Vfacts January 2011 - Page 6

jpd80 · 08-02-2011, 07:25 AM

My point is:
Small cars start around the $20K mark where as mid sized cars begin at
near $28K, that big price jump is a huge hurdle to people on low wages
facing finance. Now imagine another $8,000 on top of that and you begin
to see Falcon's problem.

Add to that, the the perception of size difference between large cars and
mid size cars is much less these days but pricing does not reflect that change.

Instead of packaging Falcon as Falcon/Fairlane with I-6/V8 engines, I think
that Ford would attract more buyers by spanning the Mid sized-large car
sectors with a Turbo I-4/V6/Turbo V6 and diesels. The game plan for the
next Falcon must change to make it lighter and more appealing to buyers,
customer's tastes are changing and Ford needs to follow those trends.

Falcon can never be a small car but there's a great opportunity for the next
product cycle to span two lucrative segments and increase sales by changing
buyer perception of the once big thirsty Falcon to an efficient car designed
for the 21st century.

naddis01 · 08-02-2011, 11:56 AM

Would I be correct it thinking that if they went to a v6 they would be able to lop of about 100mm off the front of a Falcon? If so would that just make it a wideish body mid size car? I know our Mazda 6 has enough room for me to sit in the drivers seat (I am about 190cm tall), then jump in behind and have plenty of soon back there. Why would I need a bigger car?

I would be all over a shorter body turbo v6. Especially in wagon form.

Joe5619 · 08-02-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

My point is:
Small cars start around the $20K mark where as mid sized cars begin at
near $28K, that big price jump is a huge hurdle to people on low wages
facing finance. Now imagine another $8,000 on top of that and you begin
to see Falcon's problem.

Add to that, the the perception of size difference between large cars and
mid size cars is much less these days but pricing does not reflect that change.

Instead of packaging Falcon as Falcon/Fairlane with I-6/V8 engines, I think
that Ford would attract more buyers by spanning the Mid sized-large car
sectors with a Turbo I-4/V6/Turbo V6 and diesels. The game plan for the
next Falcon must change to make it lighter and more appealing to buyers,
customer's tastes are changing and Ford needs to follow those trends.

Falcon can never be a small car but there's a great opportunity for the next
product cycle to span two lucrative segments and increase sales by changing
buyer perception of the once big thirsty Falcon to an efficient car designed
for the 21st century.

The only problem with all that is "one Ford".. Ford is not going to built a medium sedean for Australia when they already have the mondeo/fusion..

Road_Warrior · 08-02-2011, 12:00 PM

Well they'd be able to reduce the overhang a bit because the FG's front has a recessed firewall and jutting radiator support panel to accommodate the I6.

Especially the Ecoboost 4cyl they could do this. Would work quite well with a styling change so it doesn't look like a Falcon but still share most of the bits and pieces - call it a Fusion and they'll walk out the door.

**Polyal** · 08-02-2011, 12:04 PM

Ah here we go, the "overhang" drama again, exactly what is so bad about the current shape? It looks very sharp and fresh in the sport and luxury segments.

naddis01 · 08-02-2011, 12:10 PM

Who in this thread has said it was bad? All that has been suggested was that by going to a shorter motor they could shorten the car and thereby basically making it a mid sized car.

I think RW was suggesting a styling change to remove the Falcon 'stigma'.

vztrt · 08-02-2011, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

The only problem with all that is "one Ford".. Ford is not going to built a medium sedean for Australia when they already have the mondeo/fusion..

Thats what comes to my mind. Why would you do that when the car is there.

I'd be thinking trying to make the cabin bigger if the I6 was retired.

Road_Warrior · 08-02-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ah here we go, the "overhang" drama again, exactly what is so bad about the current shape? It looks very sharp and fresh in the sport and luxury segments.

Where is the drama and where has anyone said it was bad? I was merely pointing out an opportunity to make the car different as Naddis said. The Ecoboost Falcon isn't going to be a performance variant and with a combination of less weight from the all alloy Ecoboost motor and a little bit less metal in the front, it should cut back its kerb weight quite a bit and complement the fuel efficiency of the I4T.

Ford have got a golden opportunity to kick the Camry in the balls with this car if they do it right.

4Vman · 08-02-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ah here we go, the "overhang" drama again, exactly what is so bad about the current shape? It looks very sharp and fresh in the sport and luxury segments.

Its an opportunity to reduce the size of the car without impacting the passenger space.
The Falcon is in some ways designed around accommodating the I6... This has brought some "compromises" with it.

naddis01 · 08-02-2011, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Would I be correct it thinking that if they went to a v6 they would be able to lop of about 100mm off the front of a Falcon? If so would that just make it a wideish body mid size car? I know our Mazda 6 has enough room for me to sit in the drivers seat (I am about 190cm tall), then jump in behind and have plenty of soon back there. Why would I need a bigger car?

Just to add to my previous post. Do people realise that a diesel Mazda 6 weighs about 1650kg. Not much less than an XT Falcon. Mid size cars are actually large cars there days.

69XWGT · 08-02-2011, 01:19 PM

It's all about perception and unfortunately in here we are preaching to the converted.

Out in the real world people have a perception that Toyota build quality reliable cars and that Holden are quality and at the forefront of bringing in new models and technology even if it's just marketing bull.
SIDI for instance or even AFM.

Ford unfortunately and even the small cars are labeled as being old clunkers and thristy on fuel even though in real world driving a Falcon is more economical than any SIDI crap.
This perception hasn't been helped by the use of falcons as taxis forever and a day.
During the XB , Ford were even advertising the fact that 95% of the Taxi fleet were Falcons. These days you get in a Falcon cab and it's all but rooted from the million KM's it's done and everybody thinks that Falcons are crap.
The reason why they were so popular was because of the length of service you get from a Falcon.
The company has also shot itself in the foot. Their marketing is crap. They are behind with new technologies and aren't progessive enough
Their dealers want a kick up the **** and so does their service departments.
I had an XR6 that had problems and all they could tell me was it was within specifications. Getting them to fix something was like getting teeth pulled

The whole perception of Ford Australia needs to change.
It needs to be seen as a manufacturer with an eye to the future delivering modern fuel efficient vehicles and not 2 years after every one else has delivered the same stuff

We need a Mullaly as CEO of FoA

**Polyal** · 08-02-2011, 01:27 PM

The chances of Ford running different sedans down the line are very slim.

Also once you downsize the falcon what happens to the mondeo? You cant have both with simialr dimensions. I have no issues with the mondeo getting the chop but its all not exactly fitting the one ford mantra.

Lets say the Mondeo gets the boot, if the Falcon was to get the same drivetrains, which it basically does except for the diesel then I can see merit in the change. (If the falcon doesn't get the diesel by years end it will be disappointing, a diesel ute would be popular as a workhorse).

BTW ive had a peak at a I4T engine bay, after a life time of seeing the I6 in there its a weird view.

69XWGT, ill have to disagree with you on the assessment of Ford small cars, they have a very good name but the issue like you stated is that if nobay knows how good they are why would they buy it. That and the price of them, which has sharpened up comparatively to what it used to be. Problem with that segment is that most buyers are purely price driven.

It would have been nice if Ford concentrated on its marketing of quality and tech over GM's small car lineup, have a go at their cheapness etc. If Ford wanted to take the moral high ground and offer a better small car for Australia then they need to make that clear. Something like when your buying a Ford you know its a Ford...not a bloody Daewoo.

phillyc · 08-02-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Just to add to my previous post. Do people realise that a diesel Mazda 6 weighs about 1650kg. Not much less than an XT Falcon. Mid size cars are actually large cars there days.

A Mazda 3 SP25 weighs 1374kg. It is 4580mm long and 1755mm wide.

A GMHolden Cruze diesel weighs 1550kg. It is 4597mm long and 1788mm wide.

A 50th Anniversary FG Falcon XR6 Auto weighs 1735kg. It is 4970mm long and 1868mm wide.

I love the I6, it's a brilliant engine. It is however really long. You could shave about 200mm going to I4T and V8 engines, more with a V6.

I have said it before but the idea of a Falcon 'compact' just like the original could be very appealing. A reduction in weight and length, but the same or better interior space. Have a sedan and wagon/hatch body style.

69XWGT · 08-02-2011, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

The chances of Ford running different sedans down the line are very slim.

Also once you downsize the falcon what happens to the mondeo? You cant have both with simialr dimensions. I have no issues with the mondeo getting the chop but its all not exactly fitting the one ford mantra.

Lets say the Mondeo gets the boot, if the Falcon was to get the same drivetrains, which it basically does except for the diesel then I can see merit in the change. (If the falcon doesn't get the diesel by years end it will be disappointing, a diesel ute would be popular as a workhorse).

BTW ive had a peak at a I4T engine bay, after a life time of seeing the I6 in there its a weird view.

69XWGT, ill have to disagree with you on the assessment of Ford small cars, they have a very good name but the issue like you stated is that if nobay knows how good they are why would they buy it. That and the price of them, which has sharpened up comparatively to what it used to be. Problem with that segment is that most buyers are purely price driven.

It would have been nice if Ford concentrated on its marketing of quality and tech over GM's small car lineup, have a go at their cheapness etc. If Ford wanted to take the moral high ground and offer a better small car for Australia then they need to make that clear. Something like when your buying a Ford you know its a Ford...not a bloody Daewoo.

Yep your right but , Fords marketing is nothing short of hopeless.
Holden had the hide to compare a diesel Craptiva with the Territory at one stage. Ford should be pushing the European v Korea angle hard and they should be telling the world that slogans don't make good cars and while there at it fix their own build quality

Not to mention Wheels and Motor.
A Ford can get an international car of the year trophy and it won't rate a mention for the awards in Australia.

Road_Warrior · 08-02-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

The chances of Ford running different sedans down the line are very slim.

Also once you downsize the falcon what happens to the mondeo? You cant have both with simialr dimensions. I have no issues with the mondeo getting the chop but its all not exactly fitting the one ford mantra.

Lets say the Mondeo gets the boot, if the Falcon was to get the same drivetrains, which it basically does except for the diesel then I can see merit in the change. (If the falcon doesn't get the diesel by years end it will be disappointing, a diesel ute would be popular as a workhorse).

BTW ive had a peak at a I4T engine bay, after a life time of seeing the I6 in there its a weird view.

They run three different body types down the line now and they seem to be doing ok. The rest of it is just introducing the right parts from the supply chain at the right time in the assembly process.

And under the one Ford plan there is scope for regional vehicles to continue, like the Bantam in South Africa, Ecosport(?) in South America and Transit Connect in Europe. The Ecoboost Falcon still fits in because it will be using corporate powertrains and systems.

But yes the Mondeo question is one which will need resolving because the two vehicles will clash. Mondeo's poor showing in sales could be justification to drop it but I can't see it happening. Unless the 'Fusion' was pitched as a fleet queen and the Mondy was left as a high-end alternative to the Jap mid sizers.

Tell us more about the peek of the I4T? How did it look?

**Polyal** · 08-02-2011, 02:28 PM

Sorry I mean multiple body types for one style, by three I am assuming you mean ute, sedan and tezza? I was more referring to have two or more version of the sedan alone, that I cant see happening, it would be a one size fits all.

The I4T peek was a few months back now but there is a bucketload of space once its in there..its just odd but nothing time wouldn't fix. It was an early mule so it was basically a drop job, but it looked "factory" enough for its stage.

Its also strange that there hasn't been much talk about a diesel possibly going into the Falcon..I mean if they work it for the Territory then why not. Only thing I can think of is they want all the diesel sales to reflect in the territorys name.

I know our next family car will be a diesel, Territory is on the list as a high chance but we dont really need a SUV yet, more along the lines of the mondeo is what would suit us..but if there was a falcon diesel then there would be no question.

Road_Warrior · 08-02-2011, 02:42 PM

Ah ok I gotcha. Also, I have a theory about the Falcon and that V6 diesel. I suspect it physically cannot go in there much for the same reasons as the Duratec 35 wasn't a drop in and bolt up job...

Bossxr8 · 08-02-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Not right there mate... Feb Downdays still scheduled.

Expect more downdays in March too ...

The next 2 have been cancelled and the one after that probably will too, and none scheduled for March, so I don't know where you're getting that from, especially with Territory coming on line next month why would they have down days in March?

jpd80 · 08-02-2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Just to add to my previous post. Do people realise that a diesel Mazda 6 weighs about 1650kg. Not much less than an XT Falcon. Mid size cars are actually large cars there days.

And that's what I'm saying, there isn't much difference in sizes or in some instances, weight but there
sure is a huge difference in price between the entry level models of both groups, nearly $8,000 worth.

A little balance to the weight equation, just consider the US Ford Fusion. At the moment,
the car is based on the Mazda 6 you used as an example above, let's see how the US Ford compares:

- V6 AWD SEL (G6E) = 3808 lbs (1725 Kg)
- V6 FWD SEL (G6E) = 3608 lbs (1640 Kg)
- I-4 FWD S = 3285 lbs (1485 Kg)

Sure Fusion is smaller than Falcon but this is the point, if Falcon was repositioned
so that the big car we like remains but in lighter form and is capable of generating
lighter I-4 versions below it then all the better.
I think Ecoboost I-4 in Falcon points the way that Ford Australia want to explore,
I-4 and V6 engines are almost 200 mm shorter than the I-6, a rejiggering of the front and cab
could see the Falcon's length and weight reduced considerably, increasing fuel economy.

jpd80 · 08-02-2011, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The next 2 have been cancelled and the one after that probably will too, and none scheduled for March, so I don't know where you're getting that from, especially with Territory coming on line next month why would they have down days in March?

Then why is Ford saying that the new Territory will launch in May?

vztrt · 08-02-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Then why is Ford saying that the new Territory will launch in May?

So they should launch a car and have no stock??

prydey · 08-02-2011, 06:37 PM

i'll go out on a limb here and guess Bossxr8 gets his info 1st hand, and yet, it is still questioned.

at the end of the day, (and its probably obvious) i'm a loyol blue blood, and whilst i'm not in a position financially to buy new cars, i have complete faith in the decision makers at ford. some decisions may seem odd to many on here, but i garauntee they have a lot more info and figures at their disposal than all on here combined.

i doubt there'd be much room for sentimantality at ford. some would have a sof spot for falcon, but its a business first and foremost.

Bossxr8 · 08-02-2011, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Then why is Ford saying that the new Territory will launch in May?

Ever heard of a ramp up. You don't start banging out 100% of production all at once.

Plus dealers need demo vehicles, i'm pretty sure dealers get demos before customer cars are delivered. And deliveries usually start before the official release date anyway.

vztrt · 08-02-2011, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ever heard of a ramp up. You don't start banging out 100% of production all at once.

Plus dealers need demo vehicles, i'm pretty sure dealers get demos before customer cars are delivered. And deliveries usually start before the official release date anyway.

They still doing the testing of the first 1000 units before they go out?

Chilliman · 08-02-2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

And that's what I'm saying, there isn't much difference in sizes or in some instances, weight but there
sure is a huge difference in price between the entry level models of both groups, nearly $8,000 worth.

A little balance to the weight equation, just consider the US Ford Fusion. At the moment,
the car is based on the Mazda 6 you used as an example above, let's see how the US Ford compares:

- V6 AWD SEL (G6E) = 3808 lbs (1725 Kg)
- V6 FWD SEL (G6E) = 3608 lbs (1640 Kg)
- I-4 FWD S = 3285 lbs (1485 Kg)

Sure Fusion is smaller than Falcon but this is the point, if Falcon was repositioned
so that the big car we like remains but in lighter form and is capable of generating
lighter I-4 versions below it then all the better.
I think Ecoboost I-4 in Falcon points the way that Ford Australia want to explore,
I-4 and V6 engines are almost 200 mm shorter than the I-6, a rejiggering of the front and cab
could see the Falcon's length and weight reduced considerably, increasing fuel economy.

What if the Fusion just ends up replacing the Falcon altogether - it might even use the Fusion name? I feel it could be a distinct possiblity once Mondeo & fusion merge on the CD4 platform in 2013.

Bossxr8 · 08-02-2011, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

They still doing the testing of the first 1000 units before they go out?

Haven't heard.

jpd80 · 08-02-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilliman

What if the Fusion just ends up replacing the Falcon altogether - it might even use the Fusion name? I feel it could be a distinct possiblity once Mondeo & fusion merge on the CD4 platform in 2013.

Then why wouldn't Ford just make the change at 2013 instead of waiting until 2016...

jpd80 · 08-02-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ever heard of a ramp up. You don't start banging out 100% of production all at once.

Ramp up?
I thought Territory was made to order these days...

Road_Warrior · 08-02-2011, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ramp up?
I thought Territory was made to order these days...

I'd say most of these are to order, dealer orders, they would have seen the car at the dealer release and been instructed to get their orders in by a certain date. And any dealer worth his (or in my case locally, her) salt would want to have a demo on hand for a model update as significant as this as soon as the public release is conducted.

The rest of them would be internal fleet as mentioned previously and press/eval cars.

Smoke Pursuit · 08-02-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I'd say most of these are to order, dealer orders, they would have seen the car at the dealer release and been instructed to get their orders in by a certain date. And any dealer worth his (or in my case locally, her) salt would want to have a demo on hand for a model update as significant as this as soon as the public release is conducted.

The rest of them would be internal fleet as mentioned previously and press/eval cars.

Ford were building cars again and sitting them on the grass as I just bought a Euro 4 XR6 SSB out of Ford stock in Melbourne so they must have been building some stock for themselves during Nov - Dec (this cars a Nov plate).

Ofcourse they will be building Territory prior to the release, they need to get cars built to ship.