Dunnydore's going worldwide

[buggerlugs]

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...006301,00.html
The spin doctors are at it again....................

[HUNTER8]

The PR machine at Holden seem to be making more announcements than a politician in election year at the moment......................

[MarkIV]

What an amazing selective quoting of what was said!

What he really said was that "the GRWD project is canned!
We would like to do it but we aren't at the moment"!

"Maybe in the future but don't hold your breath".

I am stunned.

[Buzz Box]

Wasn't that plan the one that was supposed to be for the current platform thus the camaro etc?

[XR6_190]

Good work from the spin doctors and marketing guru's yet again, but as I see it, this may not necisserily be a good thing. The way I see it at the moment, variations of the Aus built Commodore are sold in the Middle East, New Zealand, UK, USA and parts of South America, that is a good thing really, because it means they are selling as many as they can realistically build at Elizabeth.

If they go fully global, they won't be able to build that many cars at the one plant, which means they will need to build a new plant, now they aren't going to do that here, it will most likely be somewhere like China or India, and when they see how many cars they can churn out and at what price, why wouldn't they just build them all there and shut down Elizabeth.

I honestly don't think that Holden are in that much better shape then Ford Aus.

[Iggypoppin']

I'd be more inclined to think they would manufacture them at GM's main plant and just copy everything they do now with it. That's if they went global, which I doubt would ever happen on a scale requiring a second plant

[GS608]

Its funny how last week when Ford announced that GRWD was put on the shelf everyone was saying how its the end of the Falcon, but GM puts Zeta on the shelf and the commodore is the savior to be?

[axeray]

You gotta love spin doctors. What a great job. You get to make stuff up and talk crap all day.

[Bud Bud]

I can't see where the problem is and why so much negativity surrounds this article??? Surly it is not just because this is a Ford Forum only.

I know this is good news for Holden, but it is coming from Detroit and not just OZ as well. At least GM (if it survives) can still see a future for rear wheel drive architecture and indeed recognises that it will need to become leaner and lighter for future applications. Holden should be congratulated for starting to push this barrow from Australia a decade ago. I know people here have laughed at Holden’s attempt for US sales but now those attempts are slowly gathering momentum in the right circles. The Yanks have not been soured by their dealings with our cars. There are no guaranties because anything can and will happen because of the downturn but at least they are thinking out aloud in the right direction.

It would be fantaststic if Ford US could only see what they have in our Aussie engineers and how good the Falcon really is, not only in OZ but dollar for dollar it would be the best replacement as a Lincoln/Crown Vic world car. Why can't they see this??? Who is pushing the Falcons barrow??? I would love to see this type of spin from Ford!!!

The problem Ford has, in a nut shell, is resistance to change. The Ford family's tight grip on the company has always resisted change. Even in Australia we do not want to let go of the aging 6 cylinder concept (even though it is a very modern generation of its type) because of the heritage this great power plant has developed over the passing decades. Resistance to adopting a world engine like the 3.5 litre V6 Duratec has only helped to make this car an orphan and less relevant on the world stage today. I for one hope this thinking will not lead to the Falcons demise overall as well.

Spin, sure.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I can't see where the problem is and why so much negativity surrounds this article??? Surly it is not just because this is a Ford Forum only.

I know this is good news for Holden, but it is coming from Detroit and not just OZ as well. At least GM (if it survives) can still see a future for rear wheel drive architecture and indeed recognises that it will need to become leaner and lighter for future applications. Holden should be congratulated for starting to push this barrow from Australia a decade ago. I know people here have laughed at Holden’s attempt for US sales but now those attempts are slowly gathering momentum in the right circles. The Yanks have not been soured by their dealings with our cars. There are no guaranties because anything can and will happen because of the downturn but at least they are thinking out aloud in the right direction.

Ford have made just as many press releases about the future of FoA. Bill Osbourne said the Falcon would return fuel figures around the 7l/100 mark and Marin Burela* (spelling?) said Ford would be producing a car that is to be sold in over 60 countries, much better than the 10 or so the Commode is going to now.

[4Vman]

Same old same old..... the same basic story gets run around every year and has for the past 15 years, all they do is change the date and names of the players.. nothing ever eventuates.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

I know this is good news for Holden

The thing is - it is not good news !
It is actually bad news (No GRWD - same as Ford announced last week).
Polished with a bit of maybe .. sometime.

The main objection here is that the media are favourably reporting this anouncement, when the exact same decision (well as close as business models allow) made by Ford was accompanied by a Taurus, and heralded with gloom and doom.

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Ford have made just as many press releases about the future of FoA. Bill Osbourne said the Falcon would return fuel figures around the 7l/100 mark and Marin Burela* (spelling?) said Ford would be producing a car that is to be sold in over 60 countries, much better than the 10 or so the Commode is going to now.

Except for one important thing, and that is that the article states from Detroit that next US RWD program will be built around the Zeta platform (as it was always intended) guaranteeing rear wheel drive Commies for the Australian market in the future and beyond. Where is the flag flying for the Falcons future? Thats right it is wrapt up in the surrounding negativity that Ford everywhere (except Europe) has become, and I am sick of it…

[GTpilot]

pff, just look at who wrote it.

[Serial_Fool]

Bud Bud- If you think that the 3.5 Dura-crapo-tech was in anyway a world class engine you would have to be kidding yourself. Just because an engine is going to be deployed overseas doesnt make it a great one. The Inline has been kept for a few reasons:

1. Superior torque/power over the 3.5
2. The 3.5 inablility to fit in the Falcon's engine bay.
3. The changed Australian Dollar.
4. The uproar by Ford fans over the move (but I doubt this would have been a major factor like the other 3).

Now, regaurding the RWD platforms of GM and Ford.

Ford NA has been embedded with FWD for more then 25 years, what makes you think that they will stop? The unveiling of the new FWD Tarsus is just about the nail in the coffin for Falcon's export aspirations for the American sedan market. The Crown Victoria in America still gets bought even though the basic engineering dates back to the late 1970's, why bring in a new fancy IRS car that would cost more to make and possibly bring down sales? They'll run the CV until the sales dry up without a second thought. Mustang has always been its own platform since the 70's and it would be very doubtful if the Yanks would ever get outside help (Ford Aus) for future development (even if shoving the IRS of the Falcon underneath the Mustang's backside is a no brainer).

Commodores didn't sell for GM in the United States. Most of them are still sitting unsold. Whats the point of exporting a car when you can't get the money back?

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by Serial_Fool

Bud Bud- If you think that the 3.5 Dura-crapo-tech was in anyway a world class engine you would have to be kidding yourself. Just because an engine is going to be deployed overseas doesnt make it a great one. The Inline has been kept for a few reasons:

1. Superior torque/power over the 3.5
2. The 3.5 inablility to fit in the Falcon's engine bay.
3. The changed Australian Dollar.
4. The uproar by Ford fans over the move (but I doubt this would have been a major factor like the other 3).

Now, regaurding the RWD platforms of GM and Ford.

Ford NA has been embedded with FWD for more then 25 years, what makes you think that they will stop? The unveiling of the new FWD Tarsus is just about the nail in the coffin for Falcon's export aspirations for the American sedan market. The Crown Victoria in America still gets bought even though the basic engineering dates back to the late 1970's, why bring in a new fancy IRS car that would cost more to make and possibly bring down sales? They'll run the CV until the sales dry up without a second thought. Mustang has always been its own platform since the 70's and it would be very doubtful if the Yanks would ever get outside help (Ford Aus) for future development (even if shoving the IRS of the Falcon underneath the Mustang's backside is a no brainer).

Commodores didn't sell for GM in the United States. Most of them are still sitting unsold. Whats the point of exporting a car when you can't get the money back?

1) First of all I never claimed that the 3.5 V6 was a world class engine but I don't believe that it would be as bad as you suggest either (no I have not driven one). It just makes good sense for Ford Aus to create an export program around it. I agree that the dollar changes things, making it dearer to import but that also means that the cars ultimately become cheaper to export if you have some sort of export program in place as well. This could mean that the Falcon will never be exported as a left hand drive.

2) I know the I6 is good you know it is good, but does anybody out side of Australia know or even care???

3) Why not bring in a new fancy IRS car because the old one will need to be replaced one day and this one is already here. This type of thinking only galvanises the reasons why the US public are not queuing up to buy US made in the first place.

4) They are happy (not elated) with the G8 as they have sold half of what they intended so far (I know that there is yards full of them but there are yards full of everything ATM). All this when gas reached $4 a gallon the Aussie dollar reached 97 cents and there is a credit melt down to rival nothing in the past.

All this is immaterial because as I originally said the car its self is actually being noticed in the right circles. The G8 has already been earmarked to form the backbone of Pontiac's very survival. The Zeta architecture is beginning to prove its value to GM and Holden is holding the keys. Isn't that what this article is actually about? I wish I could say the same about Ford Aus.

I repeat I know there are no guaranties but if we all stuck our head in the sand well...

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Except for one important thing, and that is that the article states from Detroit that next US RWD program will be built around the Zeta platform (as it was always intended) guaranteeing rear wheel drive Commies for the Australian market in the future and beyond. Where is the flag flying for the Falcons future? Thats right it is wrapt up in the surrounding negativity that Ford everywhere (except Europe) has become, and I am sick of it…

Except that GM has cancelled its R&D on large cars and Holden sacked most of its engineering department. The VE will end up being Australia's version of the Crown Victoria (30 year platform) mean time the rest of the Automotive world will keep raising the bar higher.

[Nikked]

lol, Gm/holden will say anything.

[Serial_Fool]

Who needs a "new fancy IRS" when they don't even have IRS in RWD cars in the first place. Mustang= Live axle, Crown Vic= Live axle.

My views on what the RWD program for the US should look like.
Ford RWD platform:

Mustang with IRS.
Large sized sedan with IRS and option of ute (Call it a Crown Vic).
"SUV" Territory styled with IRS.


Have it so all are produced under the same principles used in Ford Aus with the Territory-Falcon-Fairlane. Have it so engines are interchangeable between the models. It doesn't need to be built over here.

Ford Australia: Development Platform.

Use Ford Aus as a RWD development platform for Ford US by using the Falcon as a testing mule (which is identical to the Crown Vic). Give Ford Aus the money to develop the Us Falcon and Territory variants with Ford US only making minor modifications for styling. Leave the Mustang in house for the US but use data from the Falcon to design it.

[Piotr]

Originally Posted by Serial_Fool

Bud Bud- If you think that the 3.5 Dura-crapo-tech was in anyway a world class engine you would have to be kidding yourself. Just because an engine is going to be deployed overseas doesnt make it a great one. The Inline has been kept for a few reasons:

1. Superior torque/power over the 3.5
2. The 3.5 inablility to fit in the Falcon's engine bay.
3. The changed Australian Dollar.
4. The uproar by Ford fans over the move (but I doubt this would have been a major factor like the other 3).

NO, The sole reason the inline 6 is being retained is the government grant making it cheaper to keep than to import.

The Aussie dollar has nothing to do with it

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Piotr

NO, The sole reason the inline 6 is being retained is the government grant making it cheaper to keep than to import.

The Aussie dollar has nothing to do with it

It has more to do with the engineering to make the motor fit.

Gover really needs to stop the pro Holden bias evident in all of his articles, Lutz could not even confirm that the G8 was a certain future model of Pontiac. He was quoted as saying that they are looking at 4-5 models and only need 2, the G8 being one of those models up for consideration.

I agree that Ford is going terrible at the moment, but so is everyone. I just wish everyone would realize that the Commodore is a badly engineered car, GM are on the verge of bankruptcy, Holden need to retrench 1000 workers to ensure production is equal to demand and Holden have over 10,000 cars in storage and are sending brand new cars to auction.

Dear Mr Gover, Holden are not the saviors of Australian manufacturing that you would love them to be. The sooner you realize this and write articles in a more neutral nature like a true JOURNALIST should, the more chance people will take your articles seriously. There is a reason John Mellor is a respected industry commentator, and you are a Holden fan boy writing opinion pieces posing as news articles.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/s...006301,00.html
The spin doctors are at it again....................

Lets look at the real facts.

GM have canned all development on the Zeta platform that Holden spent millions of dollars on creating, under the premise that a whole range of GM vehicles were going to be built off it, such as an Impala, a new Buick etc. The only model that made production was the Camaro. Now Holden have spent all this money on a dead end platform that they have been left with the development costs on, with all the other models cancelled, and this is somehow good news. Is this some sort of joke?

This is really bad news for Holden as they can no longer develop a new platform, they will have to continue with the VE platform, at significantly reduced costs. And this is good news.

The Cadillac mentioned in the article is based on another platform, nothing to do with Zeta. How that has any relevance to the Commodore going global is just ridiculous. They have totally miss read the facts and changed them to suit. If anything the Commodore will be less of a global car as there's a good chance Pontiac will no longer sell the G8.

I wonder how much Holden paid Paul Gover to write this?

This is just poor journalism. Start sending emails to Gover telling him he has got it all wrong.

[mrbaxr6t]

An older friend I know (biggest ford nut ever) kept a newspaper article from the 80's the heading "How can we aFORD to continue" and it tells a tale of doom and gloom and the collapse of ford Australia, leaving us with Holden and japanese imports like Toyota and Nissan, they continued, flourished and survived for another 20 years contrary to this article. Yes times are bad but IMHO It will have to remain bad for at least 5 years or more to "kill" australian auto manufacturers, as much as I would like Holden to p off so they can import Chevrolet's - much better cars.

[XRtowcar]

I think the rear drive platforms will be reduced in mainstream models as a front driver can deliver better economy and cheaper manufacture costs.
Wonder if were the backwards ones still manufacturing rear drive and not embracing a front drive car for assembly and possible export to many more markets than possible with a rear driver.
Think Honda have better luck selling Accords than Holden has with G8's.
Don't think it worry 80% of the buying public anyway.
Still hate FWD cars though.