Australia's Population 'Dilemma '

[fou_bleu]

Today in Society and Culture at school we got talking about the proposed two-child policy brought about by the new 'Stop Population Growth Now' party that was formed back in April.

Here is a little article with a quick overview of the situation to get you up-to-date: http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/n...-1225859631610

My question is, what are your thoughts? Hopefully I can get a decent response so I can use the data in an assignment due in a few weeks...

[fou_bleu]

PS: Sorry this poll closes so soon, but like I said, it's for an assignment...

[AndrewR_AUII]

If you look at the issues we have now such as water supplies and the cost of housing, it makes me think that things are showing signs of being at their limit already.

We have other countries purchasing 'our' farm land, cities continue to grow into farming areas (or they do in Adelaide particularly around Virginia and Mt Barker).
We then look at the dwindling fossil fuels, and how they may be replaced. There is a trend toward biofuels such as bio-ethanol... now we need crops not only to feed ourselves but our cars as well...and the water for these crops...

Also look at the debate over the River Murray - about the balance of water allocations between the farmers and those downstream and leaving enough so that some ends up flushing out to sea...

[XWGT]

I think everyone looks at the issue of population from the wrong angle.

Australia can sustain an enormous population..........if we are prepared to spend the $ to build the infrastructure required to support it. If we are not prepared to do that then logically it means our population will be limited in some form

[SVR73]

Originally Posted by XWGT

I think everyone looks at the issue of population from the wrong angle.

Australia can sustain an enormous population..........if we are prepared to spend the $ to build the infrastructure required to support it. If we are not prepared to do that then logically it means our population will be limited in some form

very well said

[Kryton]

Do we want an 'enormous' population though?
If i wanted to live in a city that has the current population of Australia, id move to the U.S.

[sandmanls1]

our road network and infrastructure is already farked look at trying to get into Melb Airport of the Tulla on a Monday morning.. Govt either has to start spending money or limit immigration.

[tranquilized]

I agree with the 2 child policy, I'd agree with any policy that aims to reduce population actually

Originally Posted by davway

Do we want an 'enormous' population though?
If i wanted to live in a city that has the current population of Australia, id move to the U.S.

Why the U.S.? Only two US cities (NYC & LA) have larger populations than Melbourne and Sydney.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The extension of that is the increasing concentration of corporate head offices in Capital city CBD's...

Regional business centres need to be placed and encouraged in regional/ outer suburban areas to encourage population growth/concentration away from CBD's...
Peoples pre-occupation with needing to live near CBD's creates all kinds of issues including traffic congestion, population crowding etc....

I agree with pretty much everything you've said there - we need to spread the population out more. But at the same time our cities need denser populations in the inner areas to combat urban sprawl. Obviously the infastructure isn't there right now to support that, but conversly thats mostly to do with the sparse population densities. (compared with other cities around the world)

Melbourne is one of the largest cities in the world geographically speaking, but about 91st in terms of population.

[Iggypoppin']

Agreed. When I used to drive, it was a nightmare on south road, even with the upgrades to Anzac highway and other spots, i just don't think Adelaide can support much more traffic as a result of population growth unless something is done. Little off topic but it's relevant.

[XR6TCraig]

Instead of the government limiting population growth by legislating against more than a certain number of kids for its current citizens and dictating population growth that way, perhaps it should look at it's current immigration policies and amend these. I'm kind of over the government trying to save me from myself! If I can afford to have these kids and my partner and I can have kids, why does the government feel the need to butt into things which have nothing to do with them while letting in enough immigrants every year to fill the MCG several times over!

[flappist]

The problem is concentration of people.

If there were some way of ensuring that the newcomers don't just fall into the "ethnic ghettos" in the major cities and got out into the rest of Australia maybe it would be a good thing.

There is lots of land and lots of opportunity out in the bush. All it needs is some way to entice the newcomers out there.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is concentration of people.

If there were some way of ensuring that the newcomers don't just fall into the "ethnic ghettos" in the major cities and got out into the rest of Australia maybe it would be a good thing.

There is lots of land and lots of opportunity out in the bush. All it needs is some way to entice the newcomers out there.

The extension of that is the increasing concentration of corporate head offices in Capital city CBD's...

Regional business centres need to be placed and encouraged in regional/ outer suburban areas to encourage population growth/concentration away from CBD's...
Peoples pre-occupation with needing to live near CBD's creates all kinds of issues including traffic congestion, population crowding etc....

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is concentration of people.

If there were some way of ensuring that the newcomers don't just fall into the "ethnic ghettos" in the major cities and got out into the rest of Australia maybe it would be a good thing.

There is lots of land and lots of opportunity out in the bush. All it needs is some way to entice the newcomers out there.

Get the proper infrastructure out into the other areas and people (including me) will go.

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Get the proper infrastructure out into the other areas and people (including me) will go.

If you build it, they will come sort of style?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by FTE72

If you build it, they will come sort of style?

Nail, head, hit

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by FTE72

If you build it, they will come sort of style?

Well thats exactly what I did with my family this year.

I moved from the Melbourne suburbs to a very quiet rural historical town, 30 minutes drive from a major rural town.

I have been able to move my professional employment as has my wife, and our eldest son has moved his apprenticeship easily.

Our disposable income is the same if not better as wages did not drop significantly and our quality of life is through the roof. I have gone from commuting on the Monash Freeway every day to the corporate office to cruise control for 30 minutes and would be lucky to see 5 cars on my commute. I could however catch the train or bus if I needed to quite easily.

The services we have given up are few. Specialist medical care, a wider variety of shopping, sports and entertainment are now 1 hour and 30 minutes away to the Melbourne CBD (less if we dont need to go into the city). We have done that once so far to see Metallica and will probably do it once more for Xmas shopping. In reality it would have taken 60 - 75 minutes to commute to the CBD anyway living in the Melbourne SE suburbs.

The pay off is now 10 acres of land instead of 800sqm, less than half of our city mortgage, great neighbours, zero traffic, great historical town, access to great camping and 4WD areas, access to great regional areas.

So why does it work? As someone pointed out, concentration is the key.

You need to be able to work, live and play in regional areas without having to return to the suburbs or CBD. As I posted earlier, that means infrastructure. Water, power, roads, schooles, hospitals...........that are NOT in the suburbs. That is the investment equation required to increase population and sustain it.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is concentration of people.

If there were some way of ensuring that the newcomers don't just fall into the "ethnic ghettos" in the major cities and got out into the rest of Australia maybe it would be a good thing.

There is lots of land and lots of opportunity out in the bush. All it needs is some way to entice the newcomers out there.

It doesn't work and it has been tried .
I remember a scheme in W.A was tried giving free housing to asian immagrants to stay in those rural area's and every single one of them over time moved to sydney or melbourne to pretty much all the same suburbs to .
You need to move whole communities unfortunately

[Fled74]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is concentration of people.

If there were some way of ensuring that the newcomers don't just fall into the "ethnic ghettos" in the major cities and got out into the rest of Australia maybe it would be a good thing.

There is lots of land and lots of opportunity out in the bush. All it needs is some way to entice the newcomers out there.

This.
I was going to post, but Flappist read my mind.

[Mickxr8]

australia cannot support any more population growth.
the infrastructure needed now should have been started about 10-15 yrs ago.

the rest of my opinions wont pass the aff t+c`s

[SM1DY]

Take a look at the 'How Many People Can Live on Planet Earth?' doco. It was posted by another member not long ago and it can give you an interesting insight into the future of population growth, resource endowment and water scarcity.

Part 1 of 6 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF15YAvT9G0

[Raptor]

I voted for the 2 kids (though that could even be one too many ;) )

Also this isn't Australia's Population 'Dilemma' - it's the worlds!!!

Any thought that Australia can contain the impact here without regards to what's going on in the rest of the world is just rubbish.

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I voted for the 2 kids (though that could even be one too many ;) )

Also this isn't Australia's Population 'Dilemma' - it's the worlds!!!

Any thought that Australia can contain the impact here without regards to what's going on in the rest of the world is just rubbish.

I hear you Raptor and agree 100%, but the basis of this opinion poll is Australia by itself, because although the world's population definitely needs to stop growing, at least at its current rate, many believe Australia can still take some more though...

[Jim Goose]

Amazing how the thread turns into a debate about immigration...... how predictable.

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Amazing how the thread turns into a debate about immigration...... how predictable.

Well that's a factor towards our growth is it not? Realistically I am only taking out the numbers for a simple data comparison, but I think this is just interesting to see what peoples real opinions are...

[FGII-XR6]

when part of the question is to limit immigration even someone with an IQ of 25 would expect part of the debate to be immigration. When there are only 2 options and the other one is population control ( think China here) the best choice is a no brainer.
The question asked was not should we limit immigration but which option would work the best. out of the 2 options presented immigration control has the lowest human rights impact
Remember this is a school assignment and the options were set by the teacher not by Fordman6. Funny thing is when I saw the question I was wondering how many posts would be required for a left wing, immigration at all costs, post to appear

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Amazing how the thread turns into a debate about immigration...... how predictable.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

when part of the question is to limit immigration even someone with an IQ of 25 would expect part of the debate to be immigration. When there are only 2 options and the other one is population control ( think China here) the best choice is a no brainer.
The question asked was not should we limit immigration but which option would work the best. out of the 2 options presented immigration control has the lowest human rights impact
Remember this is a school assignment and the options were set by the teacher not by Fordman6. Funny thing is when I saw the question I was wondering how many posts would be required for a left wing, immigration at all costs, post to appear

Did you bother to read the stats i put up from the bureau of statistics?\
And your pathetic left wing jibe is also predicable... once you realise the difference between right and wrong and the difference between left wing/ right wing then people are able to have a decent discussion.
And before you bother to go on and on and tell me im a left winger in my thinking, my parents migrated to this country.
This is a country made up of migrants....

[JC]

Australia is big enough physically to fit the same population as USA. I guess our habitable space is a bit less, but we should still be able to grow - we just need more than 3 major cities.

[Adamz Ghia]

It's not as simple as limiting the number of kids we have but, we've got to consider the gender mix, as when you limit us to, say 2 kids, they've gotta be popping out as close to a 50/50 mix as you can get. There's also the couples or people who chose not to have kids, can't have kids, or stay single. If we limit us to 2 kids and this happens, then instantly the next gneration or two, even three is smaller and we have to have another population boom to correct things again.

Those numbers are true- at current trends. If you limit the re population to two kids, and lets say out of that generation it's a 55 men/45female split, instantly the next generation is smaller as there's a smaller number of females to have another two kids. Or lets say just 1% of that generation chose not to have kids, and then 1% of their kids ect chose not to or can't have kids, each generation will get smaller. Then we have the homosexual community, in a society where kids are limited to two, they most likely wouldn't be able (even allowed) to adopt, so again, the pool for reproduction is smaller.

China is a gret example on a small scale. Small might even be the wrong word to use as they make up 1/6th of our population.

Also, the cats and dogs point raises another issue. For many breeds of cats and dogs, the gene pool is getting smaller and a side effect of this more and more genetic problems are surfacing in breeds that never previously had issues. Same would happen, it would just take longer with us.

Tswo of my posts from another population thread on why child limits will not work. All w ecan do is give incentives for people to have smaller families...

[fmc351]

Immigration is the only answer we have to the current aging population issues we face. Im not sure where else you find a ready supply of adults. It can bring with it its own problems, but there are additional benefits too.

The European migrants during the 40's and 50's brought with them some much needed skills. They added a diversity, Im not talking multiculturalism, simply culture. I dont know about you, but I like a good pizza, kebab, dim sim. Let alone the restaurant scene with more traditional dishes that burgeoned with that influx. The impact on Aussie cuisine has been tremendous. And thats just food.

The 70's and 80's was not different than than the anti-immigration nonsense that is proposed now. I hate to use the word, but it was 'wogs' this and 'gooks' that. Its funny though, some of those speaking about current migrants, come from those backgrounds too.

Flappist is right about the concentrations of populations. I agree if there was a willingness to mix more, there might be less issues. My Mrs is from a Maltese background (she was born here, her mum in Malta, her dads English), her family have always been more Aussie than Malt or English, but still very Malt and English if that makes sense.


Directly on point, I like living in a nation where the entire population is smaller than many major cities around the world. I find capital cities in Aus too crowded.

[74_XB_Ute]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Immigration is the only answer we have to the current aging population issues we face. Im not sure where else you find a ready supply of adults. It can bring with it its own problems, but there are additional benefits too.

The European migrants during the 40's and 50's brought with them some much needed skills. They added a diversity, Im not talking multiculturalism, simply culture. I dont know about you, but I like a good pizza, kebab, dim sim. Let alone the restaurant scene with more traditional dishes that burgeoned with that influx. The impact on Aussie cuisine has been tremendous. And thats just food.

The 70's and 80's was not different than than the anti-immigration nonsense that is proposed now. I hate to use the word, but it was 'wogs' this and 'gooks' that. Its funny though, some of those speaking about current migrants, come from those backgrounds too.

Flappist is right about the concentrations of populations. I agree if there was a willingness to mix more, there might be less issues. My Mrs is from a Maltese background (she was born here, her mum in Malta, her dads English), her family have always been more Aussie than Malt or English, but still very Malt and English if that makes sense.


Directly on point, I like living in a nation where the entire population is smaller than many major cities around the world. I find capital cities in Aus too crowded.

Agree entirely. Plus migrants are prepared to do the jobs that most Aussies consider not worth getting outa bed for. Hell some Aussies dont get out of bed anyway and we pay them for it. But thats another topic