V6 or I6 Engine

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Paxton

It might be a Daweoo Engine, but they didn't design it. Take a guess who did.

Hyundai? :P

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Having driven an alloytec i agree with the alfa engineers....smart blokes LOL!

I wouldn't use the alloytec as a boat anchor.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Hyundai? :P


I wouldn't use the alloytec as a boat anchor.

Nope. These guys are famous for their Boxers.

[blackwood]

Porsche lol!

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by blackwood

Porsche lol!

Correct.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by Paxton

Correct.

lol, must have been the work experience kid.

[iliov]

Can't wait for the 340kw FWD V6 F6

Its gonna be a cv snapping monster.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Care to explain how a V6 vibrates more? there are 3 different firing orders commonly used for V6's.. not all V6's are "coarse".. a well balance V6 with a symetrical firing order will rev and feel as smooth as any I6.
Fords I6 has had its fair share of issues too.. its no where near as bullet proof as many make it out to be..

I believe they are pointing to the fact that it is far harder to harmonically balance two banks of cyclinders over one.

Which i happen to agree with. However, with that said, i have driven plenty of V6's (most notibly the Nissan Maxima 3500cc) which are absolutely tremendous. Bloody brilliant. Unfortunatly most of us have a sour taste in our mouth after driving the american based v6 commodores for years.

[05MkIIFutura]

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

I think this is waht everyone was talking about re: Twin Turbo Falcon V6

But Im only guessing

http://www.caradvice.com.au/10026/fo...twin-turbo-v6/

Be interesting to see people's analysis of this photo. The first person to say "But it has BA tail lights, cant be a mule!!" wins the silly award!!

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by iliov

Can't wait for the 340kw FWD V6 F6

Its gonna be a cv snapping monster.

Full throttle, you'll lose your wrists because your hands just got ripped off and are still stuck on the steering wheel.

[snappy]

Well Fella's good news I spoke to a manager at the engine plant today and he said engine plant was in closing 2010 but looks like with the fall of the aussie dollar the v6 will not cost affective to produce in the new falcon . So he said not set in concrete yet But looks like they were staying open and making the inline 6 emissions compliant. With the help of the goverments cash . I won't go in to detail but he was less than impressed by the v6 they have had there. His words (piece of 8h*t) american rubbish
needs alot of work.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Well Fella's good news I spoke to a manager at the engine plant today and he said engine plant was in closing 2010 but looks like with the fall of the aussie dollar the v6 will not cost affective to produce in the new falcon . So he said not set in concrete yet But looks like they were staying open and making the inline 6 emissions compliant. With the help of the goverments cash . I won't go in to detail but he was less than impressed by the v6 they have had there. His words (piece of 8h*t) american rubbish
needs alot of work.

That sounds quite promising Snappy, thanks for sharing.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Well Fella's good news I spoke to a manager at the engine plant today and he said engine plant was in closing 2010 but looks like with the fall of the aussie dollar the v6 will not cost affective to produce in the new falcon . So he said not set in concrete yet But looks like they were staying open and making the inline 6 emissions compliant. With the help of the goverments cash . I won't go in to detail but he was less than impressed by the v6 they have had there. His words (piece of 8h*t) american rubbish
needs alot of work.

and if the aussie dollar heads back to USD90c over the next month then we're back where we were 3 months ago... its too volatile out there at the moment to make long term plans for anything...

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Well Fella's good news I spoke to a manager at the engine plant today and he said engine plant was in closing 2010 but looks like with the fall of the aussie dollar the v6 will not cost affective to produce in the new falcon . So he said not set in concrete yet But looks like they were staying open and making the inline 6 emissions compliant. With the help of the goverments cash . I won't go in to detail but he was less than impressed by the v6 they have had there. His words (piece of 8h*t) american rubbish
needs alot of work.

The plot thickens.

You do, however have to understand the Manager's opinion towards the V6 - it may cost him his job.

I would like to hear what Bossxr8 has to say about the situation. He's our man inside.

What do we call the next Falcon then? 123 or Huntsman? Huntsman was to get the I6, 123 the V6.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

Be interesting to see people's analysis of this photo. The first person to say "But it has BA tail lights, cant be a mule!!" wins the silly award!!

If you read the article it seems the photographer was suprised about how fast it accelerated (0-100 in 5 seconds) and thouight it sounded different to the usual 245T. Since the release of FG I think its safe to say that car was just another Orion mule.

[snappy]

You do, however have to understand the Manager's opinion towards the V6 - it may cost him his job

He made no secret of this.

Also in my above post he said it needs alot of work which they had been doing to bring to a standard to replace they i6 hence an upgrade not a downgrade . Also we were discussing but were cut short before we finished our discussion the falcon is ready to built in left hand drive.
But he had his doubts about this.

and if the aussie dollar heads back to USD90c over the next month then we're back where we were 3 months ago... its too volatile out there at the moment to make long term plans for anything...

That why nothing set in concrete . He said they waiting dissions from higher up the ladder to start work.

[Falc'man]

Thanks for the news snappy84.

Making it compliant to EuroIV, this means all-alloy, yeah? And I think maybe Ford are more willing to go ahead with it since the government is willing to help out...

[boris]

Engine Smoothness

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Inline 6-cylinder engines


As shown in the picture, straight-6 engine is simply two 3-cylinder engines mated symmetrically together, thus piston 1 is always in the same position as piston 6, piston 2 the same as piston 5 .... in other words, the engine is balanced end-to-end and requires no balancer shaft, unlike 3-cylinder engines.
What about vertical / transverse forces? like 3-cylinder engines, the vertical and transverse forces generated by individual cylinders, no matter first order or second order, are completely balanced by one another. The resultant vibration is nearly zero, thus inline-6 is virtually a perfect configuration.

Inline-6 is not the only configuration can deliver near perfect refinement, but it is the most compact one among them. All boxer engines are perfectly balanced, but they are two wide and require duplicate of blocks, heads and valve gears. V12 engines also achieve perfect balance, but obviously out of the reach of most mass production cars. Automotive engineers knew that long ago, that’s why you can see most of the best classic engines were inline-6, such as Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost, Bentley Speed Six, Mercedes SSK, many Bugattis, Jaguar XK-series and BMW’s various models.


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V6 engines
V6 engines, excluding Volkswagen’s 15° VR6 (to be discussed later), are not just made from splitting inline-6 into two banks arranged in V-shape. A V6 has a very different crankshaft - only 4 main bearings instead of 7. In other words, between two adjacent bearings there are crank throws for 2 cylinders, one from bank A and another from bank B. While V8 engines have those 2 cylinders shared the same crank pin, V6 engine has to split the crank pin into two pieces, with a splay angle between those pins (30° splay angle for 90° V6; 60° splay angle for 60° V6). These are shown in below.
60° V6 with 60° splay angle
90° V6 with 30° splay angle
Split crank pins with
a 30° splay angle

For better balance, most V6s are arranged such that the banks are placed at either 60° or 90° to each other. In this way, the movement of cylinders in bank A matches those in bank B, thus there is no vibration generated between banks. Besides, like 3-cylinder engines, there is no vertical and transverse vibration.
However, both 60° or 90° V6s have somewhat end-to-end vibration like 3-cylinder engines, especially is for 90° V6. (sorry, I don’t have the theory) It needs a counter-rotating single balancer shaft, at crank speed, to suppress the vibration. The balancer shaft is located inside the V-valley, so it is not space engaging. On the other hand, 90° V6 has a decisive advantage in production point of view - it can be machined in V8’s production line because both of them are 90°. (unlike V6, V8 can only be optimised at 90°) This save a lot of production cost. An example is Mercedes’ supersmooth 2.4 to 3.2-litre V6s, which share the same architecture with V8s but added with a balancer shaft.

End-to-end vibration
Single balancer shaft inside the V-valley

60° V6 is smoother to the extent that, with adequate design engine mount, most of them could be made nearly as smooth as inline-6 engines without the need of balancer shaft. It is also narrower, so easier to be packaged into a FWD cars, mounted transversely.

60° V6 versus Inline-6

As space efficiency becomes more and more important, most car makers favour V6. The most influential V6 was perhaps Alfa Romeo’s 2.5-litre 60° V6 used in the GTV6. It established a reputation for V6 that it can be compact, powerful and smooth. An equivalent inline-6 would have never fit the small and sloping engine compartment of that car. Compare the shape of BMW with the Alfa and you’ll know the packaging advantage of V6s.

Straight-six engines are nearly impossible to be used in front-wheel drive cars as well. Even a car as wide as Volvo S80 has to introduce the world’s shortest gearbox in order to make space for the 2.9-litre straight-six mounted transversely in the engine compartment.

Longitudinal mounted inline-6 doesn’t have such problems, but it engages too much space in north-south direction, thus engage some space which would have contributed to cockpit room.

However, BMW is still loyal to inline-6 engines. Ultimately, inline-6 engine is more efficient yet smoother. V6 has more energy loss because it duplicates valve gears and camshafts (which increase frictional loss), while the use of 2 cylinder banks leads to more heat loss. In terms of production cost, although V6 has 3 fewer main bearings, it has more valve gears - which is getting more and more costly these days, with the introduction of twin-cam, hydraulic tappets / finger follower and variable valve timing. Inline-6 is going to be cheaper than equivalent V6.

Continue ...

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Copyright© 1998-2000 by Mark Wan
AutoZine Technical School
Return to AutoZine home page

[whatever]

I think the barra donk would be a perfect recipient of krudds grant. Keeps jobs and money locally guaranteed ("green" jobs at that). Is the F150s engine bay long enough to accept it? Would be a great application.

[DoreSlamR]

Hmmm it would be good news if the decide to keep the I6.

Is the government still throwing money at Toyota Japan? All the money should be given to Ford Australia and Holden.
It makes sense to prop up our own motor industry and not overseas companies.

[Bossxr8]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g59/Bossxr8/V6.jpg

This is one reason the V6 is being a hard thing to fit to the Falcon, the inlet manifold is very high causing bonnet clearance issues. This is the ecoboost version which may not make it here.

Its also nowhere near as good as the I6 is in terms of torque and refinement.

I think pigs will fly before the I6 continues after 2010. Its had no development work on it for more than 18 months, and most of the engine development engineers have lost their jobs and gone elsewhere.

It would need direct injection to be emissions compliant, and that is a big job requiring a whole new cylinder head and top end. Big $$$$$. DI can cut emissions by 25%, that may be enough to get it Euro 4 compliant. Alloy blocks have been trialled before apparently but the soft alloy clogged up all the machine tools in the block line, and would require a big spend on tooling. But time isn't Fords friend and they already have a government exemption to keep the I6 in the Territory and FG, and the exemption runs out in July 2010. If its not compliant by then it can't legally continue on sale.

I seriously doubt it, as far as we know and have been told its lights out July 2010, and there have been no indications that say otherwise.

[Falc'man]

The final nail in the coffin that last post.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

The final nail in the coffin that last post.

Stranger things have happened, and it would be awesome to see the I6 continue, but in reality the chances are slim to none.

[snappy]

I don't what to think of what i was told today the fell'a seemed pretty genuine . oh well it a worry

[PoweredByCNG]

Boy would I love to see a 4.0L I6 with a factory-fitted LPG Liquid Injection system. Would put everything else to shame!

Regards,
Dave

[snappy]

Originally Posted by snappy84

I don't what to think of what i was told today the fell'a seemed pretty genuine . oh well it a worry

I don't know what to think about i was told today the fell'a seemed pretty genuine. oh well its a worry




Now that makes a little bit more sense . Sorry boys to slow to edit

[Gobes32]

If money is the issue then surely the government grants is going to be a factor in the choice to forge ahead or drop the motor. If the motor is made direct injection lpg and it makes the same power as petrol, it uses as much gas as a petrol motor, and it has the same drive ability as the petrol motor but costs half as much to run then the average punter would have to be a moron to buy anything else. 600 people paying 200 a week in tax equals 120k a week and over 60 million a year. If the government wants to keep receiving those dollars rather than paying them a dole cheque each fortnight, then it is in their best interests to help Ford oz bring the venerable crossflow up to the world standard we all think it is.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Stranger things have happened, and it would be awesome to see the I6 continue, but in reality the chances are slim to none.

I think they're getting bigger.

Check your contacts to see what the latest status of 123 is _2:

[Ricks_Xr6t]

Originally Posted by data_mine

No matter your thoughts on ricers, the RB and 2J I6's are pretty darn good too.

The I6 is a superior design. The V6 is a result of a series of compromises, mainly packaging requirements (it's physically smaller thus easier to stick into smaller cars, easier to put behind the front axle). It's downsides include horrible harmonics, that require extra rotating mass (balance shaft) to even out.

I don't see how the Ford V6 will be a step forward, in the Mazda CX9 it's a thirsty slow waste of time.

And for the commodore aswell mate....

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

I think they're getting bigger.

Check your contacts to see what the latest status of 123 is _2:

...and this post just pried that nail back out. If you don't mind me asking, what's going on?

[Bossxr8]

I heard rumours a few weeks back that the straight 6 would continue until 2013 because thats when Ford Australia will cease to exist, and by not switching to a V6 it would save them development money and make it easier to shut the whole place down as one, not engine and casting plant first and then stamping/PD and Broady a few years later. It was only a rumour and could have been BS but to do that they would need a further 3 years added to the emmissions exemption they already have to use the I6 until 2010, and wether they would be allowed to do that I don't know.

That didn't come from any official source, it was just talk, but that doesn't necessarily mean its not true.

Ford Australia and Ford HQ keep talking up FoA's future but the simple fact is that unless Detroit pumps in a whole butt load of cash for an all new Falcon in 2013 it will mean the end. Problem is sales figures for Falcon mean that another $800k-$1m just won't be enough to justify that sort of investment money cause it would take too long to make that money back.