Australia nearly completely dependant on imported fuel...

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Within 5-7 years wont be in servos. There will be no demand.

Actually how is demand going for LPG for automotive use? Anyone in the industry or work at a servo who has seen change over time?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Actually how is demand going for LPG for automotive use? Anyone in the industry or work at a servo who has seen change over time?

Don't know about automotive use, but overall as a percentage of all energy sources, its fallen around 2% by share over the last 10 years. As fleets move away from falcadores, that figure should fall further. And its a complete non-event in private automotive use.

[Bill M]

Where has all the LPG gone?

We’ve spent significant time, energy and money in creating a national supply of LPG

The number of service stations supplying LPG looks set to continue to decline in the wake of decreasing demand for the locally-sourced fuel that was once popular with large Australian-made cars.

Federal government figures show demand for LPG in the 12 months to 30 June 2015 dropped 8 per cent off the back of a 4.3 per cent decline for the preceding year.

read more here...
http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/conne...emand-decrease

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

That's the kicker, LPG is essentially a by-product of oil refining. Once the refineries all close up, where's the LPG going to come from...?

Not any more.
Majority of LPG now comes from Natural Gas.

And of course there is still the option to run Cars & Trucks/ Buses on either CNG or LNG.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Actually how is demand going for LPG for automotive use? Anyone in the industry or work at a servo who has seen change over time?

Demand has fallen, but that should just make it cheaper for the rest of us.

I don't know what the next generation of taxis will be, but unless they are diesel, they will still be converted to LPG.

Future demand may even increase, as manufacturers are forced away from diesels to meet Euro compliance.

Those who keep chanting "people don't buy big cars any more" need to have a look outside their window occasionally.
The "typical family car" is now a big SUV.

Yep, we've actually become MORE like America.

[Hardtopxb]

About 9 years ago there was a study into the 'Ramifications of an invasion to mainland Australia'. This was for the Defence dept. Part of this study was into the impact of 'Fuel supply and usage'. It was found basically...

The Australian military would run out of all types of fuel within 1 MONTH.
This is taking into account. Our fuel supply line would most probably be cut. Even with the appropriation of all available fuel other than emergency services etc.
The military forces would grind to halt within that month, therefore leaving this country open to complete takeover.
This the was basic scenario..
Did the Government take any notice at all ? Nope..

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by kazawaki

If the NT did ever get into being a food bowl that would be just dandy for the Chinese leased port.Why do you think the Chinese are buying up farms, its not an accident.

I'm glad they put a stop to that monster station being bought. But that was just political vote buying I imagine

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by fps_grandma

Have you crunched the numbers on how long it takes to at least break even? Including potential maintenance and replacement?

I did stay on a self-sufficient remote property with:
- Fireplace is used to heat water, toast or cook
- Cooking is also done on portable gas stoves
- All electricity comes from numerous solar panels
- All water comes from a rainwater tank
- Wastewater goes to a separate septic tank
- A hut for the tools and cars
- Veggie patch and chickens

Theoretically great especially if you are an elderly couple but I'm not of a vintage age yet and the circuit breaker kept tripping.

N.B. Cops in the past have raided the neighbours for weed in case anyone has been wondering.



I just wish that the efficiency of solar-to-electrical energy conversion is greater than 20% last time I checked.
In the meantime I'll stick to a Turbo 6 petrol.

I did mate. I got everything at my trade price and the old folks convinced me to do it for nothing.
Hah.

[Bill M]

It appears govts have abrogated their responsibilities for the nation concerning fuel supplies...

Doubts over Australia's fuel security as bureaucrats admit not knowing reserves

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politi...#ixzz4BFmiVVTr
Follow us: @smh on Twitter | sydneymorningherald on Facebook

[GO FURTHER]

The worst case scenario…..

World war III breaks out.
The borders are now closed.
Sea channels to Oz are no longer safe.
Oil tankers no longer come down under without US naval escort.

The poor suckers who bought a diesel SUV are the first to run dry and cry.
The government places an immediate embargo on diesel fuel to run essential trucking, emergency services, and the military.
Petrol is highly rationed but runs out anyway; the military guard what’s left in petrol stations and refineries.

Supermarkets run dry. Toilet paper, batteries, candles and canned food are the first shelves emptied.
With transport, food and fuel out, people no longer get to work.
Most non-essential businesses are now closed … No one is buying anyway.

The government places a moratorium on mortgages and the banks so people don’t loose their homes. Renters can’t be kicked out either.
No one leaves their home at night, military curfew is in place.
Looters are shoot on sight.

Civil riots and anarchy fill the city and urban burbs.

Those that have prepared and can hide away in the bush are safe for a while.

We need to defend ourselves.

Conscription is back…. Dole bludgers are first, then the fit under 35’s.
The Y generation learns there’s more to life than an iPhone, Facebook and Twitter. Boys suddenly become men very quickly....They learn a coin can bounce on a bed sheet and spit can polish boots.
Most able-bodied people join up anyway… 3 meals a day guaranteed beats standing in a long soup queue.

Now the realization sets in…

Field Marshall: “We need uniforms for our soldiers!”
Military supply department: “Sir… The last of our textile industry moved offshore back in 2010, we import most of our clothes from China”… The borders are closed!

Field Marshall: “We need jeeps and vehicles to move our troops!”

Military supply department: “Sir, … Ford, Holden and Toyota closed up shop, everything is imported”


Field Marshall: “ Don’t tell me… We import all our guns as well!”


But don’t worry… The USA will protect us and in return, maybe not in your lifetime, but maybe in your great grand children’s lifetime… Australia will become the 51st state of the United States of America.

God help Australia and have mercy on our Falcons!

[Crazy Dazz]

Australia is an Island, and in terms of the world's major powers and economies, a relatively isolated one at that.
It's hardly surprising then that throughout history we have chosen to Ally ourselves with the most powerful navies in the world. First the British, now the USA.

And who exactly (in our half of the world anyway) is going start this WW3? China? A country that can't feed itself, and whose entire entire economy is built on import/export.

I would much rather be in our situation, where we are completely self-sufficient in power generation, and have more than enough food, than one of the many countries that depends on imports for both.

Ultimately, if you want to talk about doomsday scenarios, it doesn't really make much difference whether we have refineries or not. In fact, if we're reduced to bringing in tankers under naval escort, then better to bring in diesel rather than crude.

[paulb351]

Couple of observations:-

Crude Oil quality: Aussie crude Oil (particularly Bass Straight Oil) is high in sulphur content making it less suitable for refining for petrol/diesel usage with vehicle usage now much more dependent on higher quality fuels than 30 years ago. Read more costly to refine as a result of the extra refining to remove the elements and less efficient outcomes compared with refining the crude oil for other oil based products. Easier to import fuel from other crude stock from elsewhere in the world.

Refining: As someone else mentioned, scale of refining is a problem where overseas refineries produce product for much lower unit cost... (who wants cheap fuel?)

Fuel Security: USA has "strategic reserve" of crude oil of sometimes 2 years consumption. Obviously in AUS we don't have that level of storage capacity and with limited local refining capacity the ability to do so doesn't add up???

LPG: Australia about to become one of the largest exporters of Gas products with Browse, Curtis Is & Impex coming online...

[Trump]

Originally Posted by paulb351

Couple of observations:-

Crude Oil quality: Aussie crude Oil (particularly Bass Straight Oil) is high in sulphur content making it less suitable for refining for petrol/diesel usage with vehicle usage now much more dependent on higher quality fuels than 30 years ago. Read more costly to refine as a result of the extra refining to remove the elements and less efficient outcomes compared with refining the crude oil for other oil based products. Easier to import fuel from other crude stock from elsewhere in the world.

Refining: As someone else mentioned, scale of refining is a problem where overseas refineries produce product for much lower unit cost... (who wants cheap fuel?)

Fuel Security: USA has "strategic reserve" of crude oil of sometimes 2 years consumption. Obviously in AUS we don't have that level of storage capacity and with limited local refining capacity the ability to do so doesn't add up???

LPG: Australia about to become one of the largest exporters of Gas products with Browse, Curtis Is & Impex coming online...

Northwest Shelf oil from what I can recall was considered one of the best oils for petrol as it was a light, sweet crude oil which required less refining when compared to Saudi crude.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by fps_grandma

I did stay on a self-sufficient remote property with:
- Cooking is also done on portable gas stoves

where does the gas come from?

there's a difference between self-sufficient and 'off the grid'.

I lived in a place that had the fire to heat the water. it's a ***** having the fire go on a hot day just so you can have a non-freezing shower.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Northwest Shelf oil from what I can recall was considered one of the best oils for petrol as it was a light, sweet crude oil which required less refining when compared to Saudi crude.

Yes most Aussie crude is light and good mainly only for petrol but not sweet, it mainly has high sulphur.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

The worst case scenario…..

World war III breaks out.
The borders are now closed.
Sea channels to Oz are no longer safe.
Oil tankers no longer come down under without US naval escort.

The poor suckers who bought a diesel SUV are the first to run dry and cry.
The government places an immediate embargo on diesel fuel to run essential trucking, emergency services, and the military.
Petrol is highly rationed but runs out anyway; the military guard what’s left in petrol stations and refineries.

Supermarkets run dry. Toilet paper, batteries, candles and canned food are the first shelves emptied.
With transport, food and fuel out, people no longer get to work.
Most non-essential businesses are now closed … No one is buying anyway.

The government places a moratorium on mortgages and the banks so people don’t loose their homes. Renters can’t be kicked out either.
No one leaves their home at night, military curfew is in place.
Looters are shoot on sight.

Civil riots and anarchy fill the city and urban burbs.

Those that have prepared and can hide away in the bush are safe for a while.

We need to defend ourselves.

Conscription is back…. Dole bludgers are first, then the fit under 35’s.
The Y generation learns there’s more to life than an iPhone, Facebook and Twitter. Boys suddenly become men very quickly....They learn a coin can bounce on a bed sheet and spit can polish boots.
Most able-bodied people join up anyway… 3 meals a day guaranteed beats standing in a long soup queue.

Now the realization sets in…

Field Marshall: “We need uniforms for our soldiers!”
Military supply department: “Sir… The last of our textile industry moved offshore back in 2010, we import most of our clothes from China”… The borders are closed!

Field Marshall: “We need jeeps and vehicles to move our troops!”

Military supply department: “Sir, … Ford, Holden and Toyota closed up shop, everything is imported”


Field Marshall: “ Don’t tell me… We import all our guns as well!”


But don’t worry… The USA will protect us and in return, maybe not in your lifetime, but maybe in your great grand children’s lifetime… Australia will become the 51st state of the United States of America.

God help Australia and have mercy on our Falcons!

We talk much about the War but not much about the battle, war is one thing but the battle is on going, such never ends, so our gov just have to roll over and milk it for what they can they don't have any power and we are all pawns to what ever our Political Correct gods says now.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

The worst case scenario…..

World war III breaks out.
The borders are now closed.
Sea channels to Oz are no longer safe.
Oil tankers no longer come down under without US naval escort.

The poor suckers who bought a diesel SUV are the first to run dry and cry.
The government places an immediate embargo on diesel fuel to run essential trucking, emergency services, and the military.
Petrol is highly rationed but runs out anyway; the military guard what’s left in petrol stations and refineries.

Supermarkets run dry. Toilet paper, batteries, candles and canned food are the first shelves emptied.
With transport, food and fuel out, people no longer get to work.
Most non-essential businesses are now closed … No one is buying anyway.

The government places a moratorium on mortgages and the banks so people don’t loose their homes. Renters can’t be kicked out either.
No one leaves their home at night, military curfew is in place.
Looters are shoot on sight.

Civil riots and anarchy fill the city and urban burbs.

Those that have prepared and can hide away in the bush are safe for a while.

We need to defend ourselves.

Conscription is back…. Dole bludgers are first, then the fit under 35’s.
The Y generation learns there’s more to life than an iPhone, Facebook and Twitter. Boys suddenly become men very quickly....They learn a coin can bounce on a bed sheet and spit can polish boots.
Most able-bodied people join up anyway… 3 meals a day guaranteed beats standing in a long soup queue.

Now the realization sets in…

Field Marshall: “We need uniforms for our soldiers!”
Military supply department: “Sir… The last of our textile industry moved offshore back in 2010, we import most of our clothes from China”… The borders are closed!

Field Marshall: “We need jeeps and vehicles to move our troops!”

Military supply department: “Sir, … Ford, Holden and Toyota closed up shop, everything is imported”


Field Marshall: “ Don’t tell me… We import all our guns as well!”


But don’t worry… The USA will protect us and in return, maybe not in your lifetime, but maybe in your great grand children’s lifetime… Australia will become the 51st state of the United States of America.

God help Australia and have mercy on our Falcons!

I'm not worried, I've got a coupe so i'm set....

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

The worst case scenario…..

World war III breaks out.
The borders are now closed.
Sea channels to Oz are no longer safe.
Oil tankers no longer come down under without US naval escort.

The poor suckers who bought a diesel SUV are the first to run dry and cry.
The government places an immediate embargo on diesel fuel to run essential trucking, emergency services, and the military.
Petrol is highly rationed but runs out anyway; the military guard what’s left in petrol stations and refineries.

Supermarkets run dry. Toilet paper, batteries, candles and canned food are the first shelves emptied.
With transport, food and fuel out, people no longer get to work.
Most non-essential businesses are now closed … No one is buying anyway.

The government places a moratorium on mortgages and the banks so people don’t loose their homes. Renters can’t be kicked out either.
No one leaves their home at night, military curfew is in place.
Looters are shoot on sight.

Civil riots and anarchy fill the city and urban burbs.

Those that have prepared and can hide away in the bush are safe for a while.

We need to defend ourselves.

Conscription is back…. Dole bludgers are first, then the fit under 35’s.
The Y generation learns there’s more to life than an iPhone, Facebook and Twitter. Boys suddenly become men very quickly....They learn a coin can bounce on a bed sheet and spit can polish boots.
Most able-bodied people join up anyway… 3 meals a day guaranteed beats standing in a long soup queue.

Now the realization sets in…

Field Marshall: “We need uniforms for our soldiers!”
Military supply department: “Sir… The last of our textile industry moved offshore back in 2010, we import most of our clothes from China”… The borders are closed!

Field Marshall: “We need jeeps and vehicles to move our troops!”

Military supply department: “Sir, … Ford, Holden and Toyota closed up shop, everything is imported”


Field Marshall: “ Don’t tell me… We import all our guns as well!”


But don’t worry… The USA will protect us and in return, maybe not in your lifetime, but maybe in your great grand children’s lifetime… Australia will become the 51st state of the United States of America.

God help Australia and have mercy on our Falcons!

51st State?................I thought Hawaii got that gig.

Cheers Mick

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by HO 3

51st State?................I thought Hawaii got that gig.

Cheers Mick

As of September 2014, the United States consists of 50 states, with 48 located within the continental United States. The other two states are Hawaii and Alaska.

[HO 3]

Originally Posted by BAXRSIX

As of September 2014, the United States consists of 50 states, with 48 located within the continental United States. The other two states are Hawaii and Alaska.

Lol...................I can only wish cutting twenty something year old dependants off the tit was so easy.


Cheers Mick

[2011G6E]

I know where there's most likely a massive amount of oil reserves just close by.

Many years ago when Joh was the Premier in Queensland, he let a French company do preliminary oil exploration out on the continental shelf the other side of the Barrier Reef. Initial results showed every sign of vast reserves of oil out there...as you would expect on the edge of a continental shelf area. They were going to do seismic surveys but green groups went off their tree about it, organising massive protests and international bans on doing it. This was part of what ended up leading to the World Heritage listing of the reef, banning any further exploration of any sort.

The oil is still there. And when push comes to shove, when the price and demand rises high enough...

The real criminal act being foisted on the public in Australia however is gas...we pay some of the highest costs for gas, yet we have some of the largest reserves in the world and export it for cents a liter. We could be completely self reliant when it comes to gas supply.

Oh...and whatever happened to those crude oil wells out west that were supplying "light crude" of such quality that normal diesel engines would run on it straight out of the ground with only a few small tweaks...? Big news about it many years back, not it's gone very quiet and nothing has been heard for years...

[Trump]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I know where there's most likely a massive amount of oil reserves just close by.

Many years ago when Joh was the Premier in Queensland, he let a French company do preliminary oil exploration out on the continental shelf the other side of the Barrier Reef. Initial results showed every sign of vast reserves of oil out there...as you would expect on the edge of a continental shelf area. They were going to do seismic surveys but green groups went off their tree about it, organising massive protests and international bans on doing it. This was part of what ended up leading to the World Heritage listing of the reef, banning any further exploration of any sort.

The oil is still there. And when push comes to shove, when the price and demand rises high enough...

The real criminal act being foisted on the public in Australia however is gas...we pay some of the highest costs for gas, yet we have some of the largest reserves in the world and export it for cents a liter. We could be completely self reliant when it comes to gas supply.

Oh...and whatever happened to those crude oil wells out west that were supplying "light crude" of such quality that normal diesel engines would run on it straight out of the ground...? Big news about it many years back, not it's gone very quiet and nothing has been heard for years...

Because fossil fuels are politically incorrect doncha know...

[Sprintey]

Get yer ol' Falcons and moonshinin' gear together boys! Advance that timing and adjust those jets

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_...nol_drane.html

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

Because fossil fuels are politically incorrect doncha know...

Exactly.

People talk about oil and how we should stop using it NOW, and say "You don't need so many private vehicles...you can take public transport".

They forget one little thing.
All those airliners aren't held up by angel kisses and unicorn flatulence.
All those massive container ships circling the globe that are vital to world trade aren't powered by sails or teams of rowers.

There's plenty of oil...decades ago in the seventies we were assured it would all be gone by the year 2000 at the latest, with severe rationing in the 1990's to dole out the dregs that were left. But more and more is discovered every year. There is even a suspicion that some oil fields may be getting "refilled" by deep microbial action in the crust which we don't quite understand yet.

The world runs on two things: oil and coal...and will for a long long time to come yet.

[Sprintey]

More seriously,

We still have Kwinana, Corio and Altona, still have Bass Straight crude and gas, still have great reserves all over the country of hydrocarbons, "money in the bank", it's a bit like a strategic reserve. We have skilled drillers and rig operators, right down to the teams that can bring reserves to market. We have geothermal, and a truckload of sunshine and wind, and tide.
We are allied to the greatest naval power in the world today.
They are forward deployed in Asia, have a search for "pivot to Asia", "air sea battle" or its evolution. Search for the amphib capabilities of the assumed rival as well.
Yes, it's likely the Straits of Malacca (Singapore) will be shut or have drastically reduced flow in event of conflict. Our leaders were morons for permitting the situation to arise where a majority of our fuel is refined, and comes through there. But hey, free trade, cheaper stuff: some of the points always parroted on this forum by those enjoying the demise of domestic industry. We won't have the capability to ramp up long-gone factories for Jeeps, we won't be able to have a CAC (Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation) again, but SA will be turned into a naval yard. The western world runs on diesel

(Great link: )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCA5pInfPpM

and surely with the amount of sub par farmland, brackish groundwater and huge spaces we could do the algal oil thing if needed to refine diesel. Or,: mimic zee Chermans and do the Fisher Troph turning that beautiful, lifesaving Victorian Brown Coal into diesel...

Individually: sunlight on roof. Wood heaters that can double as a stove. Battery banks. Ability to brew a beer (and then distill it - check legality for now, will it matter if TSHTF?). Old petrol motors modified to run on it, OR, E85 Commodore (VEII, VY MY14) with a chip tune for 100% ethanol. Biodiesel - get your transesterification on! Ability to grow vegies, on small or large plots. In self watering boxes for those in urban areas. & I am sure there is so much more, but you get the jist...

[PooDog]

you guys think your in the poo !!
in NZ apparently we have about 7 days of fuel storage to major cities if the taps turned off , they havent spent any $ on storage and as all the old tanks deteriorate they just shut them down (resource consents are to hard to get) to replace

as for defence of the nation , we"ll come to your rescue !! umm i think weve got some old skyhawks somewhere we could dust off or are they in a museum ....im sure we could get them going, and i think weve got some frigates but apparently there not good at sea ??? just for around the harbour
but hey ...if anyone tries to get us we"ll all go down to the beach and throw spears at them !!

[Sprintey]

You guys in NZ will be OK. Ethanol distillation is legal, so there should be a strong undercurrent of guys distilling their own already. You are on the sea lanes between us and US; there was a reason for the Battle of Santa Cruz, Battle of Eastern Solomons, 1st Battle of Savo Island, 7th Division in Solomons, Henderson Field, etc etc... I would think NZ and Aus Military can act together without too many barriers, as we Aussies can integrate into US units...

Other than that, burn lanolin oil from fleece? (haha)

Or maybe show them the movie "Bad Taste" (one of my all time favourites) and tell them all of NZ is like that

[castellan]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

I know where there's most likely a massive amount of oil reserves just close by.

Many years ago when Joh was the Premier in Queensland, he let a French company do preliminary oil exploration out on the continental shelf the other side of the Barrier Reef. Initial results showed every sign of vast reserves of oil out there...as you would expect on the edge of a continental shelf area. They were going to do seismic surveys but green groups went off their tree about it, organising massive protests and international bans on doing it. This was part of what ended up leading to the World Heritage listing of the reef, banning any further exploration of any sort.

The oil is still there. And when push comes to shove, when the price and demand rises high enough...

The real criminal act being foisted on the public in Australia however is gas...we pay some of the highest costs for gas, yet we have some of the largest reserves in the world and export it for cents a liter. We could be completely self reliant when it comes to gas supply.

Oh...and whatever happened to those crude oil wells out west that were supplying "light crude" of such quality that normal diesel engines would run on it straight out of the ground with only a few small tweaks...? Big news about it many years back, not it's gone very quiet and nothing has been heard for years...

Out west QLD we were making Standard petrol only not Super and the bean counters worked out not in favour due to the cost of making Super, not to mention Unleaded and that's why it was given up on.

Plenty oil taped off everywhere that I have seen out in the sticks, it's just to costly to be viable.

I believe some of the oil coming out of the ground out west did run a petrol car back in the early days with a compression ratio they once had of about 4:1

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by new2ford

And how does it get from the oil fields to your refinery?

By road train from Dongara.