Open Speed Limit Highway in NT???

[Iggle Piggle]

Think I heard on way to work this morning they have extended the open limit stretch so it is now 340km in length.

So what does that make it now - just over an hour's drive (and 1.5 tanks)?

[csv8]

"NEWS that the Giles Government will move to extend permanently open speed limits north of Alice Springs will certainly divide many in the community.

Open speed limits on Territory highways has been a contentious issue, made all the more confusing by the Government’s refusal to release the facts needed to make informed decisions on what’s best for the people of the Territory – yet another example of the CLP’s failed communications strategy.

But the NT News has now made those results public.

No fatalities over the 12-month trial is certainly a positive.

But lunatic drivers drinking, wearing no seatbelts, reaching speeds of 295km/h and driving uninsured cars are certainly cause for concern.

This is a single lane, curvy highway we’re talking about, not exactly the Autobahn.

It will be incumbent upon all Territorians to remember the old adage that with great speed, comes great responsibility – or words to that effect.

The trauma surgeons are still concerned and rightfully so. Their argument that the safest – and most cost efficient solution if we can’t afford to build an autobahn – is to regulate speed, has merit.

Their argument that the issue has become more about politics and less about public safety is also a good point.

Territorians will have to heed the advice to drive to conditions and remember that this is a great freedom.

But not to drive recklessly.

We appreciate the freedoms this special part of the world has bestowed on us – even open speed limits – but must not let the idiots among us ruin it for everyone else.

Happy motoring." http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/opinio...-1227509960200

[XG_Falcon]

I lived in Germany for 12 years, I came to Australia 11 years ago.

When I arrived in this country where we have long open roads - ideal for high speed travel, I was a bit shocked to hear 110km/h was the maximum speed limit anywhere in my state (SA). However once I had been on the road a while and experienced how little compassion the average drivers here have for one another, I quickly understood why the laws were so draconian. Also the poor skill level of some drivers here is quite disconcerting - in fact many people seem unaware of basic road rules. My first week driving here felt like I was watching Wacky Races.

I think driver education has really failed the general Australian public in the past, it is catching up now but most of the damage has already been done (too many hazards already have their licenses). I'm certainly not saying Australians are bad drivers or anything like that, I just think the governing bodies have been too lax in past decades about who they allow behind the wheel.

We simply can't have high speed roads until the bad drivers are weeded out and the remaining people are given further training. You have to plan speed-limits around the lowest common denominator (i.e. the least skilled driver) rather than the most highly skilled.

It's a much more difficult task to fix a system that is broken, rather than to implement a working system from the start but unfortunately this is the only option we're left with. I don't expect to see many bad drivers put their hand up and ask for their licenses to be revoked, that's for sure.

[phild12s131e]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

You have to plan speed-limits around the lowest common denominator (i.e. the least skilled driver) rather than the most highly skilled.
.

Are you serious?

Do you have any idea what "lowest common denominator" means?

Based on my own 42 years in the NT alone, that would come down to a combination of cruising on the open road at 40 kph, drunk, falling asleep, trying to avoid hitting a small animal, drug user, talking on a mobile, while smoking and drinking from a XXXX can, no seat belt on, riding in the back of a ute, with twice the number of people on board as there are seats, the driver from overseas so driving on the wrong side of the road, unlicenced (or from the proverbial Weeties packet), unregistered uninsured vehicle or a baby/child on their lap. No doubt there exists in all States these factors for the real/major causes of too many accidents. Then there are the people who insist on going to sleep on roads and other places and get run over or are a suicide success.

In all seriousness, so many road related deaths in the NT are as the result of one or more of the above reasons yet people use the death total to argue against the NT's refusal to follow the Nanny States in remote speed limits. By far the deaths on Territory roads are generally happening in urban or nearby areas with the general Australian similar area speed limits. Where exactly are the statistics to show how many are purely from high speed with no other factors? I can think of only one, and unfortunately multiple deaths, and that was the Cannonball Run.

Maybe we could just lower all Australian limits to a max of 80 kph in line with Wide Load speeds that seem to be common. Going to make for some very long and sleep inducing trips.

Or we could allow natural selection to continue and greatly raise the bar for a Licence.

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by phild12s131e

Are you serious?

Do you have any idea what "lowest common denominator" means?

Based on my own 42 years in the NT alone, that would come down to a combination of cruising on the open road at 40 kph, drunk, falling asleep, trying to avoid hitting a small animal, drug user, talking on a mobile, while smoking and drinking from a XXXX can, no seat belt on, riding in the back of a ute, with twice the number of people on board as there are seats, the driver from overseas so driving on the wrong side of the road, unlicenced (or from the proverbial Weeties packet), unregistered uninsured vehicle or a baby/child on their lap. No doubt there exists in all States these factors for the real/major causes of too many accidents. Then there are the people who insist on going to sleep on roads and other places and get run over or are a suicide success.

In all seriousness, so many road related deaths in the NT are as the result of one or more of the above reasons yet people use the death total to argue against the NT's refusal to follow the Nanny States in remote speed limits. By far the deaths on Territory roads are generally happening in urban or nearby areas with the general Australian similar area speed limits. Where exactly are the statistics to show how many are purely from high speed with no other factors? I can think of only one, and unfortunately multiple deaths, and that was the Cannonball Run.

Maybe we could just lower all Australian limits to a max of 80 kph in line with Wide Load speeds that seem to be common. Going to make for some very long and sleep inducing trips.

Or we could allow natural selection to continue and greatly raise the bar for a Licence.

I guess you missed the point of my post. I come from a country which has unrestricted speed limits in certain areas. I know this to be an efficient system of transport, higher speed limits can actually increase safety as long as ALL drivers are up to the task of driving in those conditions.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

I lived in Germany for 12 years, I came to Australia 11 years ago.

When I arrived in this country where we have long open roads - ideal for high speed travel, I was a bit shocked to hear 110km/h was the maximum speed limit anywhere in my state (SA). However once I had been on the road a while and experienced how little compassion the average drivers here have for one another, I quickly understood why the laws were so draconian. Also the poor skill level of some drivers here is quite disconcerting - in fact many people seem unaware of basic road rules. My first week driving here felt like I was watching Wacky Races.

I think driver education has really failed the general Australian public in the past, it is catching up now but most of the damage has already been done (too many hazards already have their licenses). I'm certainly not saying Australians are bad drivers or anything like that, I just think the governing bodies have been too lax in past decades about who they allow behind the wheel.

We simply can't have high speed roads until the bad drivers are weeded out and the remaining people are given further training. You have to plan speed-limits around the lowest common denominator (i.e. the least skilled driver) rather than the most highly skilled.

It's a much more difficult task to fix a system that is broken, rather than to implement a working system from the start but unfortunately this is the only option we're left with. I don't expect to see many bad drivers put their hand up and ask for their licenses to be revoked, that's for sure.

I agree totally with you.

It's also like, who wants to do an advanced driving training.
Not many would put their hand up and our 3 rate political mob are totally against it all and I have seen the morons have even come out claiming it would encourage hoons.

The ignorance of the common denominator of Australians is total disgrace, as what you hear fools say about every K is a killer etc is just moronic.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by csv8

"NEWS that the Giles Government will move to extend permanently open speed limits north of Alice Springs will certainly divide many in the community.

Open speed limits on Territory highways has been a contentious issue, made all the more confusing by the Government’s refusal to release the facts needed to make informed decisions on what’s best for the people of the Territory – yet another example of the CLP’s failed communications strategy.

But the NT News has now made those results public.

No fatalities over the 12-month trial is certainly a positive.

But lunatic drivers drinking, wearing no seatbelts, reaching speeds of 295km/h and driving uninsured cars are certainly cause for concern.

This is a single lane, curvy highway we’re talking about, not exactly the Autobahn.

It will be incumbent upon all Territorians to remember the old adage that with great speed, comes great responsibility – or words to that effect.

The trauma surgeons are still concerned and rightfully so. Their argument that the safest – and most cost efficient solution if we can’t afford to build an autobahn – is to regulate speed, has merit.

Their argument that the issue has become more about politics and less about public safety is also a good point.

Territorians will have to heed the advice to drive to conditions and remember that this is a great freedom.

But not to drive recklessly.

We appreciate the freedoms this special part of the world has bestowed on us – even open speed limits – but must not let the idiots among us ruin it for everyone else.

Happy motoring." http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/opinio...-1227509960200

Oh come on ! in the NT you could never just drive flat out or without due regard or the cops would deal with you, and that was always a fact.

Hell cause for concern could be just as such in any part of Australia regardless of speed limits.

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by castellan

I agree totally with you.

It's also like, who wants to do an advanced driving training.
Not many would put their hand up and our 3 rate political mob are totally against it all and I have seen the morons have even come out claiming it would encourage hoons.

The ignorance of the common denominator of Australians is total disgrace, as what you hear fools say about every K is a killer etc is just moronic.

Yes, you can learn more about handling a car in 5 minutes on a skid pan than you ever would in 5 years of legal driving on public roads. Anybody that wants the best for themselves and their family should learn these skills voluntarily, rather than finding out the hard way.

Isn't it true that an eye test isn't even required before you can be given an Australian driver's license? The Australian government should have pushed for this and mandatory basic first-aid certificates years ago.

Australia is a great country for so many reasons, I just think the vehicle licensing system leaves a lot to be desired.

[phild12s131e]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

I guess you missed the point of my post. I come from a country which has unrestricted speed limits in certain areas. I know this to be an efficient system of transport, higher speed limits can actually increase safety as long as ALL drivers are up to the task of driving in those conditions.

So what, it's your comment of setting speed limits based on the lowest common denominator that I responded to. Give me the speed limit that you believe that we should have based on that. If you based it on the worst possible driver then you might as well just close all roads and say you can only fly or take a train. There are drivers out there that really are that bad but you just can't lower the limit to their level of incompetence. There's also no way that this country could afford Autobahn type roads crisscrossing the entire country so we have to deal with what we have now.

Another question for you, do you actually have much or any experience on outback roads. For me I've seen the whole Stuart Hwy from when the NT section was just about all narrow bitumen and still 900km of dirt South of the border to what it is now. It has improved enormously already and as for the now unrestricted section it has also been quite improved since our current Govt started the push to unrestricted. Although there are some out there who are pushing their limits I don't feel any more unsafe for it, even on our recent trip with a caravan.

I always feel quite a relief when crossing back over our borders that I don't have to continually watch the speedo and can concentrate on the road ahead and drive to the conditions.

As to your 5 minutes on a skid pan, God help us if you think driving is as simple and limited as that.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Yes, you can learn more about handling a car in 5 minutes on a skid pan than you ever would in 5 years of legal driving on public roads. Anybody that wants the best for themselves and their family should learn these skills voluntarily, rather than finding out the hard way.

Isn't it true that an eye test isn't even required before you can be given an Australian driver's license? The Australian government should have pushed for this and mandatory basic first-aid certificates years ago.

Australia is a great country for so many reasons, I just think the vehicle licensing system leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree with you re our licensing system but not re 'advanced driving' courses. Too many new drivers already think they are bulletproof and putting them through these courses would, in my opinion, make them even more confident in their own abilities leading to possibly worse outcomes.

[Outbackjack]

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/opinio...-1227438926322

[Brazen]

The licensing system is fine here,takes 140 hours to get a license in NSW. 12 in Germany.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

However once I had been on the road a while and experienced how little compassion the average drivers here have for one another, I quickly understood why the laws were so draconian.

DIdn't they have to legislate to introduce compassion among German drivers?

I've driven a lot in Germany over many years (but obviously not as much as you) and I well remember the high-speed intimidation that used to happen before they made it an offence to hassle or road rage other drivers! I wouldn't be surprised if the road toll dropped after that.

Country drivers in Australia are actually pretty good to each other and much more road-savvy and considerate than their city brethren. The problems only come when the city folk head out on holiday.

The laws are so draconian because of all the nannies and Chicken Littles in academe and other "think tanks", plus the government accountants who don't want to see the revenue base diminish. In some 45 years of driving in Australia I'd feel confident in saying that driving standards have fallen in inverse proportion to the ramping up of the "road safety" regime.

I'd even venture to suggest that the fall in road toll is not a result of the "road safety regime" but the fact that cars have become much safer and more accident-resistant by design.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

http://www.ntnews.com.au/news/opinio...-1227438926322

It's nice to see a Journo who doesn't mince words

[XG_Falcon]

Originally Posted by phild12s131e

So what, it's your comment of setting speed limits based on the lowest common denominator that I responded to. Give me the speed limit that you believe that we should have based on that. If you based it on the worst possible driver then you might as well just close all roads and say you can only fly or take a train. There are drivers out there that really are that bad but you just can't lower the limit to their level of incompetence. There's also no way that this country could afford Autobahn type roads crisscrossing the entire country so we have to deal with what we have now.

Another question for you, do you actually have much or any experience on outback roads. For me I've seen the whole Stuart Hwy from when the NT section was just about all narrow bitumen and still 900km of dirt South of the border to what it is now. It has improved enormously already and as for the now unrestricted section it has also been quite improved since our current Govt started the push to unrestricted. Although there are some out there who are pushing their limits I don't feel any more unsafe for it, even on our recent trip with a caravan.

I always feel quite a relief when crossing back over our borders that I don't have to continually watch the speedo and can concentrate on the road ahead and drive to the conditions.

As to your 5 minutes on a skid pan, God help us if you think driving is as simple and limited as that.

Yes, I drive on dirt roads almost every day. I also spend considerable time driving off-road on a cattle ranch in north SA. As far as the lowest-common denominator comment; once you remove all the bad drivers (like I said) the lowest skilled drivers that are left will be capable of driving at 130km/h or higher.

Clearly you've singled me out and are just trying to attack me without really taking my comments in context so I'll refrain from replying to you.

[phild12s131e]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Yes, I drive on dirt roads almost every day. I also spend considerable time driving off-road on a cattle ranch in north SA. As far as the lowest-common denominator comment; once you remove all the bad drivers (like I said) the lowest skilled drivers that are left will be capable of driving at 130km/h or higher.

Clearly you've singled me out and are just trying to attack me without really taking my comments in context so I'll refrain from replying to you.

You singled yourself out and you don't get off that easily. There will always be bad drivers regardless of anything that is done. There will also always be those that feel that any attempt to remove their licence will be responded to by just driving anyway. You can raise the standards of driving for those that wish to improve but the other element will always be there. I see no improvement in driving standards resulting from ever increasing usage of a fines system based on taking a picture of someone and showing it to them a week later or a Court system of wrist slapping. Authorities have given up on basic enforcement of general driving regulations and I think that the ratbag and incompetent element knows it, just as underage kids stealing cars for joyriding know it. With mobile use while driving so rampant if they privatised it I could buy a new expensive car each year.

Therefore it's back to you. I still want to know what you propose is the limit based on the "lowest common denominator"? If you feel that 130 or above is only acceptable when the hopeless are removed from the roads then you must feel that something well short of 130 is what should apply now. What is it?

[noflac52]

Originally Posted by Brazen

The licensing system is fine here,takes 140 hours to get a license in NSW. 12 in Germany.

140 hr's yeah, but you still don't have to be able to drive very well to get that licence!

[pottery beige]

hold it flat until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death

happy motoring

[castellan]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Yes, you can learn more about handling a car in 5 minutes on a skid pan than you ever would in 5 years of legal driving on public roads. Anybody that wants the best for themselves and their family should learn these skills voluntarily, rather than finding out the hard way.

Isn't it true that an eye test isn't even required before you can be given an Australian driver's license? The Australian government should have pushed for this and mandatory basic first-aid certificates years ago.

Australia is a great country for so many reasons, I just think the vehicle licensing system leaves a lot to be desired.

All true.

As for the eye sight test, it is a joke.
I could see the made in Taiwan from where I was standing behind one dude before they put the light on and they made him read out the letters 4 up from the smallest ones and the fact is that test is just rubbish in the real world and as far as I am concerned this is another one of the lowest common denominator factors of the moronic standards we have.

[sexyxe]

Got to drive the open section today. Is in two parts, broken by about 30km due to a small town. Second fastest car that went by me was a Mitsi Triton doing maybe 140. I was in a 94 LandRover Discovery doing 97-102km/h so it was pretty depressing. Of all the cars I have owned this is the slowest and comparatively the thirstiest too.

The quickest was a CLA450/250 4matic Merc came past me doing at least, 200+. That car was humming when it came by. It shook the Disco!

Roads are well maintained, about 10m of clearing on either side and no pot holes to avoid. Hopefully it is extended throughout soon enough

[mechanic]

Originally Posted by sexyxe

Got to drive the open section today. Is in two parts, broken by about 30km due to a small town. Second fastest car that went by me was a Mitsi Triton doing maybe 140. I was in a 94 LandRover Discovery doing 97-102km/h so it was pretty depressing. Of all the cars I have owned this is the slowest and comparatively the thirstiest too.

The quickest was a CLA450/250 4matic Merc came past me doing at least, 200+. That car was humming when it came by. It shook the Disco!

Roads are well maintained, about 10m of clearing on either side and no pot holes to avoid. Hopefully it is extended throughout soon enough

Really impressed that you cranked the Disco up to 100 kph.
Driving my 2.8L diesel Hilux on the M1 at the Gold Coast I was passed by a Nissan ZX something or other. May not have been doing 200 but sounded awesome whatever the speed.
I'll back you up on the NT roads, built to do a decent speed.

[new2ford]

Good heavens, which engine does that Disco have? I had no problems cruising effortlessly at 130 on the Hume in my 1985 V8 Rangie upon which that Disco was based. I don't recall the fuel consumption was that much worse either. That was a beautiful engine.

[smoo]

I used to have a Disco 1 with the 3.9. Good for 170-175 on the limiter.
Took all day to get there but there's not a lot of better sounding engines around.
Fuel consumption wasn't a worry, but breaking down was.

[sexyxe]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Good heavens, which engine does that Disco have? I had no problems cruising effortlessly at 130 on the Hume in my 1985 V8 Rangie upon which that Disco was based. I don't recall the fuel consumption was that much worse either. That was a beautiful engine.

3.9 V8 pushing through the 4 speed. Cruises easy enough faster than that (110-115) however was more in the game for economy as I'm driving Melbourne to Darwin. I'm averaging around the 13/100 mark. I took it to 130 for all of two seconds, but that means it is sitting at 4000rpm to do so! Even at 105 it is at 3000rpm. Not geared for the highway unfortunately.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by sexyxe

3.9 V8 pushing through the 4 speed. Cruises easy enough faster than that (110-115) however was more in the game for economy as I'm driving Melbourne to Darwin. I'm averaging around the 13/100 mark. I took it to 130 for all of two seconds, but that means it is sitting at 4000rpm to do so! Even at 105 it is at 3000rpm. Not geared for the highway unfortunately.

A bit OT sorry, but my Rangie had 5 speed gearbox (on 3.5 V8) which would probably explain the better high speed cruising. I'm surprised the Disco still had only 4 speed 10 years later!

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by XG_Falcon

Yes, you can learn more about handling a car in 5 minutes on a skid pan than you ever would in 5 years of legal driving on public roads. Anybody that wants the best for themselves and their family should learn these skills voluntarily, rather than finding out the hard way.

Isn't it true that an eye test isn't even required before you can be given an Australian driver's license? The Australian government should have pushed for this and mandatory basic first-aid certificates years ago.

Australia is a great country for so many reasons, I just think the vehicle licensing system leaves a lot to be desired.

After working as a defensive trainer, all post licence, for the most part of the last 28 years I reckon skid pans are a load of shyte

Drivers need to learn and understand what puts them into a skid and control that rather than the affects of not getting it right, it is too late if you are in a skid, you are in the lap of the gods.

Defensive driving means driving to the conditions, which means paying attention to everything around you and not getting into a skid to start with. Skid control is like taking birth control after you are pregnant! It is best to not get into the situation to start with

Fix the cause, not rely on the cure!!!!!

If you reckon the "learning how to control a skidding car" is the bees knees then you have a lot to learn and shouldn't be commenting on "defensive driving" as you obviously don't know what it really means

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by xxx000

I agree with you re our licensing system but not re 'advanced driving' courses. Too many new drivers already think they are bulletproof and putting them through these courses would, in my opinion, make them even more confident in their own abilities leading to possibly worse outcomes.

and that is a fact, many corporate "defensive driving' courses that relied purely on skid control have been abandoned by businesses as their statistics were showing that this type of 'training' actually increased most peoples risk taking behaviour, in fact documented by a few companies.

I think you would struggle to find a 'defensive driving' course that is 100% skid control, if you do, then avoid them like the plague, they are useless

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

and that is a fact, many corporate "defensive driving' courses that relied purely on skid control have been abandoned by businesses as their statistics were showing that this type of 'training' actually increased most peoples risk taking behaviour, in fact documented by a few companies.

I think you would struggle to find a 'defensive driving' course that is 100% skid control, if you do, then avoid them like the plague, they are useless

I agree with you, but are there courses that only relied on skid control truly around.

I would think a government backed type of thing is the go, with incentive sweetener to reduce you rego CTP a bit to get the people involved, that way would be the biggest and best way to reduce a hell of a lot of problems on the road.
Not just spending money on moronic adds like speed kills. it's ignorance that kills and all !

Maybe if cops could direct some drivers, that they feel such a person would benefit to better their education, like people on the phone or doing any real stupid foolish things.
Especially when the person is unrepentant and starts giving a mouth full to a cop, I think their could be, just cause then.

All the people I know that have done a course have come away impressed that it was of very much benefit to them.

How many people come away from being stung X amount of dollars impressed, they are only mainly angered about it all and have not learnt nothing at all and some times it only builds up a hatred of the government and police and this only adds to start up the s--t fights against the police officer when pulling them up.

And the biggest problem of all, is that the people are loosing faith in the police that I see about the place and it's not the police, but the derelict governments position, that are truly at fault in all this built up hatred mainly.

[GasoLane]

Getting slightly off topic Gents.

[noflac52]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

After working as a defensive trainer, all post licence, for the most part of the last 28 years I reckon skid pans are a load of shyte

Drivers need to learn and understand what puts them into a skid and control that rather than the affects of not getting it right, it is too late if you are in a skid, you are in the lap of the gods.

Defensive driving means driving to the conditions, which means paying attention to everything around you and not getting into a skid to start with. Skid control is like taking birth control after you are pregnant! It is best to not get into the situation to start with

Fix the cause, not rely on the cure!!!!!

If you reckon the "learning how to control a skidding car" is the bees knees then you have a lot to learn and shouldn't be commenting on "defensive driving" as you obviously don't know what it really means

Fix the cause not rely on the cure!!!! Lack of vehicle control is a major part of the cause.

Well we may as well pull every passive safety device out of our vehicles!!! If the cause is the only important factor here as you state.

So you can guarantee that a driver will never encounter a situation that requires advanced vehicle control after they complete your defensive driving course hey? That's a really big call!!!!

They will never encounter spilled liquid on the roadway. They will never aquaplane during wet weather. They will never have to take evasive action due to unforseen circumstances.

Its not too late if you are in a skid. You are only in the lap of the gods if you have no idea what you are doing. The event is in progress yes, but until an accident occurs a drivers ability to correct the situation plays a vital role in avoidance.

Defensive driving, advanced vehicle control and attitude adjustment all need to be addressed. Then we can see some increased speed limits on our road system. There are many drivers out there who could take advantage of increased speed limits right away but we could do with a lot more.