Are We Being Too Harsh And Critial Of Ford Australia

[mik]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Love how some members are saying Holden are "over advertising" and their slogan of they go better when they don't.

Those members need to look at how that company has gone. yes, they went through the same process, Ford are currently going through (making people redundant and shift cutting), but it's obvious their advertising campaign is having some sort of impact. They've posted a profit and employed another 100 odd people. So that's not bad for a company that's annoying the beejesus out of you and surposedly lying about their product.

I think what Ford need to do, is produce a small car, in Australia. Not import one, like they are currently doing. They might even need a more aggressive advertising campaign.

Hopefully things pan out in the future. The car manufacturing industry needs it in this country

not all mate , the point i was trying to make , and probably did it poorly, was that ford australia`s has under advertised falcon imo and they deserve critisism in this area, holden just is out there advertising all the time day after day even to the point of stretching the truth imo, i certainly don`t believe a holden goes any better than a ford , wether you do or not is up to you, its my belief that the jingles from holden though annoying are also a sign that people know inside out, upside down, backwards who and what are selling the goods, and i did comend the other car companies for great marketing, holden was included in that even though i did`nt name them(my bad).

[Ford17]

FA have done exactly what was needed to be done.

They have worked out that large RWD sedans are now a boutique market.
Sure their marketing needs to re-jigged to sell this point (a la BMW), and the fuel efficiency aspect as well.

But with current volumes, they've realigned their manufacturing to suit. Simple and effective. Basic economics even.

Their opposition, on the other hand, by selling Commodores at below cost, are putting themselves on a path to failure, something of which the Obama Government is not going to bail them out on.

Ford = smart

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by mik

not all mate , the point i was trying to make , and probably did it poorly, was that ford australia`s has under advertised falcon imo and they deserve critisism in this area, holden just is out there advertising all the time day after day even to the point of stretching the truth imo, i certainly don`t believe a holden goes any better than a ford , wether you do or not is up to you, its my belief that the jingles from holden though annoying are also a sign that people know inside out, upside down, backwards who and what are selling the goods, and i did comend the other car companies for great marketing, holden was included in that even though i did`nt name them(my bad).

I don't know if any of you have seen the fiesta ad's from the UK, they are atrocious, to the point where a 1 minute ad looks up until 40 seconds in, like an ad for a television...

The music is melodic, but not something that jumps out at you.

The FPV ad, whilst good, uses Alan Moffatt - to be honest, using a Canadian to sell a product designed for an Australian market - not so clever. Sure, he was a fantastic racer, but I pay close attention to the word 'was'. And using him will sell to a specific demographic - you get a current Ford racer to back these products, things will go up...it is almost a guarantee.

Holden used Skaife, Craig Lowndes, current racers for their time. They use dynamic music that appeals to a larger demographic and they sell by explaining their product - they engage an audience.

The RTV ad, 'flooded it mate?' was a good example of how Ford's advertising should be...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlAEbqIkoUY&NR=1

You want advertising that gives you goosebumps, not giggles.

Imagine if you will, the intro to Love the Beast - Eric Bana, the conversion from his own personal vehicle, switch into the new FPV...cruising through the Tasmanian countryside. The words...'when I was a kid...' - something that appeals to a broader demographic, that captures the audience and engages them, not an ad with 'fingers all over the place'...

These are the kind of ad's Ford needs - and a customer base to actually support them, because whilst in theory it's good to say the supporters have nothing to do with it...without your support...there is Falcon no more.

[burnz]

Are We Being Too Harsh And Critial
no; because a lot of you blokes are wearing your heart's on your sleeves,
and things appear not in good shape..appearances can be deceiveing.

i dont hear a fat lady singing

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

They can't. The market is covered by every other product in Ford's portfolio. And there are cheaper places to make it too.

Ford needs to focus on it's core products. And at a time when fuel is so expensive, they need to be pushing alternatives hard. This also has the benefit of being like nothing else Ford has anywhere else. So if it succeeds... so will Ford's local manufacturing.

Fair enough cars are cheaper to make overseas, but Holden started by importing the Cruise, now they're making it here. So it is achieveable, as proven by Holden. And to prove it even more, Holden employed another 100+ staff, just to ramp up production of this car and still turned a profit.

I really do think Ford should be taking a leaf out of Holdens book, with this and marketing. I also know, alot of people on this forum may see my posting as "Holden" sprouting and may not like it, but at the end of the day Holden has succeeded turing their business round, surely Ford could do the same.

One other area that would be worth trying, is the export market. Holden are doing it fairly successfully, yet Ford Austraila are just keeping the Falcon as an Aussie specific car. Perhaps that's another area they could look at

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

One other area that would be worth trying, is the export market. Holden are doing it fairly successfully, yet Ford Austraila are just keeping the Falcon as an Aussie specific car. Perhaps that's another area they could look at

What are Holden exporting these days? Thats a serious question too I'm not having a go. Ford Aus cant really export unless given the go ahead from Ford US.

Holden has turned around their fortunes for now but they've barely had to update the Commodore in 5 years. So no major money has been spent on new models. Cruze was mostly paid for by the Government if I recall. And as for assembling it here I remember even the Holden boss at the time said they wouldnt make much money from it.

[bigsta]

Although Ford Has great ideas their execution is poor at best, i have to say that although i believe my territory to be best in class and drives better than any other SUV this side of 6 figures especially the main competition from toyota and holden, the features that even the top of line models lack that entry level commodores have and the build quality and reliability is what would put alot of people off, i myself have had more probs with my territory than my last 3 commodores combined all in the first 6 months too.

Still its a great car though and does leave a smile on my dial.

The other big reason ford oz is not doing the best is its unwillingness to have a LHD program the falcon has come a long way in the last 5 years and ford US dont have a RWD platform anymore the falcon is perfect and just needs a good pitch to the yanks.

Crown vic is all but dead but they loved that car over there and the falcon is a rolls royce when compared to that 70s POS, goverment and taxis in the US are turning to GM now that the crown vic is being discontinued.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

What are Holden exporting these days? Thats a serious question too I'm not having a go. Ford Aus cant really export unless given the go ahead from Ford US.

Holden has turned around their fortunes for now but they've barely had to update the Commodore in 5 years. So no major money has been spent on new models. Cruze was mostly paid for by the Government if I recall. And as for assembling it here I remember even the Holden boss at the time said they wouldnt make much money from it.

most money come's from the sidi v6 exports...
canada, usa, brazil, uk, lebanon, saudi arabia, bahrain, quatar, uae, oman, south africa,
south korea, thailand, malaysia, singapor, fiji, new zealand, west germany and china..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

most money come's from the sidi v6 exports...
canada, usa, brazil, uk, lebanon, saudi arabia, bahrain, quatar, uae, oman, south africa,
south korea, thailand, malaysia, singapor, fiji, new zealand, west germany and china..

I'm curious,
Why would Holden export engines back to Canada and USA when GM has it's own
V6 SIDI plants at St Catharines in Canada and Flint Engine South in Michigan?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

I'm curious,
Why would Holden export engines back to Canada and USA when GM has it's own
V6 SIDI plants at St Catharines in Canada and Flint Engine South in Michigan?

i've often wondered myself, the source was holden export division..

i know flint is crate LSX export, St Catharines does make the v6..
according to holden the 2.8turbo v6 they export was for buick as well as saab.

[2011G6E]

I think Ford and Holden, with the Falcon and Commodore respectively, both suffer from the same problem.
Their thinking is based on the false premise that they are still "the only game in town" for large sedans. Nowadays, people aren't as leery of front wheel drive anymore...certainly not as much as they used to be in the eighties say, and there are a lot of alternatives for people who just want a nice, reliable, comfortable family car...which is the majority of buyers. Very very few buyers go into the delaership wanting dazzling chassis dynamics and the ability to get the tail out.

Ford and Holden have sharp pricing, but it could be better when you see the standard equipment levels of the opposition, and unless they face the reality that there is a big bad world out there and they no longer have a captive audience, they'll just keep stumbling along until head office in the USA notices and decides to just close the parts of the business which aren't doing as well as they'd like. There's been quite a lot of talk over the last twenty years of the closure of local manufacturing of Ford and Holden (GM), and sometimes I honestly don't know how they haven't both recieved the tap on the shoulder from thier Yank masters by now.

[DanielXR8]

A simple search of these forums will find issues with build quality, the dealer network, warranty and customer service. Many are repeat problems going on year after year. Many Ford owners for life have now sworn off the product, so it is no surprise many punters with no particular allegiance have too.

All these issues and yes the negative press (often deserved), have an accumulative effect and eventually you hit a tipping point. Falcon is now struggling because of that and my guess is Territory will never reach the sales figures it once had and might even decline back to something similar to last years volumes once the early adopters have got their cars. Diesel or not.

Ford make very good cars, but as has been already said, they just dont get what they do wrong and what the long term effect is it causes. Some of it is likely money, where they ship a dodgy component, but have no money to fix the fault or recall the cars, so they pretend its just you the consumer who has a problem, but in others its just a corporate attitude from another era that still lingers at Ford. In many ways Ford Australia is still stuck in the 1970's.

This isn't a forums fault it is Ford Australia Management who haven't changed and no I don't think we as a group are harsh when we say that basically we are fed up with them. They aren't doing their job after all. You cant put a car company into the mess Ford Australia is in if you were.

The ones I feel sorry for are those who go to work every day and do what they are told and then pay the price with their livelihood when someone has to pay for mistakes of their supervisors.

[z80]

No,

Ford deserves all the criticism it gets for promoting their products as a performance commodity instead of a sustainable, economic, mass produced car.

Through clever marketting,Holden, who have an inferior product, have managed to promote their cars as being green and economical with the SIDI and AFM nonsense.

Not so with Ford...the perception is Kw,FPV,V8, big car

To a prospective buyer...turbo V6 or V8 performance=lots a fuel

The models that are selling the best are...surprise,surprise...the small engined, economical front wheel drive vehicles.

Justification for pursuing the Falcon RWD 4 litre platform?
God help us if Ford management ever believes that it's Falcon can compete internationally in the rear wheel drive large car platform with BMW.Audi or Mercedes......just not gunna happen.

If I was seeking a career in the automotive industry in Australia my first phone call would be to Toyota.


Time to ditch the Falcon and move on...before it's too late.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

i've often wondered myself, the source was holden export division..

i know flint is crate LSX export, St Catharines does make the v6..
according to holden the 2.8turbo v6 they export was for buick as well as saab.

Not Buick USA but probably Buick China .
It was used in Cadillac SRX (glorified Captiva/Equinox) but due to engine reliability problems,
they are dropping the 2.8 turbo and going with 3.6 SIDI, a good move as big brother is more reliable.
Not sure what Saab is taking atm, there a plan for GM to switch to 3.0 V6 turbo , plans are sketchy.

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not sure what Saab is taking atm, there a plan for GM to switch to 3.0 V6 turbo , plans are sketchy.

My prediction - SAAB will close its doors by the end of the year.....but back to the topic on hand.

I don't believe we are being too harsh - visit a general car forum on a site like caradvice and the general sense you get is that Ford is just weeks away from shutting up shop in this country - the amount of brand damage being done to Ford in Australia can not be underestimated - and yet Ford Aus sit on their hands and do nothing.

An announcement proclaiming Ford has a big future in Australia is needed now! (wether or not local production is eventually canned.)

[In Focus]

Interesting question. Are we too harsh? I think both sides - the ones who knock Ford, and the ones who defend it - really want the same thing: for Ford Australia to be the best car maker it can be.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by In Focus

Interesting question. Are we too harsh? I think both sides - the ones who knock Ford, and the ones who defend it - really want the same thing: for Ford Australia to be the best car maker it can be.

Correct. Any criticisms I level at Ford is because I care about them and want them to be around in Australia as a manufacturer.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

What are Holden exporting these days? Thats a serious question too I'm not having a go. Ford Aus cant really export unless given the go ahead from Ford US.

Holden has turned around their fortunes for now but they've barely had to update the Commodore in 5 years. So no major money has been spent on new models. Cruze was mostly paid for by the Government if I recall. And as for assembling it here I remember even the Holden boss at the time said they wouldnt make much money from it.

No offense taken what so ever. The Commodore is being exported and has been for years now. Recently Holden just picked up a contract to supply cop cars to the US.

The Cruise, even though it might only make a few bucks per car, a few bucks made is better than a few bucks lost wouldn't you say.

If Ford Aust can't export unless given the green light from Ford US, then maybe that's an area Ford Aust needs to look at, to help the local production and more importantly, local jobs.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

A simple search of these forums will find issues with build quality, the dealer network, warranty and customer service. Many are repeat problems going on year after year. Many Ford owners for life have now sworn off the product, so it is no surprise many punters with no particular allegiance have too.

All these issues and yes the negative press (often deserved), have an accumulative effect and eventually you hit a tipping point. Falcon is now struggling because of that and my guess is Territory will never reach the sales figures it once had and might even decline back to something similar to last years volumes once the early adopters have got their cars. Diesel or not.

Ford make very good cars, but as has been already said, they just dont get what they do wrong and what the long term effect is it causes. Some of it is likely money, where they ship a dodgy component, but have no money to fix the fault or recall the cars, so they pretend its just you the consumer who has a problem, but in others its just a corporate attitude from another era that still lingers at Ford. In many ways Ford Australia is still stuck in the 1970's.

This isn't a forums fault it is Ford Australia Management who haven't changed and no I don't think we as a group are harsh when we say that basically we are fed up with them. They aren't doing their job after all. You cant put a car company into the mess Ford Australia is in if you were.

The ones I feel sorry for are those who go to work every day and do what they are told and then pay the price with their livelihood when someone has to pay for mistakes of their supervisors.

No differnt from what holden has done ...piston slap v8 anyone amongst other problems.

[stang65]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

No offense taken what so ever. The Commodore is being exported and has been for years now. Recently Holden just picked up a contract to supply cop cars to the US.

The Cruise, even though it might only make a few bucks per car, a few bucks made is better than a few bucks lost wouldn't you say.

If Ford Aust can't export unless given the green light from Ford US, then maybe that's an area Ford Aust needs to look at, to help the local production and more importantly, local jobs.

Cop cars to the U.S at most likely a loss and if they get any orders and not a couple hundred either. Just Holden spin.

I THINK the reason holden hasn`t lost market share and are still selling is because there followers put up with their crap cars and make excuses when they break down.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by stang65

No differnt from what holden has done ...piston slap v8 anyone amongst other problems.

Yes and no. Holden usually move on from those things pretty quick. Ford not so. Although to be fair to this discussion, Holden lost some long term buyers over that too.

Diff problems in the performance cars was an issue for the entire B series cycle. Rust in Territory tailgates went for years. Rust in Falcon is still ongoing. There is a difference. All these things can be fixed, but either because of money, lack of interest, no leadership at Ford or whatever, they are allowed to go on to the point people give up on the brand.

For example the ball joint issue with Territory wouldn't have snuck up on Ford. They would have known they had a problem and choose to do nothing proactive to sort it out. Leaving their customers hanging out to dry. Then the media got a hold of it and they were screwed and Territorys name was damaged. Reluctantly and with the bare minimum they felt they could get away with, they sort of addressed it and many punters could see that. The whole mess was preventable from the start if Ford had the right culture in its management.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You know, you're right.
What i really miss in Aussie motoring journalism is the IMPARTIALITY that used to be there,
if a car had good and bad points, there was even handed praise and criticism.

Today, you don't know whether you're seeing informertials gussied up as reports or worse,
complete hatchet jobs on a non-aligned manufacturer's products if they don't pass over the green....

Depends where you go. But it seems that even one bad report against many good, can still tip the balance of choosing something else. Which is a shame. But that's what we can now expect from our sensationalist media. exaggerating or omitting certain things that don't make it the story that will get the most hits.

Originally Posted by jpd80

What about RHD Mondeo?
FoA obviously has supply difficulties from Genk due to unique Aussie wiring regs
so why not get them to supply us with all the parts and have them assembled here.
I could see that as a very handy vehicle for Ford Australia and perfect as a green marketing tool.

I really hope that Territory kicks goals and EcoLPI really perks up Falcon sales,
Falcon is such a great vehicle it deserves a chance to morph into a more efficient form.
The Ecoboost Falcon won't be anywhere near as problematic to sell as a V8
and at least Ford can spruke the great fuel economy and potential fleet sales...

Nah. There will always be somewhere else that it can be built... and it will work out cheaper.

FoA really need to work on diversifying their core products again.... but most importantly. Make them work.

EcoLPi should be available in the territory as well I believe.

[jpd80]

We need to separate what Holden does in the market place from what Ford does,
both now clearly have entirely different strategies and business plans that suit
their own local set ups. Holden's strategy is to go for volume with it's two shift plant
while Ford aims for a much smaller but very efficiently run single shift plant.

Who's to say that one is right or wrong as determined by the amount of product made?
The fact that Ford Australia still remains profitable even with low production levels
says that they were right not to pursue exports to USA /Middle East right before
the Global Financial Crisis, they could have suffered far greater losses than Holden...

As for local marketing, I like the direction of the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo advertisement,
do the same thing with Territory, Falcon and Ute, get all of them in front of buyers
all that's needed is to reconnect with a few well thought out and well positioned ads...


If petrol prices keep climbing for the rest of the year, I think it will make the perfect climate for
launching the Ecoboost I-4 Falcon. we'll get a glimpse of this engine soon in lower performance
guise in the Ecoboost Mondeo but I think we can gauge the performance relative to the two cars....

It will be interesting to see Holden and Toyota's responses to all of the new fuel efficient Fords
all the way from Fiesta to SZ Territory.....I think Ford's competition will really struggle to keep up
with all the huge changes Ford is making, there really are quite a lot when you look at them,
just about every vehicle will be fresh by the end of the year and boasting good economy.

Maybe we will all be singing a different tune in the next 6-9 months.....

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by jpd80

We need to separate what Holden does in the market place from what Ford does,
both now clearly have entirely different strategies and business plans that suit
their own local set ups. Holden's strategy is to go for volume with it's two shift plant
while Ford aims for a much smaller but very efficiently run single shift plant.

Who's to say that one is right or wrong as determined by the amount of product made?
The fact that Ford Australia still remains profitable even with low production levels
says that they were right not to pursue exports to USA /Middle East right before
the Global Financial Crisis, they could have suffered far greater losses than Holden...

As for local marketing, I like the direction of the Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo advertisement,
do the same thing with Territory, Falcon and Ute, get all of them in front of buyers
all that's needed is to reconnect with a few well thought out and well positioned ads...


If petrol prices keep climbing for the rest of the year, I think it will make the perfect climate for
launching the Ecoboost I-4 Falcon. we'll get a glimpse of this engine soon in lower performance
guise in the Ecoboost Mondeo but I think we can gauge the performance relative to the two cars....

It will be interesting to see Holden and Toyota's responses to all of the new fuel efficient Fords
all the way from Fiesta to SZ Territory.....I think Ford's competition will really struggle to keep up
with all the huge changes Ford is making, there really are quite a lot when you look at them,
just about every vehicle will be fresh by the end of the year and boasting good economy.

Maybe we will all be singing a different tune in the next 6-9 months.....

It stands to reason that this could very well be the case. I saw a Forbes investment video with William Ford Jnr. He was discussing where Ford US was going - and made the suggestion that Ford won't be just cars and trucks - they will be a movement company...perhaps this is the way Aus is headed as well??

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by The G6ET Spot

Makes the decision for them not to manufacture the Focus here more questionable

Its been mentioned here a number of times, Ford could not make a profit on Focus if they made it here. After crunching the numbers they figured the only way to could make it price competitive was to have to strip all the equipment out of it, which would then have ensured it would have been slaughtered in the market place by better equipped rivals.

Toyota figured out they could not make a profit on a locally made Corolla either.

Beats me how Holden think they can make the Cruze profitably, especially considering the new Cruze sells for the same price as the Korean one did. Either they don't make a cent on it or they plan on jacking the price up on it later once it has been one sale for a while.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its been mentioned here a number of times, Ford could not make a profit on Focus if they made it here. After crunching the numbers they figured the only way to could make it price competitive was to have to strip all the equipment out of it, which would then have ensured it would have been slaughtered in the market place by better equipped rivals.

Toyota figured out they could not make a profit on a locally made Corolla either.

Beats me how Holden think they can make the Cruze profitably, especially considering the new Cruze sells for the same price as the Korean one did. Either they don't make a cent on it or they plan on jacking the price up on it later once it has been one sale for a while.

Or the fact that all its technology / parts come from Korea, where as Ford sources alot of the stuff in Focus from Europe. Makes a big difference. I am dissapointed they couldn't build something like Ranger here along side Territory and Falcon.

[Bossxr8]

Higher labour prices and all the workplace safety, environmental costs etc, plus the shipping costs to get parts from Korea to here all would make the Cruze more expensive to make here, plus probably a lot lower build numbers.

That would be enough to wipe out most if not all of the profit margins.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Toyota figured out they could not make a profit on a locally made Corolla either.

Corolla doesnt fit on the Toyota Modular Platform assembly line in Altona. To build Corolla here in Australia they would have to open another assembly line which would be very very expensive or impossible with the current factory layout. Cruze is being built on the old Vectra assembly line.


Although Kluger could be built in Altona, Im suprised they dont do it. Japan production ends in 2012 but maybe the US will simply take over RHD production.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Its been mentioned here a number of times, Ford could not make a profit on Focus if they made it here. After crunching the numbers they figured the only way to could make it price competitive was to have to strip all the equipment out of it, which would then have ensured it would have been slaughtered in the market place by better equipped rivals.

I don't buy it, that's just the story put out to kill off any argument, Ford would never
have bid for the Focus contract in the first place if they couldn't make money on it.
This is the company that vetoed exports that were unprofitable then signing up
for an unprofitable locally produced small car? None of it seems to gel does it?

The notion that FoA would have to sell strippers to make money is an utter ferfey,
the bulk of vehicles sold are not LX they are Zetec and Titanium, and on top of that
I bet that you'll find that most Cruzes sold are mid and high series too and profitable...

What does stick is Mulally's edict to maximize profit of every vehicle sold
and in that respect, adding production to Thailand is hard to beat, you
could almost bet that the profit per car difference between there and
Broadmeadows probably paid for most of the expansion anyway....

To add fuel to the Fire, Bill Osbourne also agreed with the Focus plan
and was in fact looking to add Mondeo production as well.....

[stang65]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Yes and no. Holden usually move on from those things pretty quick. Ford not so. Although to be fair to this discussion, Holden lost some long term buyers over that too.

Diff problems in the performance cars was an issue for the entire B series cycle. Rust in Territory tailgates went for years. Rust in Falcon is still ongoing. There is a difference. All these things can be fixed, but either because of money, lack of interest, no leadership at Ford or whatever, they are allowed to go on to the point people give up on the brand.

For example the ball joint issue with Territory wouldn't have snuck up on Ford. They would have known they had a problem and choose to do nothing proactive to sort it out. Leaving their customers hanging out to dry. Then the media got a hold of it and they were screwed and Territorys name was damaged. Reluctantly and with the bare minimum they felt they could get away with, they sort of addressed it and many punters could see that. The whole mess was preventable from the start if Ford had the right culture in its management.

Got a BA XR6 turbo no diff clunk, Territory rust in tailgate a little surface rust under rubber done by dealer no issuses. As i said it seems Holden owners are more forgiving. Mate has got a second hand VY calais out of warranty the distance to empty tells him he has got a 1/3 of a tank of petrol when he has a full tank. but he stilll holden true. He doesn`t blame Holden ewven though he got new firmware on the ECU didn`t fix it, was told it could be a bent float in the fuel tank common problem on VY`S.