if you were an employer...

[creative]

I wonder if u guys could shed a bit of light / opinion on a discussion I am currently having with a friend.

She is 18, not had a great start to life but has now sorted herself out and is thinking long term. She has no qualifications to speak of but enrolled in a graphic design course as she has amazing drawing skills but only basic computer knowledge, eg Photoshop etc.

I've suggested she looks to do some unpaid work for a graphic design company so she can see what the real life job is about and not just what she is taught in a classroom.. now the job could be anything, just so long as its with a company that is the kind of thing she wants to do.

She thinks that no one would look twice at her until she has been on the course longer... I saw give it a go, what has she got to lose!

So I guess my question would be if, presented to you in the right way, would you consider giving a person a chance?

[The Yeti]

I'd happlily look at some one still training for a cadetship or even unskilled but as an asistance role if the work load permitted

[creative]

Now that's what I think. It would be a full load to take on but it boils down to how much you want it.

I say if she is straight up with the potential business owner in her abilities and has the hunger to learn... its a win win!

[kaniSS]

Tell her to throw on a pair of stilettos, a skirt and a tight top. She will get any graphic design job she wants.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by kaniSS

Tell her to throw on a pair of stilettos, a skirt and a tight top. She will get any graphic design job she wants.

I can see the funny side to that but thats a sexual harassment/discrimination suit waiting to happen.

[madwag]

Originally Posted by creative

Now that's what I think. It would be a full load to take on but it boils down to how much you want it.

I say if she is straight up with the potential business owner in her abilities and has the hunger to learn... its a win win!

With anything in life, if you want it bad enough, you will get it. But if you don't want it bad enough, you wont get it. Its how i motivate my self.

[blueoval]

Im one of the directors in my company.

I can see what you are saying and it can be a good idea to display your skills and show what your made of unpaid. It can show some real tenacity and seriousness if you as a person have the confidence in yourself to show your true character and your work ethic. For some business owners this sort of tactic can work.

I get half a dozen calls a month with expressions of looking for employment and often I will decline due to lack of time, or work to give them, nothing to do with their skill level. When I am ready to hire though, the person that can inspire good work ethic will get the job.

[creative]

Originally Posted by blueoval

Im one of the directors in my company.

I can see what you are saying and it can be a good idea to display your skills and show what your made of unpaid. It can show some real tenacity and seriousness if you as a person have the confidence in yourself to show your true character and your work ethic. For some business owners this sort of tactic can work.

I get half a dozen calls a month with expressions of looking for employment and often I will decline due to lack of time, or work to give them, nothing to do with their skill level. When I am ready to hire though, the person that can inspire good work ethic will get the job.

Exactly. It would obviously be company dependent and being at the right place at the right time.

I have also done this when I was boss in the uk and I never regretted any people I gave a chance to, in fact they turned out to be some of my best workers!

She has nothing to lose, literally, but what she has got is the drive to better herself. She has done it tough and just getting on this course was a task in itself.

Once this thread has a few more replies I will be showing it to her, just to prove that companies and business people do give people a chance!

[Mr Brooksy]

Its hard to find people that are "self starters", most want to be told "do this, do that"... and if they find they have nothing to do they will sit around doing nothing.

If someone presented to me who is self motivated, driven, track record of being reliable and has integrity, I'd hire them in an instant.

Because at the end of the day its the person, not the paper that counts.

However our organisation is in a very different field.

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Its hard to find people that are "self starters", most want to be told "do this, do that"... and if they find they have nothing to do they will sit around doing nothing.

If someone presented to me who is self motivated, driven, track record of being reliable and has integrity, I'd hire them in an instant.

Because at the end of the day its the person, not the paper that counts.

However our organisation is in a very different field.

You and me think on the same levels Mr Brooksy. Often I find too many who are more motivated by the $ amount than with the actual work they produce. The passion for what they do has diminished and this translate to the quality they give you.

Ive been caught out with 'green' people fresh out of school or tafe who just want the cash, and are not willing to learn anything, nor do they care. It's reflected in their work ethic and the attitude towards it. Not all new people are like this, but for every 1 person who has this 'integrity, self motivation and passion for the work they do', there are 10 people who just want a job to just get paid and don't care for accountability. It's sifting through these ones to find the gem of an employee that gets frustrating.

Im not saying that I want some pleb at my beckoned call to do unreasonable things as I please for slave wages. I am a person who like to rewards those willing to put in and I am happy to remunerate the right person who has the right attitude and is a team player.

Creative - it sounds like your friend may have the right attitude. I hope it works out well for her and she is willing to have a go.

[creative]

Originally Posted by blueoval

You and me think on the same levels Mr Brooksy. Often I find too many who are more motivated by the $ amount than with the actual work they produce. The passion for what they do has diminished and this translate to the quality they give you.

Ive been caught out with 'green' people fresh out of school or tafe who just want the cash, and are not willing to learn anything, nor do they care. It's reflected in their work ethic and the attitude towards it. Not all new people are like this, but for every 1 person who has this 'integrity, self motivation and passion for the work they do', there are 10 people who just want a job to just get paid and don't care for accountability. It's sifting through these ones to find the gem of an employee that gets frustrating.

Im not saying that I want some pleb at my beckoned call to do unreasonable things as I please for slave wages. I am a person who like to rewards those willing to put in and I am happy to remunerate the right person who has the right attitude and is a team player.

Creative - it sounds like your friend may have the right attitude. I hope it works out well for her and she is willing to have a go.

Thanks blue oval.

It's been hard for her but her determination gets stronger every day.

I'm fortunate my life hasn't been anything like hers and I am in a position to help where I can. Sometimes people just need to see that there are people, companies and organizations that will help, you just have to ask!

[Torment47]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Its hard to find people that are "self starters"

Because at the end of the day its the person, not the paper that counts.
.

I agree with you on the "Paper" thing, but i've been with Company's that Wan't motivated people who are "willing" and company's that don't really look at you as a person but see what your Paper has to say about you and if you have skill/qualification etc etc...

So if it helps, Have both? but i wouldn't put too much on the paper as it may bore them... and i find reference's the best to help the employer to decide.

[xisled]

In the graphic design industry if she struggles with computer skills she will get no where.

Her best bet is to get her skills on the computer up to scratch.

My brother is a graphic designer and 99% of his work is done by programs. If he did not he would not be 1 of only 3 who do his job in the world.

In the classroom most teachers have the contacts in the industry, that is how my brother started off.

[creative]

Originally Posted by xisled

In the graphic design industry if she struggles with computer skills she will get no where.

Her best bet is to get her skills on the computer up to scratch.

My brother is a graphic designer and 99% of his work is done by programs. If he did not he would not be 1 of only 3 who do his job in the world.

In the classroom most teachers have the contacts in the industry, that is how my brother started off.

It's not that she struggles, she just hasn't had chance to use them. She now has an all singing Mac for the first time and is working her way around it. Once she understands what she needs to do, I think she will pick it up as she has the artistic eye.

[xisled]

Once she has the skills with the computer, get her to speak to the teachers. No one with in the graphic design industry will look at her until she has proven her self. She would struggle to get into a company to get expirence without any courses.

[kocho]

As a Graphic Designer who is self employed (and therefore I run my own business), if she doesn't know how to design using the computer, it's extremely tough to get anywhere.

If she hasn't had a chance to use programs, then sign up to TAFE (which I see she has done) and do a Graphic Design course. It's very similar to a work environment. Much closer than Uni.

Problem for her is Graphic Design is a very competitive industry.

If she has any questions, I'll be happy to help answer them. Send me a PM and I can pass on my email.

[svo supporter]

Isn't there a problem associated with doing unpaid work, not being allowed anymore at her age? Something to do with OH&S rules, work cover etc etc.

I'm aware of work experience being available, but that covers people under the age of 18.

Might be worth checking into before going too far.

IMA, I'm all for her trying to get a job anyways possible. The start in life has nothing to do with prospective employment, unless she has a criminal history and wants a job which requires police clearance.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Isn't there a problem associated with doing unpaid work, not being allowed anymore at her age? Something to do with OH&S rules, work cover etc etc.

I'm aware of work experience being available, but that covers people under the age of 18.

Might be worth checking into before going too far.

IMA, I'm all for her trying to get a job anyways possible. The start in life has nothing to do with prospective employment, unless she has a criminal history and wants a job which requires police clearance.

Unpaid work is fine, it is seen by workcover the same way they see volunteers. She would still be covered for any workplace injuries the same as any other employee. The only time you might upset Fair Work Australia is if she is unpaid for over 6 months, and only then if it is brought to their attention.

[ego gtp]

You can always offer her a week or two pay on minimum wage that would cover any work cover and OH&S issues. That way you would also learn if they are keen and would be a benefit to your business. Work ethic and enthusiasm is just as important as experience just my 2cents worth cheers Gary

[TheSneakiness]

It would depend on how much work I had available. Of course I'm for giving anyone a go but if I can't keep them busy enough for a day without letting their minds wander onto other things I won't exercise the idea.

Many, many young kids nowadays would find it hard to get a foot in somewhere because most employers look for someone who has the experience to hit the ground running.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

Many, many young kids nowadays would find it hard to get a foot in somewhere because most employers look for someone who has the experience to hit the ground running.

Unfortunately a lot of younger generation are lazy so and so's. This makes it extremely difficult for the geniune ones to get that foot in the door to begin with.

I have found this with where I work. I've been there 18 months and we have been through half a dozen under 20 year olds. Can't hack the pace.

I'm not insinuating the OP's friend is one of these type, so please don't think that. Just putting it out there, how employers can think and why they may find it difficult.

[wrongwaynorris]

Absolutely , anyone knocking on my door asking to work is already one step ahead .

[distortion]

I'm self employed as a Graphic Designer/Web Designer/Sign writer. Unfortunately knowing you're computer programs is pretty essential - and it takes more than just a few weeks to KNOW them... To be worth the big bucks that everyone wants, you need to be able to turn your creativity into results efficiently, and knowing how to do things that others dont, is what allows you to market yourself.

My advice - learn the programs - Adobe creative suite (learn ALL), then learn some specialist programs, such as Lightwave 3D, Flexisign Pro, or web design software. Once you have mastered a wide range of computer skills, you are then much more employable and flexible. Those that specialise in just one area of GD find it extremely hard to compete - as most tend to specialise, rather than diversify.

Getting work experience with an older GD helped me lots - however the older generation of GD's tend to do things slow and inefficient because they do not upgrade their skills. Learn the skills at Tafe (NOT UNI!!!) then do some work experience at a design studio or with a mid-weight designer who is self employed. You will be scanner boy(or girl) for a while, or do weeks of clipping paths etc, but its those skills that will allow you to get work!

One final thought - collect anything that inspires you. Whether it be nice fonts, photo's, designs, websites, animations etc etc. Having an inspiration folder will help you during the times where people are screaming for results, and you dont have that idea in the back of your head ready to go.

Skills and experience help get you a job, reliability, attitude and being there on time, every time, is what keeps you a job.

[302 XC]

Coming from an engineering back ground
We had every new green over educated draftsperson we could get our hands on,fresh from tafe
Most wouldnt know 1 thing from the other in the real world
They have no movement in their training outside of a book, and it does get annoying when you try and teach them something different or that what you want them to do , doesnt come from a text in a book
On the factory floor we had more untrained,hands on experienced people than those with papers or trained from a book
Id rather employ someone who is enthusiastic and wants a job and is willing to learn and move forward in life, than some trumped up text book upstart

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Coming from an engineering back ground
We had every new green over educated draftsperson we could get our hands on,fresh from tafe
Most wouldnt know 1 thing from the other in the real world
They have no movement in their training outside of a book, and it does get annoying when you try and teach them something different or that what you want them to do , doesnt come from a text in a book
On the factory floor we had more untrained,hands on experienced people than those with papers or trained from a book
Id rather employ someone who is enthusiastic and wants a job and is willing to learn and move forward in life, than some trumped up text book upstart

There is no substitute for real world experience and that is something you cannot teach from a text book. A lot of my experience came from being on site, speaking to trades, seeing how things were done on site most efficiently than what a book told you to do.

Yes the text books are there to help you get your degree, but the knowledge & experience you get from seeing how its done and learning from those who are already in the trade is priceless.

Again, being diversified & willing in what you learn with REAL LIFE jobs rather than what is taught in a class room is the key.

[distortion]

Originally Posted by 302 XC

Coming from an engineering back ground
We had every new green over educated draftsperson we could get our hands on,fresh from tafe
Most wouldnt know 1 thing from the other in the real world
They have no movement in their training outside of a book, and it does get annoying when you try and teach them something different or that what you want them to do , doesnt come from a text in a book
On the factory floor we had more untrained,hands on experienced people than those with papers or trained from a book
Id rather employ someone who is enthusiastic and wants a job and is willing to learn and move forward in life, than some trumped up text book upstart

Whilst I agree with most of what you say, with GD and other designy jobs, the key is balance. You simply cannot wake up one morning and start being a graphic designer. You need to know the basics of the tools first, and work up to the position you want (I'm sure that is similar in your trade). The problem most industries have is that the students do not get real life experience...

I'd rather hire someone with experience backed up with proven knowledge (from education) than someone who has no proven education. If both have the same attitudes etc..

We probably both agree - green with no hands on knowledge sucks.

[Shonky.]

Without going into the specifics of the chosen industry (cause I don't know squat about it) the whole motivated self starter thing definately pays off. But the upshot is you need to be that person, not just have had people convincing you to present yourself as that person.

The types of people who decide to go and do that themselves (front up and ask to be given a chance) also have the type of personality that ensure once they have got that chance they will continue with that drive, confidence and indeed carisma to overcome other shortages.

I am not trying to be negative, just saying that the OP probably needs to try and help this girl with her confidence and make her want to go and do it, rather than just talk her into doing it.

I have had people approach me trying to get a first go, but sometimes they might as well say "my Dad/friend/brother said I should come ask you if I can get some work experience here"

Supposedly Elle Macpherson got her first modeling job by walking into the agency in her underwear, doing a lap and then leaving her card.

Not saying your friend should do that

[creative]

Thanks for the input guys..

In regards to knowing the computer programs, I completely agree, that's why I said ANY job within a company, just so she can see what she is to expect. I don't and neither does she, expect to go in and do designs etc as if she knows everything.

There is no training like on the job training in my opinion.

As for helping her. I am doing just that. One thing I never do is carry someone or tell them what they should be doing. If she tries and fails, it's due to her own merits and she learns from the experience. She needs to develope her own skills, all she needs is a push in the right direction as this side of life is new to her. I offer advice and if she chooses to listen, that's great, if not, it's her choice.

[trippytaka]

Interestingly most of the receptionists here (public relations agency) have a degree in event management or similar and are looking for a break into the industry.

I have heard of unpaid work paying off for a number of people. I did a few placements when I was at uni to get something on my resume, and some references too. It's the way the world works a lot of the time, and you have to do it. So I say yep, go for it. But best apply through the uni/TAFE program - that way you come with assurance to the employer and also helps clear a few insurance issues.

[HLC]

Take it from me.. I am a qualified Industrial Designer, with an Honours Degree, with experience in the field.

It's not about the qualifications, it's about your skill and talent. I no longer work in that industry, because the money is BS now after the GFC, and there are too few jobs, and too many qualified people applying from them.

To get a job in Graphic Design now you really need to be something special, and even then, you'll only be looking at 40k per year at best. Especially in the Eastern States.

If she has her heart set on doing this, she needs to be practising practising practising refining those skills, and presenting herself differently to everybody else. And that is learning as many programs/suites as possible, and being able to use them beyond a basic level.

YES, to offering free services. It's the only way she will get field experience, and she may get a job out of it. But be prepared to do this for a while too, maybe across several different companies before someone pics her up.

It's tough out there, there is a reason I moved to WA and work in Operations/Supply Chain/Logistics now even though I spent 4 years at Uni, a year behind a desk as a Design Drafty and a host of private work...

In saying that, if she swaps her course over to drafting, there is always plenty of work in WA in those fields (graphic design, drafting, whatever) paying a truckload more than what youll get over the east coast.

Design work will always be a labour of love up until this Global Financial Crisis passes and everyone has cash to splash again, OR, you have your own successful business.