Speed doesn’t kill...

[gtfpv]

yep speeding doesnt kill . i'm so sick of these threads . lets all start speeding and increase our speed limits and then the road statistics will come down .
why do dosile people keep putting threads like this up trying to convince everyone else that driving fast is perfectly safe / or safer than driving slow .
HOONS !!!!
I HOPE NONE HERE HAS A RELATIVE THAT SLAMS INTO A POLL FROM DRIVING LIKE AN F'WITT -- TOO fast and losing control . BUT HONESTLY GUYS, CONSTANTLY PUTTING SH I T LIKE THIS ON A FORUM is insane .
WHATS YOUR POINT ????
DO you think we are going to be able to drive faster one day just by the click of a finger .
our speed limits are set by our road conditions and environment design .
if you want to safely drive faster , go to a race tack or move overseas .
and get over it . driving like an F WIT - and going too fast will kill you and others that you take out .
stop refuting this fact .

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

yep speeding doesnt kill . i'm so sick of these threads . lets all start speeding and increase our speed limits and then the road statistics will come down .
why do dosile people keep putting threads like this up trying to convince everyone else that driving fast is perfectly safe / or safer than driving slow .
HOONS !!!!
I HOPE NONE HERE HAS A RELATIVE THAT SLAMS INTO A POLL FROM DRIVING LIKE AN F'WITT -- TOO fast and losing control . BUT HONESTLY GUYS, CONSTANTLY PUTTING SH I T LIKE THIS ON A FORUM is insane .
WHATS YOUR POINT ????
DO you think we are going to be able to drive faster one day just by the click of a finger .
our speed limits are set by our road conditions and environment design .
if you want to safely drive faster , go to a race tack or move overseas .
and get over it . driving like an F WIT - and going too fast will kill you and others that you take out .
stop refuting this fact .

I really do think you have missed the point that those on here putting forward sensible debate have made. No one engaging in sensible debate has said that driving too fast for the conditions is safe. The general consensus is rather than decreasing limits, more effort should be put into road design, vehicle safety systems and driver education and skill development. These to me are not meaningless points.

By the "stuff all else and we are going to lower limits to reduce the toll" mantra, we will soon be traveling everywhere at speeds less than 70 km/h as that is the only way you will reduce the crash kinetics to a point that is survivable in 99.9999% of crashes. I know I do not want a national speed limit of 70 km/h.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I really do think you have missed the point that those on here putting forward sensible debate have made. No one engaging in sensible debate has said that driving too fast for the conditions is safe. The general consensus is rather than decreasing limits, more effort should be put into road design, vehicle safety systems and driver education and skill development. These to me are not meaningless points.

By the "stuff all else and we are going to lower limits to reduce the toll" mantra, we will soon be traveling everywhere at speeds less than 70 km/h as that is the only way you will reduce the crash kinetics to a point that is survivable in 99.9999% of crashes. I know I do not want a national speed limit of 70 km/h.

Good points, however we still need to be vigilant about bad attitude and behaviour which in my mind is a bigger issue than driver skills or road conditions...
We focus on and are preoccupied with "fatality" incidences but i wonder if crash incidences have been reduced at the same rate as fatalities..? or if people are just surviving more crashes now due to improved safety...
Id say the latter.... because attitudes and behaviours don't appear to be changing......

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Good points, however we still need to be vigilant about bad attitude and behaviour which in my mind is a bigger issue than driver skills or road conditions...
We focus on and are preoccupied with "fatality" incidences but i wonder if crash incidences have been reduced at the same rate as fatalities..? or if people are just surviving more crashes...
Id say the latter....

From personal experience, I attend less crashes in total now than I did 5 years ago. I used to get the reflective vest out every shift in the first few years but now I can go whole shifts with it still in the door pocket of the vehicle all day.

Does that mean there is a reduction in the number of road crashes? In my microcosm yes, but that is an anecdotal observation when considering australia as a whole and gives nothing more than an indication but proves nothing.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

From personal experience, I attend less crashes in total now than I did 5 years ago. I used to get the reflective vest out every shift in the first few years but now I can go whole shifts with it still in the door pocket of the vehicle all day.

Does that mean there is a reduction in the number of road crashes? In my microcosm yes, but that is an anecdotal observation when considering australia as a whole and gives nothing more than an indication but proves nothing.

Thats a good thing.... something must be working or getting through to people then, despite all the skeptisism....

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I can see what you are saying but you have muddled it up a little.

You are actually correct in saying that most crashes don't happen on highways, they happen in city and suburban streets and happen at speeds at less than 60 km/h. This is because the majority of crashes are low speed front to rear and side impacts at intersections. Notice I said crashes, not fatalities. The result of these crashes in the vast majority are no injury ranging up to minor injury requiring hospital assessment but not admission.

.

Yes....i did muddle that up. You have summarised my point exactly. I feel we are getting off topic if we are discussing the speed at which accidents happen (ie.. the speed zone areas) but nonetheless i did not make my point clear. I meant to say the majority of accidents....as you point out. Having lived in rural areas in particular i don't doubt more fatalities occur in the higher speed zones....its pretty logical. My sarcastic bit about physics still stands. Its worth noting that i'm not sure that one is mutualy exclusive of the other niether....i've personally seen an accident involving a rural intersection accross a 100km/h road and it wasn't pretty.....

I feel it is digressing a bit off topic. The issue is the way in which limits are set and then enforced RE safety outcomes. Whether you are doing 100km/h or 60km/h the focus has to be on the suitability of said limits, the degree of driver judgement involved (conditions, traffic etc.) and the general operation of the motor vehicle. I've seen drivers i'd describe as 'unsafe at any speed', but they are have somehow managed to get their license and drive around largely unharassed by the police under the pretext they are 'safe drivers'.

[Elks]

His claims are borne out by German road statistics. In 1972, there were 20,000 deaths on West German roads. In 2009, there were 4100, despite 20 million more people on the road (including the old East Germany).

Interesting that their road toll is now 20% approx of what it was and ours in Victoria is now about 30% of the 1070 ish it peaked at in 1971.

T

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Elks

Interesting that their road toll is now 20% approx of what it was and ours in Victoria is now about 30% of the 1070 ish it peaked at in 1971.

T

From memory, 1970 was our worst year in Australia - about 3,780 fatalities
and that was when we had about 4 million vehicles on the road not the 13-14 million today.

Funny how vehicle design and legislation evolves in different countries...

[uranium_death]

You build an autobahn (or equivalent), and you'll still get some ballsack crawling at 60km/h in the right hand lane, completely oblivious to the fact that they're doing anything wrong...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

You build an autobahn (or equivalent), and you'll still get some ballsack crawling at 60km/h in the right hand lane, completely oblivious to the fact that they're doing anything wrong...

I think you're being too polite to that group of drivers....

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I think you're being too polite to that group of drivers....

Yeah...but it is a public forum. You probably don't want to hear what I yell at them (with my windows wound up) when I am passing them in the far left lane...:P

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

You build an autobahn (or equivalent), and you'll still get some ballsack crawling at 60km/h in the right hand lane, completely oblivious to the fact that they're doing anything wrong...

I do know if they do 60 kph on the RH lanes on a motorway in England, they will very soon get the message. Also remember that overtaking on the left is illegal over there.

Here, we just pass on the left dont we? As a result they are none the wiser.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Here, we just pass on the left dont we? As a result they are none the wiser.

If we go up their back, they slow down in a defiant stance that they're perfectly entitled to travel slow as hell in the right hand lane.

Anybody remember Death Track, or even Death Rally. I'd love one of those cars at times...

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by geckoGT
From personal experience, I attend less crashes in total now than I did 5 years ago. I used to get the reflective vest out every shift in the first few years but now I can go whole shifts with it still in the door pocket of the vehicle all day.

Does that mean there is a reduction in the number of road crashes? In my microcosm yes, but that is an anecdotal observation when considering australia as a whole and gives nothing more than an indication but proves nothing.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Thats a good thing.... something must be working or getting through to people then, despite all the skeptisism....

Guys, I hope you don't mind me quoting you both, but it apears to me that you are both reasonably well regarded members of the forum, and I think it's timely given the thread topic that you both mention, anectdotaly, that there is a general lowering of the road toll/accident rate, and maybe something is getting through.
Since the mid seventies, the road toll in this country has been steadily declining, and I would think that any discussion on speed limits, cameras, RBTs,seat belt legislation etc etc, should bear this in mind when we start arguing about the merits of posted speed limits, placing of cameras, how safe it is to travel 5, 10 ,15 or any other amount of K's over the limit or all the other arguments that get trotted out in regards to speed/ speeding.
I have posted before that ,outside this forum, the general population is not overwhelmingly opposed to the present regulations that govern our roads,.. I don't go in to work on a Monday morning and hear stories about how many got nabbed on the weekend for "hooning" or doing 5 k's over the limit as they were slowing down from an 80 to 60 zone.... The road rules seem to be working in reducing the road toll, (That's our kids, mates, brothers and sisters getting killed on the roads)
The majority of people on this forum are a) Ford enthusiasts and b) car enthusiasts, and having read many threads, and seen many signatures and avatars, I would guess that many, if not the majority of people here are actually in the business of getting the maximum performance (read power/speed/handling) out of their cars. If in doing so they become the unwitting fodder for all the "unjust placements of speed cameras", "ridiculously low speed limits", etc, so be it.
Seat belts save lives,and we have been legislated to wear them, I don't see too many complaints about that, (or arguments from people being pinched for not wearing them), drink driving is legislated against, and again I don't see too many arguments against this. Driving without due care and attention is legislated against, but a lot of us here seem to believe that because we are car enthusiasts, we could not be guilty of that, so that's never a big issue either,...
All of these things are actually "revenue raisers" same as speed cameras, radars ....
The majority of complaints here seem to be about being unjustly "caught" for speeding, or getting nabbed for being a "hoon"
why so many tears???

[Bucknaked]

So many variables. Speed may or may not cause death. Speeding may or may not cause death. I've seen accidents on the news where cars doing 180 involved in an accident and the occupants survive. Then theres people killed doing 60 k's an hour. And then there are the accidents where some occupants die while others don't. It could be anything at all that happens on the road to cause an accident and then determine the outcome.

[flappist]

The problem is zdcol71 that the "one size fits all" approach is not appropriate and the traffic branch have been turned into a revenue raising service.

Look where the fixed speed cameras are positioned.
Look where the new ones are going.

Do you ever see them in front of schools or in really dangerous places? No. Why? Because there is no money to be made there.

How is doing 130 in a 100 zone on the barkly highway east of Cammoweel extremely dangerous when on the western side on the same road it is safe?

Have you ever driven north from Brisbane in the afternoon? It is a bumper to bumper crawl up to the Bribie turnoff and then as 90% of the cars turn off the 4 lane freeway is quite lightly loaded.

SO WHERE IS THE SPEED CAMERA GOING?

In the heavy traffic area where all the accidents happen.....no they all go too slow.
In the 110 zone when you finally break free from the grind and can actually start of your 1 to 3 hour trip home. Of course.......

There is the excuse of the black spot of "Roys Road", truly an amazing feat of moronic stupidity allowing a minor dirt track to intersect with the main freeway at 90 degrees and worse allow crossing the freeway to go in the other direction.
Close the access and make it safe? No way, that would save lives not make money.

How about Maroochydore Rd. 4 lanes of separately fenced freeway with no intersections whatsoever fed from a 110k zone, the limit, 90km/h and it glows in the dark with the amount of radar enforcement.

You go on about "saving the kids" (a catch cry used by every dictator for Hitler down) but how do you save kids when your car is destroyed in a head on crash with someone who has fallen asleep at the wheel or does not notice them crossing the road as they drive around the suburbs as they were fixated on the speedo?

World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

Our own police have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

The only people who support it are those who are gaining money either by grants or revenue (and of course the true believers who never offer any facts just rhetoric).

[zdcol71]

You go on about "saving the kids" (a catch cry used by every dictator for Hitler down) but how do you save kids when your car is destroyed in a head on crash with someone who has fallen asleep at the wheel or does not notice them crossing the road as they drive around the suburbs as they were fixated on the speedo?

World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

Our own police have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

The only people who support it are those who are gaining money either by grants or revenue (and of course the true believers who never offer any facts just rhetoric).

You are right flappist "how do you save kids when your car is destroyed in a head on crash with someone" ...beautiful, how do we legislate against that??
Got to ask the question while I am at it, "how fast are you going that you are so fixated with the speed on the speedo that you are constanty needing to be glancing at it to avoid exceeding the limit" If you need to be that fixated on the speedo!! maybe you shouldn't be on the road !!
Quote.."World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus."
I'm guessing this is the guy from Mercedes who tells us this, driving round on ulimited speed autobhans of Europe?? Good on him ,I'm guessing the political history of Germany has a little to do with their ability to question governmental intervention and the will of the people and popular world opinion to change the status quo.( why is it that you seem to keep trotting out nazis, conspiricies, labor party politics etc etc...)
Quote..."Our own police have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus."
Our own police have not stated this, ...their police union has stated this, and I for one am old enough to remember that the police union in this state has a lot to answer for given their past agendas on various issues.(this, again, is in no way an aspersion to any one in todays police service)
Quote..."The only people who support it are those who are gaining money either by grants or revenue (and of course the true believers who never offer any facts just rhetoric)."
Again, it seems to me the only people who are so vehemently against this, are the people who seem to keep getting stung by it.
You have accused me of beng a true believer before, and also of being a Bligh appologist, I am neither, but I am not a conspiratist who believes everyone is out to get me

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

I for one am old enough to remember that the police union in this state has a lot to answer for given their past agendas on various issues.(this, again, is in no way an aspersion to any one in todays police service)

By all means, please elaborate.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

You are right flappist "how do you save kids when your car is destroyed in a head on crash with someone" ...beautiful, how do we legislate against that??

rabbit rabbit rabbit gibber gibber gibber

Yes comrade everything can be controlled by legislation by the state. You must not think you must OBEY.

I temporarily forgot about your extreme starboard orientation. Mea Culpa.

[RAREV8]

Originally Posted by Agent86

After having completed 10,500 odd klms across north america, i will say that the higher roadspeeds and lack of speed BS enforcement made for smooth traveling.

Didnt see a single accident either. We need a complete new government system in place.

The old system is based on Old Brittian, whihc australia is a polar opposite to.

Everything they do here, is based on ideas from the 'motherland'...

Victoria has a housing shortage..
Hello, australia is FULL of nothing, but the system that has caused this is brittish....

Once you have finished your American trip, I strongly suggest you spend some time driving around the uk before talking about their road systems; what you can do there versus here is quite different.
Road education is a long way ahead, hence motorway speeds are significantly higher with lower road tolls and far less enforcement.
Sure, if you choose to speed in built up areas where you stand to do real damage, you will be pinger and rightfully so but the keep left rule is adhered to far better over there, people give way reasonably well and these are major factors to be considered when driving fast ( safely).
Add to that strict mot testing for all cars yearly helps ensure that cars are safe enough to drive/brake/turn/stop effectively.
I have spent years here and in the uk and Europe and cannot quite understand your post.....sorry if I have misunderstood bit happy for you to clarify.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I do know if they do 60 kph on the RH lanes on a motorway in England, they will very soon get the message.

Too right!

Also remember that overtaking on the left is illegal over there.

YES, UK Highway Code, Rule 267:-

Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right.

Australia has not (yet) adopted this prohibition, but in the years ahead, will!

Here, we just pass on the left dont we? As a result they are none the wiser

Yes, lane start and end treatments, in relation to three-laned lengths of freeway need attention; so the left-lane becomes the unbroken lane. Atm the right-lane is unbroken in AUS. Need time to fix. NSW adopts the UK Highway Code motorway lane discipline, and pass this onto learner drivers via the "The Road Users' Handbook".

Australia will see more developments re ARR on all this.

For more detail, see UK Highway Code, MOTORWAYS Rules 253-273:-
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAn...code/DG_069862

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Yeah...but it is a public forum. You probably don't want to hear what I yell at them (with my windows wound up) when I am passing them in the far left lane...:P

The movement will catch on:-) Patience is required.....

[Angeldust]

It looks also like Mercedes want to acheive a 6/5 star safety rating

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

By all means, please elaborate.

Cast your mind back to the seventies when Bjelke Petersens hasty legislation in regards to street marches and anti Springbok demonstrations was openly commended and supported by the QPU, if not the majority of the force(as it was known at the time)
Again, as I have said, I have the utmost respect for many members of the police service, I'm just not sure that the union necessarily always speaks and acts on behalf of the membership, much like most unions

[Flaming Mo]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Cast your mind back to the seventies when Bjelke Petersens hasty legislation in regards to street marches and anti Springbok demonstrations was openly commended and supported by the QPU, if not the majority of the force(as it was known at the time)
Again, as I have said, I have the utmost respect for many members of the police service, I'm just not sure that the union necessarily always speaks and acts on behalf of the membership, much like most unions

And those old times you mention also proved more so that Governments don’t always act in the best interest of its constituents. In fact the subsequent inquiry also revealed systematic high level political corruption.

My point is, surely if the views of an organisation such as the QPU are questioned and condemned by you because of events 30 to 40 years ago, shouldn’t the government be held to your same standards, rather than just swallowing what they feed us? By your own rationale, shouldn’t the government be top of your list whose agendas and motives should be questioned

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is zdcol71 that the "one size fits all" approach is not appropriate and the traffic branch have been turned into a revenue raising service.

Look where the fixed speed cameras are positioned.
Look where the new ones are going.

Do you ever see them in front of schools or in really dangerous places? No. Why? Because there is no money to be made there.

How is doing 130 in a 100 zone on the barkly highway east of Cammoweel extremely dangerous when on the western side on the same road it is safe?

Have you ever driven north from Brisbane in the afternoon? It is a bumper to bumper crawl up to the Bribie turnoff and then as 90% of the cars turn off the 4 lane freeway is quite lightly loaded.

SO WHERE IS THE SPEED CAMERA GOING?

In the heavy traffic area where all the accidents happen.....no they all go too slow.
In the 110 zone when you finally break free from the grind and can actually start of your 1 to 3 hour trip home. Of course.......

There is the excuse of the black spot of "Roys Road", truly an amazing feat of moronic stupidity allowing a minor dirt track to intersect with the main freeway at 90 degrees and worse allow crossing the freeway to go in the other direction.
Close the access and make it safe? No way, that would save lives not make money.

How about Maroochydore Rd. 4 lanes of separately fenced freeway with no intersections whatsoever fed from a 110k zone, the limit, 90km/h and it glows in the dark with the amount of radar enforcement.

You go on about "saving the kids" (a catch cry used by every dictator for Hitler down) but how do you save kids when your car is destroyed in a head on crash with someone who has fallen asleep at the wheel or does not notice them crossing the road as they drive around the suburbs as they were fixated on the speedo?

World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

Our own police have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

The only people who support it are those who are gaining money either by grants or revenue (and of course the true believers who never offer any facts just rhetoric).

Some very good points made in this post.

As i have said earlier for me its about speed limit selection and enforcement that is being discussed here. For me, i'm not sure that the lower road tolls (and it is starting to plateau in many states so the gains aren't coming as easy as they once were) aren't more to do with better roads and much better cars. Now i know we all say 'aussie roads are crap' but allow me to explain.

In the last 30-40 years major actions have been taken (many very successfully) that have reduced the road toll. Drink driving campaigns, safety equipment in vehicles (crush zones, airbags, mandated seat belts), and yes, improved roads. I recently did a trip to FNqld and to be honest i found the roads (national highway at least) while still substandard to what is should be, quite serviceable. Most importnatly it was much much better than the last time i did the trip (some 3 years ago). This was especially the case around Townsville-tully and in central qld where road works are still being conducted. I'm sure the older members on here can recount some truly shoddy roads back 30 years ago or more.....i've driven on now retired 'former highway' roads in Qld and they are atrocious compared to what we have now.

This applies to the cars that are on the roads. Sure there are alot more cars, but conjestion aside this is a moot point on regonal/rural or even outer urban roads, or even outside of peak hour in cities. The average age of the autralian car fleet has dropped noticeably in the last 30 years plus the standard of new cars is obviously a hell of alot better. With ESP becoming mandatory soon....the question has to be asked....what the hell else do drivers need to stay safe?

Answer....a bloody brain. Modern drivers are either lacking in skill and/or are never concentrating enough to use them. Everyone has lapses in their driving....we are all human. But i've personally been behind supposedly experienced drivers (not young hoons, not old timers) who dont' indicate once, don't properly negotiate intersections, don't change lanes properly or show any courtesy. This happens repeatedly.

We have improved the roads, improved the cars, tightened a range of regulations (with increased costs) RE licensing, training, alcohol/drug use etc.. But if we want to see any measurable further drop in the road toll we need to attack the weakest point in the entire car. The nut behind the wheel.

The current regime of speed enforcement does little to nothing to address this issue.....hence we are just going around and around and around. People keep dieing and the gov. keeps getting richer. Or is it? Didn't Gen Macurthar say kill one soldier and your enemy loses one man, maim one and he loses 3....the one you injured plus two people to care for him??? Surely the gov. has done a cost/benefit analysis on this....how much are they making in 'profit' by sticking to his 'speed kills' mantra? :

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

Our own police have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus.

I have to agree, both these comments are laughable.

One guy from Mercedes with a vested interest (economic as well as professional) in fast high performance cars, states that lowering the speed limits is not he absolute answer (quite rightly so) and to people here that means that "World experts have stated that our speed enforcement is bogus". Since when is one biased person "all the world experts"?

As for the police statement, I do not remember the commissioner of police, the minister, the assistant commissioner or anyone that retains rank in the QPS making this comment. No, in fact it was a member of the QPSU who does not have any right of speech for the QPS as an organisation but can only speak for the union itself. Like many unions, this person may have his comments influenced by political agenda's. Just like our union, which tells the public and the government that paramedics are well payed, yet not one paramedic I know agrees.


I do not agree that speed cameras are the only answer, nor do I believe that lowering the speed limits is the only answer, never have. But the simple fact is that over the last 20 years the road toll has decreased, the number of severe injuries as a result of motor vehicle crash has decreased, and this is despite a disproportionate increase in the number of road users.

Something is working, deciding what is way outside the pay scale of any member here and would be too difficult due to the extraordinary number of variables. Yes I admit that it is impossible to prove that this reduction in death and injury is not due to decreased DUI, driver training, improved roads and increased vehicle safety. It is also impossible to prove that altered speed limits and enforcement has not contributed.

By the way Flappist, with regards to your claim that they don't put speed cameras and traps in high risk areas like schools, better watch the news a bit more. They have had a large sting in the last couple of weeks, including a council bus driver caught. Additionally I often see speed traps, both handhelds and cameras in school zones.

Of course they are not going to put the camera where it is bumper to bumper and no one is exceeding 20 km/h, what would be the point? They are going to put it where it opens out and numb skulls are going to put the pedal to the metal because now they are agro and late, that is where it belongs. Are you telling me that the locals do not learn to not speed off as there is probably a speed camera ahead, seems like that works to me.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Flaming Mo

And those old times you mention also proved more so that Governments don’t always act in the best interest of its constituents. In fact the subsequent inquiry also revealed systematic high level political corruption.

My point is, surely if the views of an organisation such as the QPU are questioned and condemned by you because of events 30 to 40 years ago, shouldn’t the government be held to your same standards, rather than just swallowing what they feed us? By your own rationale, shouldn’t the government be top of your list whose agendas and motives should be questioned

Not sure that I actually condemned the views of the QPU, I certainly questioned them, as I do so with any other organisation who holds any sort of power over me. Far from being an apologist or toe rag of the Bligh government, (or any other for that matter), I take an active interest in who is determining what I do or don't do. My politics are irrelevant to any body on a motoring forum, and as such I try to keep my opinions on the topic, but I can assure you that I don't now, and have never ,swallowed what anyone has fed me.And yes, by my own rationale, the government is top of the list of whose agendas and motives I question.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Cast your mind back to the seventies when Bjelke Petersens hasty legislation in regards to street marches and anti Springbok demonstrations was openly commended and supported by the QPU, if not the majority of the force(as it was known at the time)
Again, as I have said, I have the utmost respect for many members of the police service, I'm just not sure that the union necessarily always speaks and acts on behalf of the membership, much like most unions

The point was they could march! but the media spun nonsense.
It was because of the way the dam fools wanted to march.
The demonstrators were controlled by a bunch of rat bags. that were causing trouble and if someone who owned a business or people who worked for a living were restricted in carrying out there job. the gov had to try to support them to. as that rabble cost people money.
And i can assure you most of the cops have more good to say about Joh then any other poly in QLD.

[geckoGT]

Gee, thats on topic

[GT290]

Originally Posted by cs123

Dunno, maybe has something to do with running traffic lights. I see the occasional serious accident at lights. Rarely do I see something as serious at a roundabout.

They are simple to use. Give way too your right, how hard is that! Safer than running an amber or red light aye!