FPV ups GS price, slashes F6

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Rodge

There's an abundent supply of F6's over here they can't sell, even Euro 3's still hanging around !! Perhaps you guys would like some back

Of course we will see discounting of all FG1 vehicles in due course , like that's not a given.

There's a really big difference between your old, heavy and materially slower V8 and the new SC cars, some people for reasons best known to them seem to be in denial about that.

Look its obvious I think my new GT-P is a much better car than my previous FG F6 and you don't agree, I paid $31,000 to change...ya think I would have done that if I was thoroughly convinced it was worth it.

Rose coloured glasses my friend...

You bagged the 5.0 litre to start with?? Then changed your tune and bought one, was that just to prove something here?

And yes im quite happy with my 5.4 litre V8, 20 kay cheaper then retail on a new GT, I think the 20 kay I saved makes up for the material difference in power...

Just shows some people have more money the sense aye?

Originally Posted by Rodge

I don't think they're selling all that well in N.Z. either, especially for a new engine that only really got here in late November.

There's quite a few on trade me, not much discounting going on that I can visibly see, but I was offerred $6,000 off a GS the other day as they have been especially slow for a new model. Could have had immediate delivery on an Edge coloured GT-P last week, had previously heard there was a three month wait at one stage, guess that's turned out to be the B.S. one dealer spun me...

Ford N.Z did themselves no favours raising the price on GT's by $7,000 compared to the previous 5.4 litre engined car and F6's are $7,000 less expensive over here on a retail basis and then there's the good deals to be negotiated on them.

So why could it be that it would appear they are not selling as well as perhaps expected ? - take your pick - Multi Choice
a) Too expensive
b) Insufficient Kit compared to HSV's
c) Torque reductions to protect the driveline, more R & D needed here.
d) Not achieving claimed performacne of 4.9 seconds to 100 k.p.h.
e) F6 performance, (feels stronger over most of the rev range)
f) FG2 later this year
g) All of the above.

Last week I got clearance from my wife, (which is no small task when your existing trade is only one year old), a fair trade in quote for my F6, again no small matter when not every dealer is very co-operative, and I have plenty of funds to do the trade to a GT but have decided against it for reason (g) all of the above.

Changed your tune didnt ya buddy...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Rodge

There's an abundent supply of F6's over here they can't sell, even Euro 3's still hanging around !! Perhaps you guys would like some back I'd suggest the reason they havn't wanted to build 2011 F6's is because there's so many unsold 2010 ones !!, why else would they now be moving to clear these unsold vehicles that have been hanging around for so long ?

Of course we will see discounting of all FG1 vehicles in due course , like that's not a given.

There's a really big difference between your old, heavy and materially slower V8 and the new SC cars, some people for reasons best known to them seem to be in denial about that.

Look its obvious I think my new GT-P is a much better car than my previous FG F6 and you don't agree, I paid $31,000 to change...ya think I would have done that if I wasn't thoroughly convinced it was worth it ?

Yeh $31,000 New Zealand............not actual money......

[Rodge]

I was fortunate to subsequently get some serious track time at Hampton Downs with the SC range, especially the GT-P.

As I discovered after some serious further investigation after that post many months ago, you really need to get them out on the track to discover the differences.

The price rises here are primarily exchange rate driven.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Look its obvious I think my new GT-P is a much better car than my previous FG F6 and you don't agree, I paid $31,000 to change...ya think I would have done that if I was thoroughly convinced it was worth it.

You didn't seem so thoroughly convinced at the time, in your words it only offered "just enough points of difference", 3/5 of those points being interior options, another being the fact that you didn't like the colour of your F6, plus the fact that the deal on the GT was too good to refuse.

Originally Posted by Rodge

I'm buying a GT-P because it offers JUST enough points of difference to my F6, (new engine, six pot brembo's back up camera, proper sports seats and leather), none of which I've had before AND because I feel I have negotiated a very good deal which I'm happy to state. It amounts to the eqilivent of $A23,000 to change from a Dec 2009 F6 which I purchased as a demo so its had two owners, done 15,000 km's and i've never been thrilled with the cars seats or the viper colour which were other factors motivating the prospect of a deal to a brand new 2011 GT-P. That's the deal I demanded, take it or leave it and the dealer finally accepted it this afternoon. Its simply a deal too good to refuse in my opinion, so I've signed up.

[Rodge]

^^^ As I've said above, get them out on the track and you'll discover where the differences lie. Narurally I wanted more points of difference but i've had my GT-P for over two months now and I'm a very happy camper.

The parabolic nature of the F6's power makes it feel really strong, this is a perception thing, actually the SC winds out further and harder.
I was comparing a well run-in F6 running BP98 Octane with performance from green engined SC cars running who knows what fuel at the time.

Thoughts from the track are :-
F6 does not cope well with sustained high performance demands, the one they had there for comparitive purposes overheated quickly, its parabolic power delivery and on or off boost power delivery is difficult to control on the limit and extremly hard to modulate in any meaningful way and the issue of coping with off-on boost transition and turbo lag is always there and not always easy to handle at or close too the limit.

By contrast the SC V8 is very easy to drive, its easy to modulate the exact amount of power in sweeping corners for example, has more top end horsepower and feels better balanced. Six pot brembo's are very nice and the super supportive seats of the GT-P are brilliant.

[FreddyDUZ747]

I expected it to happen,its only been 8 or 9 years since they had a real V8 between the towers(5.6ltr AU days).Thats along time between good drinks,too long imo.

[FreddyDUZ747]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Poyal - I don't think anyone would argue the F6 doesn't deserve respect, its a great car but what I don't get is that for more than 3 years they've done nothing to the engine apart from tweak it to meet Euro 4 and in the process burn more fuel, WTF ?

If the engine was tweaked then it would embarrase the S/C,basically what the V8 guys put up with from 2003 till 2009(5.4ltr),would this be a good move for a multi billion dollar business that hasnt had a decent hunk of iron for ages V8 wise whilst its rival is happily laughing in it face.

The V8 did not deserve to be shadowed again.

[mcnews]

If you are worried about extended track performance, and buy a Falcon, and an automatic Falcon at that...Well...... Enough said.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by mcnews

If you are worried about extended track performance, and buy a Falcon, and an automatic Falcon at that...Well...... Enough said.

Maybe on a fast track....and in a manual....

[russellw]

Personally, I have always thought it an outstanding achievement by a niche player like FPV that they have managed to produce some outstanding vehicles despite the limitations they have been faced with.

Not all of the cars they have produced have captured the hearts (and wallets) of the punter but it hasn't been for a lack of trying.

Let's also not let our historical facts go astray.

1. The F6 outsold any other individual model in the FPV range in 2006 (beating the GT by 33) and 2010 (beating the GT by 63) and ran second every other year it was in full production.

2. Only counting the years they were both available, the GT has outsold the F6 by 857 units - or about 1.3:1.

3. It is even closer with the respective Utes, the Super Pursuit (the best selling V8 Ute) outselling the F6 Ute by 137 units or 1.14:1.

I will do the 6 month data for FPV at then end of June but it is clear that the new S/C range has shifted the balance somewhat further in favour of the V8 product but we should still consider ourselves fortunate to have that level of choice.

I am equally happy in either vehicle. My own personal preference is the 8 but that is nothing more than a personal leaning and that should be no more open to criticism than my choice of after-shave or whether I add the milk to my tea before or after (the tea that is).

Yes they are tarted up taxis as mcnews happily pointed out but that has always been the case with any of our locally produced hero models and it seems to have worked fine for the last 44 years. The build quality isn't always great and the resale value is rubbish but their TCO is still considerably less than any Euro that is going to match their performance and on that basis they represent value for money.

I'm sure I'll get some argument but here is a case in point:

Mercedes Benz E-500 Avantgarde
5.4 V8, 285 kW, 530 Nm, 1830 kg, 0-100 in 5.2 sec (claimed)
RRP $ 181,000 - 3 year trade value (based on Redbook) = $ 76,020
Thus, the depreciation cost over 3 years is $ 104,980.

FPV F6 or GT at around $67,000.

F6 trade-in resale is actually better than the E500 in percentage terms with a 3 year value of around $40k with the GT faring somewhat worse at $33k.
Either way, the depreciation cost is only $27,000 for the F6 and $34,000 for the GT. They'll use somewhat more fuel over their respective life than the Merc but servicing costs will favour the FPV pair.

You might argue that the Merc is safer, faster, better built but the reality is that neither of those three is probably true any more and where they are the margin is not great enough to justify the extra coin.

So you could have one of each FPV product assuming you were in the market for an E500 - paid less in the initial purchase price (by $20k or so) and finished up with only $3k less retained value after 3 years so it would be hard to argue the value for money equation.

Cheers
Russ

[Rodge]

Good post Russ. I'm very fortunate to be in a position to indulge my love of fine cars and as I own one of each brand and am familiar with the E500 and S500 I'm happy to chime in based on my personal experience.

No question FPV product offers extremly good levels of performance for the money and on topic I believe if people haggle a bit off the new asking price of the F6 and get one for a few thousand less than the driveaway $59.9K ask they're getting a great buy for what is without question a very good car.

Won't bother debating retained value either as in my experience FPV's at least as good as anything else, often better, (I paid $60K for my BF2 Typhoon and three years later traded it in for $40K retaining 2/3rd's of its value), albeit I'd only done about 30,000 km's from memory and also my FG F6 held its value reasonably well although I owned it for only a short time.

Where I feel FPV have gone a little astray is in the lack of product differentiation between say XR6T and F6 for example and this can unfortunatly be traced to some cost cutting. For example the BF2 Typhoon had special sports seats with very firm cushion and seat back bolsters upholstered in a very good realistic feeling suede fabric and a special steering wheel, now we get the standard Ford steering wheel and XR6 seats with cheap fake suede. HSV's get more special equipment to differentiate their vehicles over standard Holdung's and they're outselling FPV by quite a margin, so perhaps FPV need to take some notes....

For the record I really liked my BF2 Typhoon, little things that you actually feel and touch every time you drive it really matter like aforementioned seats and steering wheel, unfortunatly my FG F6 was a forgettable experience, quality control problems with a very bad paint mis-match on the plastic parts and spoilers with the rest of the car, bad surging for the first two minutes after a cold start and a very poor seat, really took the gloss off what should have been a far better experience, but i'm pleased the new GT-P is problem free and its quality control appears to be extremly good for an Australian built car.

Now lets have a look at your assertion that the Merceedes-benz is no safer which simply isn't correct. In a nutshell its armed to the teeth with safety equipment which includes a pre-safe collision system, (primes the brakes, closes the windows and tightens the seat belts if the car's system detects a collision is imminent), lane deaprture warning system, blind spot warning system, distronic radar based cruise control which you can set and forget and will go into full emergency crash stop if you forget to brake, brake assist which boosts brake assistance well beyond normal boost levels if the car detects that a crash is imminent as their research has shown that in the majority of accidents the driver doesn't brake hard enough, then these's probably a more modern version of ABS brakes than in FPV's and so on. Then there's my personal favourite, actually i'm bloody glad this came in after I got my Merc as i'm sure mine would be going off all the time as the cars so bloody comfortable to drive its remarkable so its easy to end up feeling sleepy, I think they call it the attention deficit system or some name like that. Apparently the car monitors your behaviour based on 70 different behavioural parametres and if its thinks you're getting drowsy there's a range of meaures I think including the coffee cup visual and some alarm from memory, anyway there's loads of info on the net if you want to know more. And if it all goes wrong and you do crash, well you want to have a look at the frontal impact beams on my S Class, they're absolutly massive. Then there's the build quality, I'm sure I don't need to unpack that.
M Benz developed many of the safety systems we take for granted today such as ABS brakes, crumple zones, crash intrusion beams and many other systems so to try and argue that their current cars with superior technology arn't any safer than a FPV, well I think I've shown from the list of techincal equipment above, (all of which is standard fit on an S Class or E Class500) that simply isn't the case and the above is by no means a comprehensive list, its just what readily comes to mind.

The S and E500 also come standard with computer controlled adjustable air suspension which offers a superb ride quality 7G Tronic gearbox's and a host of other technology that's always "at least" one generation, usually two, ahead of anything FPV give us.

Then there's the superb ergonomics of the cars, that in itself is a real joy.

The latest V8 that's gone into the S500 and about to go into the E500 is their all new ultra efficient twin turbo direct injected 4.6 litre V8 making 320KW and 700nm's of torque. I believe its under 11 litres per 100 km's for the S Class and will probably be under 10 litres per 100 km's combined cycle in the much lighter E Class vehicle.

Did you know that large parts of the E and S Class are made in aluminium, doors, bonnet, roof and boot and they put all the weight savings back into stronger crash intrusion beams and other safety equipment ?

Are Mercedes-benz's value for money ?, absolutly not, they're heavily over-priced in this part of the world and that's not just a product of import tariff's, LCT and GST, believe me Mercedes-benz Au which are owned by the parent company in Germany are shafting us big time on pricing in Australia and New Zealand. Are they good value in England ? They're fair value for money there and if I buy another one I'll import if from there myself. Do they hold their re-sale well ?, NO, 3 year retained values are lower than FPV's in terms of percentage of value held.

Can you compare a FPV with a Mercedes-benz ?. No I think I've shown they're very different cars. Which car do I like the most ? I don't have a favourite, I think they're both great.

Well that's a very brief summary of the differences, I am sure my post will be just as controversial as your Russ

P.S. Yes servicing costs are more for the Merc but not by as wide margin as many would lead others to believe. So far in my experience its about 50% more but its early days in the Merc's life, coming up four years old so who knows how expensive it is to maintain later on, I guess that's something to "look forward" to finding out.

[mrbaxr6t]

this whole post highlights one thing and that is

boost makes it better!

keep making boosted cars I don't care how many cylinders they have just keep doing it