Building a new engine using EL bottem end.

volcom20 · 19-03-2006, 11:08 AM

Alright, well, i was ringing around for an EL engine block (6 cyl) and my local wreaker has one for 160 dollars (I almost died when I saw how cheap it was, and it's in great condition).

I plan to go and pick it up sometime within the next week. What I'm planning to do is bore it out, fully balance the whole bottem end and use forged pistons and conrods.

Anyway, anyone know how far the EL 6 cyl block can actually be bored out by? I'm hoping to get 60 thou safely.

I'm tossing up weather or not to go with forged bits and pieces, because the engine will be an N/A for atleast 3 years.

After it's bored out and fully balanced, then I'll try to find eaither A) An XR6 head, and have it ported/polished with a crow cam and all the rest of it (heavy springs etc) or B) Find a completely new aftermarket head, that a police officer wont be able to tell it apart from a stock one.

A new ECU will probably be implanted sometime after the new engine is finished, because I want to see if the stock one will even run it smoothly lol.

I was also thinking about getting some bigger, better injectors? Is there any advantage of this the engine?

Once the engine side's done it'll get all the other little goodies like K&N panel filter, 21/2" exaust, pacemakers, stally etc

As this will be my first engine build (My old mans 11th, lol, but he still has no idea), I have no idea what to expect power wise? Anyone wanna guess?

I'm basically doing this for one reason - I hate commodores :P

volcom20 · 19-03-2006, 11:09 AM

Oh, and I'm using the EL bottem end because I dont want to screw around with an AU bottem end - even if it maybe better in some aspects

snortingboost · 19-03-2006, 04:05 PM

I don't bore engines out more then 20thou. Reason being you end up loosing power through cylinder wall flex and you also run the risk of having pin holes appear between the wall and jacket. If your keeping it N/A for three years just reuse the entire standard bottom end, don't bore it out, just hone it, have the block squared up or decked and just make sure all the tollerances are up to scratch. On that bottom end put an EF head with a decent shave, a good valve job (regrind, valve springs and guides) port match the intake and exhuast as best you can, grab a crow cam to your liking, eg. strip or street put it all together with a 2 1/2 inch exhaust and run it with the standard ecu. This combo would give you enough to contend with commo 5 litres and if you have a chip done it will go even better.

ON_DUBS · 19-03-2006, 04:12 PM

whats the benefit of an xr6 head if you are changing the cam and springs?

as for the head being undetectable by the cops if they actually look under the bonnet the idle from the cam is going to give you away regardless lol. dont see why there'd be a problem though.. if you are really that concerned just use the standard head. after all whats the difference if you are replacing everything.

XRated · 19-03-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiefalcon

whats the benefit of an xr6 head if you are changing the cam and springs?

as for the head being undetectable by the cops if they actually look under the bonnet the idle from the cam is going to give you away regardless lol. dont see why there'd be a problem though.. if you are really that concerned just use the standard head. after all whats the difference if you are replacing everything.

Officer, it must be the leads or plugs - they're really old!

volcom20 · 19-03-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussiefalcon

whats the benefit of an xr6 head if you are changing the cam and springs?

as for the head being undetectable by the cops if they actually look under the bonnet the idle from the cam is going to give you away regardless lol. dont see why there'd be a problem though.. if you are really that concerned just use the standard head. after all whats the difference if you are replacing everything.

I know about the idle, but I'll never hopefully have to have the engine on while they're standing over it :P

As for the head - I'm not that concerned.

And in NSW we've been slapped with "No turbo for P platers, no V8s, no proformance mods" Since July of last year :(

This car has to do me N/A for the next 3, so I really dont want to be sitting on stock...

I've been talking to the old man, he's only ever done N/A cars (Turbo wasn't mainstream back in the day of the 71' Manaros running chevs lol), he's given my the opinion of "Liters count, that's where you start and that's where you end, liters gives your grunt. You can always bolt on a turbo and get instant horses, but a bigger engine tends to be better.". I'm not sure if it's a correct opinion.

But seeings I am limited to a 6 cyl, this seems like the best option I have for power.

I believe I can bore to 60 thou safely, the old man has always bored his engines to 40, because you "get another chance" to do it again. But that's fine for a V8, but I only have a 6 :(

Hopefully I'll get the engine to a 4.2 liter.

I have access to a EF head (i have an ef

With a good engine), are you sure it'd be the best to use on a bored block? My old man's a little off the ball, as he got all his work done back in the day and hasn't been into it much in the last 10 years, but he said it'd probably cost me more to get the stock head worked than an after market, and the proformance differance (even if I had to spend a little more) of the aftermarket would kill anything the stock, worked head could have.

Also, about the injectors - Should I upsize? And should I run a bigger fuel pump with the bigger injectors?

Is wall flex a big issue with these i6 engines when bored out 60 thou? I was told it was a safe target because the jackets still were quite far away...

and would the stocker computer run a bored out engine with altered heads and a crow cam? Or will it have trouble?

i've been refered to a Marine guy in my town to bore it and fully balance the bottem end, he goes all the marine engines, but also is a hotrodder (as well as his family) and can aparently do anything I want to any engine over there

When doing what I've stated above, are there any other mods that go hand in hand with the above that I haven't listed?

Hopefully going to grab the block on tuesday and take it across the road to this Marine fellow

Cheers for the input guys

fmc351 · 20-03-2006, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by volcom20

I believe I can bore to 60 thou safely, the old man has always bored his engines to 40, because you "get another chance" to do it again. But that's fine for a V8, but I only have a 6 :(

Dont apply holden logic to Ford. Im not sure on the E series, but x-flows only recommend bores to 40 thou.

Some old Holden 6's could go to 80 thou (179, 186 some did it to 202's), but 60 was highest recommended. It depended on block cast. At one end of the block moulds life it gave thicker water jackets, allowing the 80 thou on some blocks without compromising the bores. You could identify the right block by cast marks on the side. That was the theory anyway.

Anyway, as said above, wait on the build for turbo application. When you do go turbo, youll get a better bang for your buck if its all done then. Just run a good stocko bottom end, maybe a cam and zaust for now. If you want to, build a seperate motor and start getting the bits now, and accumulate over time so its ready in 3 years.

Just my $0.02

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 04:15 PM

if your talking about forged parts for boost, Im guessing you have got some serious plans for this engine. If so, you going to want to drop the compression down, especially if you want to use an XR6 head. So youll be building up a performance engine with ~8.5:1 compression, which is going to cost you a fair bit of power in the next 3 years while it is NA, especially if your talking about putting big cams in it.

My advice would be not to bother with the bottom end until you have the gear ready to go for boost. You might not every end up forced in which case you would have wasted a lot of $$$.

My advice: Get the exhaust done, and maybe the cam and see how it goes. From there if you want more, try a chip or ecu.

stockstandard · 19-03-2006, 09:52 PM

May i suggest a few searches on some of the questions you have. The way to getting a I6 to go fast is well understood now - exhaust, extractors, cam, chip, t5/stall, diff gears. Check the car on a dyno and see if the fuel system is keeping up and upgrade as required. You know how cheap bottom ends are - just keep a stock one while your NA and build you strong one when you get boost.

Psycho Chicken · 19-03-2006, 10:23 PM

.2 of a litre, if you can even bore it out that far, will do bugger all.

need psi · 19-03-2006, 10:45 PM

waste of time and money to build a motor for n/a then 3years later rebuild it/build another one for boost. If i was you i would keep a stock bottom end (dont see any gains of a 4.2L), get either a stock head worked or use an au head with a port and polish as these have bigger valves standard (correct me if im wrong). go a nice cam that isnt too lumpy, diff (3.9lsd - auto, 3.45lsd - man), stally if you not going manual, exhaust but get it made to be quite, extractors, hi flow cat, and k&n panel filter. elec shift kit if your game and dont mind the possibility of stuffing your trans. leave the car stock out side so you dont get hasseled from the cops. Sleeper.

What car is it going in?

Ehab

volcom20 · 20-03-2006, 12:13 PM

Ok, forget I ever said anything about turbo :P

I want a quick N/a car for the next 3 years, lets say... The quickest N/A six in my area :P

To achive this, I believe I should work the engine fully, I feel half assed just to bolt on a head with some work on it - It doesn't feel right to me. But to have a fully balanced bottem end (Crank, conrods and pistons) is a large advatage. As well as having 40thou bigger pistons than any other Ford around, is an advantage.

I've always believed you have to pick up horse power in small bits, just to slap a head on and say "I have a mean car" doesn't work. Anyone can slap on a head for cheap and go for it, but to really work an engine for N/A the block becomes a part of the picture.

To ignore the block in an NA i6 application would be silly.

I thank you all for your opinions, but it seems I'll have to do some dyno runs to prove the mods are worth it

Let me waste my money, and if you're all correct, I'll hand it to you.

But a bored out block vs a standard block, the bored should take the cake.

It's easy to say it's a waste, but have you bored out your I6 yourself and watched it on the dyno to see a differance?

I'll take before and afters (on the dyno) over this 12 months, while I work the block and heads.

I plan to turn this 6cyl into a race engine. I wish I could use a V8, because then it would actually make sense, but I'm restricted to the 6cyls, and all my state is for young drivers, so it's opened up a whole new class of N/A 6cyl compatition between me and my peers.

Stally and diff will be replaced and race suspention, the auto will stay in for atleast 12 months, and might be replaced with the new engine with a manny

I'll be interested how quick it'll go on a quarter mile with all the engine worked from top to bottem, and the trans as quick as I can get it.

You're opinions are great, and thanks for the help

I'll check back to this thread in 12 months

And inform you of the result