3L - 195kw, 620nm, 6.1L/100km - Build a bloody Turbo Diesel Falcon already!

[Big Bird 17]

Plenty of non 4wd diesels on the road.Mondeo,focus,hyundai,golf and peugeot.

[SteveJH]

Almost half the mondeo's on carsales are diesel. 322/725
BMW: 1270/7561....now lets go 2005-present....1228/4129
Audi: 663/3508...2005-present...657/2628

Yup, diesels definately arent increasing in popularity.....

[spvd02]

Considering the alternative is a 2.3L n/a petrol, there's no surprises there. If there were as many ECOboost style engines available as turbo diesels, it'd be interesting to see how diesel would fare then.

[Buntz]

I think that Ford need to start toying with some premium price options... like an 8 speed gear box.

If people will pay more to use less... then they could sell a few of those.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by spvd02

Considering the alternative is a 2.3L n/a petrol, there's no surprises there. If there were as many ECOboost style engines available as turbo diesels, it'd be interesting to see how diesel would fare then.

Now that is an interesting point, the reason Ford NA is going for Ecoboost engines in cars and light trucks ahead
of diesels is because of their tight NOX emission limits which requires expensive exhaust after treatment to comply.
Adding that to the diesel premium makes the equation unworkable and turbo DI Petrol engines far easier to work with.

It will be interesting to see what happens with European diesels when they have to meet Euro 6 in a few years,
many are predicting that manufacturers will hit an economic wall as expensive Urea after treatment adds
extra cost to engines and negates any advantage they had with running costs over DI turbo petrol engines.

[2011G6E]

It should have existed long ago, absolutely no excuse. development money being poured into V8's should have been diverted into a diesel program.

There are of course people who whinge on about "but they need a V8 in the lineup!!!", and stuff about people "towing big boats and horse floats".
I would lay money on the fact that 90% of people who say Ford needs V8's have never and will never own one...they just like the idea of a V8 existing somewhere.
I would also like to know the last time anyone saw, say, a new GT or FPV towing that massive horse float or big boat. People who tow big heavy trailers buy a four wheel drive.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Almost half the mondeo's on carsales are diesel. 322/725
BMW: 1270/7561....now lets go 2005-present....1228/4129
Audi: 663/3508...2005-present...657/2628

Yup, diesels definately arent increasing in popularity.....

Every single car on carsales has one thing in common......

THEY HAVE NOT BEEN SOLD.....

[jpd80]

When human beings are lead by their emotions, they can make strange choices.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep diesels are a huge success in Australia.

Other than the 4WD heroes just how many diesel cars do you ACTUALLY see on the road?

After all with every brand selling them and they being the true messiah they should be everywhere.........must be using stealth mode.

In the real world the cost of your car is (initial purchase + fuel + maintenance + admin costs - resale) / km covered.

So if your car costs more and is more expensive to maintain and you do not do squillions of kilometres (which very few here actually do) then owning a diesel is MORE EXPENSIVE than owning a similar petrol, if it were not the fleets would be full of them......

I'd say they are a success in Australia, considering no locally manufacturered large passenger vehicle is available with a diesel engine. They're hedging their bets on flex fuel and small capacity forced induction engines. Turboed petrol engines have a larger stigma attached to them than noisy, rattle, smokey diesel engines.

I'd be quite happy owning a TDI V12 Quattro.

[rag top]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep diesels are a huge success in Australia.

Other than the 4WD heroes just how many diesel cars do you ACTUALLY see on the road?

Quite a few on the road here. Most are not recognisable from their petrol stable mates.

[banarcus]

What is the point of releasing a diesel Falcon when the Mondeo diesel is already here? Nearly the same dimensions as the Falcon, more tech than the Falcon. Ford Aust. could build it here and slap Falcon badges on it...

[Mitch89]

Originally Posted by banarcus

What is the point of releasing a diesel Falcon when the Mondeo diesel is already here? Nearly the same dimensions as the Falcon, more tech than the Falcon. Ford Aust. could build it here and slap Falcon badges on it...

Exactly, I think most people would be more than happy with a Mondeo instead of a Falcon, even in petrol spec. If you're looking at a diesel family sedan, I doubt the FWD vs RWD matters too much to you.

Having driven some of the Euro diesels, they are very impressive. Not noisy, torque delivery is brilliant, and the economy is great. Kia's new diesel is fantastic, they deserve to sell a lot of them. The torque makes them much better to drive than the petrol models too.

[XWGT]

Originally Posted by MY270

Exactly, I think most people would be more than happy with a Mondeo instead of a Falcon, even in petrol spec. If you're looking at a diesel family sedan, I doubt the FWD vs RWD matters too much to you.

.

Said it before and will say it again. Drove a diesel Mondeo all over Europe, 2 adults, baby seat, 5 suitcases plus various other bags of crap and the Mondeo ate it for breakfast. Cruise at 130kph, 1000 klms to a tank, really well appointed, all little turbo lag in first gear low rpm but then off like a rocket. DAMN GOOD CAR.

Thats why Ford Aus do not need to invest in a diesel Falcon. Because as I have said previously, it already exists, its engineering is already paid for, and it works.

Ford Aus should therefore be concentrating their deveolpment efforts and budget on LPG and leaving diesel as it stands in the product mix.

I love the Ford brand and have all my life. But if they dont get this right, the Aussie falcon is dead. It makes no global sense, and it has strong competitors within its own brand. The carbon tax will come with a lot of stings attached that dictate non green cars will be penalised and that means if its not LPG, its going to be penalised. Thats another kick the Falcon just cant take.

So listen up Ford. Stop dicking aound and get a great LPG powered Falcon on the road asap. Oh wait, you already have. Good work. Now forget diesel and market the **** off the thing!

[Yellow_Festiva]

Didn't someone a few weeks ago post that diesel has just overtaken petrol as the most popular fuel being sold?

I personally do think that Falcon could have benefited from a diesel.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Didn't someone a few weeks ago post that diesel has just overtaken petrol as the most popular fuel being sold?

I personally do think that Falcon could have benefited from a diesel.

Take off the large trucks and 4WD heroes.

I work with quite a number of car dealers and outside the 4WDs diesels are better than hybrids but not by all that much.

Everyone seems to fixate on the price of fuel and usage.

A few years ago I did the sums on the difference between a diesel landcruiser and petrol landcruiser while sitting at a Toyota dealer waiting for some server updates to finish.

It worked out at the time that it would have taken 450,000km before the difference in the cost of fuel squared up the cost of the vehicles and that was not taking into account the horrendously expensive diesel services.

When I asked the sales manager why anyone bought diesel he replied the same reason people by stripes on the cars (I was in my GT-P at the time), because it makes them feel good.....

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by flappist

Take off the large trucks and 4WD heroes.

I work with quite a number of car dealers and outside the 4WDs diesels are better than hybrids but not by all that much.

Everyone seems to fixate on the price of fuel and usage.

A few years ago I did the sums on the difference between a diesel landcruiser and petrol landcruiser while sitting at a Toyota dealer waiting for some server updates to finish.

It worked out at the time that it would have taken 450,000km before the difference in the cost of fuel squared up the cost of the vehicles and that was not taking into account the horrendously expensive diesel services.

When I asked the sales manager why anyone bought diesel he replied the same reason people by stripes on the cars (I was in my GT-P at the time), because it makes them feel good.....

I don't really like you. But you're also in I.T. (it would seem) and you have a point.

Diesels sell because of the perceived benefits. But they are costly to service, mostly because they almost all include turbos.

LPG is Ford's answer. And to spearhead that strike, I think adding an NA LPG 4 cyl donk along side the EcoBoost will make Falcon more attractive.

[Supercharged]

[QUOTE=flappist]
A few years ago I did the sums on the difference between a diesel landcruiser and petrol landcruiser while sitting at a Toyota dealer waiting for some server updates to finish.

It worked out at the time that it would have taken 450,000km before the difference in the cost of fuel squared up the cost of the vehicles and that was not taking into account the horrendously expensive diesel services.
QUOTE]

Very true. Look at what happened 3 years ago with the price of petrol getting to about $1.70 per litre, heaps of people traded in their larger vehicles for smaller and cheaper to run cars. They got lower trade in values but the reality is they will take years of running to break even but each time they purchased fuel it made them feed better but forgetting about the car re-payments being way higher. Also with the above quote the increased service and repair costs of diesel powered vehicles.

[Franco Cozzo]

Maybe people like the way diesel drives?

I know I prefer my TDCI Focus over the NA 2L 4 cylinder petrol models.

[spvd02]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Maybe people like the way diesel drives?

I know I prefer my TDCI Focus over the NA 2L 4 cylinder petrol models.

I would also prefer the TDCI in your case. It's a much stronger engine. Focus ECOboost on the other hand...

[SumoDog68]

Diesel are more efficient engine design when compared to spark ignition engine. When force fed they produce excellent torque and combine well with automatic transmission . Automatics are tranny of choice in Oz.
Falcon with a decent 6cyl diesel would expand Falcon customer base. Even Taxi industry would buy them.

[Kryton]

V8's make very little sense too but funny how some of those against a Diesel have a V8 parked in their drive way.
Pretty simple - dont like Diesel - dont buy it nor whinge about the costs of keeping one.

[vztrt]

I could see a Diesel Falcon ute more popular then the sedan. Problem is the cost to get the V6 (cause it would be the one from the Terri) into the sedan will cost big. I guess if they had have got the duratec petrol in it would be more cost effective.

But Ford has come out and said that they don't see that big of a market for the sedan as opposed to the SUV market which diesel sales make up 50% of the market.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by vztrt

I could see a Diesel Falcon ute more popular then the sedan.

This.

LPG is the way for a Falcon with low running costs and we're yet to sample the Ecoboost version so we don't know. But I would like to think Ford could at least have a bet either way with a diesel Falcon so they have the product depth to meet market needs/desires - which can change quite rapidly these days.

[kpcart]

Would i be right in saying that most people that really dislike diesel are the people that call themselves performance car enthusiasts?
This is what is to be disliked about diesel:
a diesel car is slower compared to the petrol equivalent, but the gap isnt as large as it used to be and infact many diesels can now be considered fast. also diesels dont sound as nice to car enthusiasts and often sound like a truck. but that is also changing with technological improvement, there are very quiet diesels available now, and with alloy technology and higher rev limits that keep coming, some of the newer diesels actually sound quite nice to people who like mechanical noise. also there is the feel of throttle control, many turbo diesels dont provide good feedback to the driver through the right foot, their is a feeling of lag and electronic control and you dont feel as direct with the throttle as a petrol car, but then again this also applies to some turbo-petrol cars.

For drivers who drive sedately on public roads (the majority), the great torque is more desirable to most people not interested in racing their engines. modern diesels are leisurely, much like v8s were a few decades ago compared to there 4 and 6 cylinder counterparts.
Diesel is now also closing the performance gap, it can work well in sports cars, just look at the last 5 years in lemans motoracing where audi and peugeout Turbo Diesels have beaten every single petrol engined lemans car (at less then half the engine rpm).
What impresses me most about diesel is the technological advances of the engines in the past 20 years, the engine spec numbers suggest there has been much more advance in diesel engines then petrol engines. for that reason they are becoming desirable, they are actually seen as cutting edge technology by many people now.
in the last 30 years fords I6 has increased torque from about 300nm to about 400nm, and power from about 110kw to 195kw. while in the same time many car companies that offered diesels that made 45kw and 200nm now make 125kw and 400nm with the same capacity. AND offer better low end torque and better economy then petrol equivalents. (the I6 / TD comparison is just based on commuter cars, not things like XR6Turbo as most TD cars dont offer performance versions, but they might soon)

You must admit, a 2.2L kia making more torque and much better economy then the great Ford I6 is bloody impressive.

Another great thing Ford could do is make a small capacity I6 direct injection with turbo. Holden is going to build a 2.8 turbo v6 commodore with higher power and torque then the ford 4l and also much better fuel economy.

lets see how the direct injection turbo 4cyl falcon goes, i think they should have at least used a v6 direct injection turbo if they want to go down this route, they need to try to compete with holden not try to distance themselves from them.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by kpcart

What impresses me most about diesel is the technological advances of the engines in the past 20 years, the engine spec numbers suggest there has been much more advance in diesel engines then petrol engines. for that reason they are becoming desirable, they are actually seen as cutting edge technology by many people now.
in the last 30 years fords I6 has increased torque from about 300nm to about 400nm, and power from about 110kw to 195kw. while in the same time many car companies that offered diesels that made 45kw and 200nm now make 125kw and 400nm with the same capacity. AND offer better low end torque and better economy then petrol equivalents. (the I6 / TD comparison is just based on commuter cars, not things like XR6Turbo as most TD cars dont offer performance versions, but they might soon).

But the diesels have gained turbos so it is unfair not to use the petrol turbo as a comparison. Thus in its latest guise the petrol turbo makes 310kw, and as for more bottom end torque the latest six makes 565Nm of torque under 2000rpm and keeps it over a 3000rpm spread.... And easily gets 9 litres per 100km on the highway and 12.5 to 13.5 on combined cycle. And my last one as far as servicing goes cost me under $1200 over 3.5 years and 71,000km of ownership...

[smoo]

Originally Posted by mcnews

But the diesels have gained turbos so it is unfair not to use the petrol turbo as a comparison. Thus in its latest guise the petrol turbo makes 310kw, and as for more bottom end torque the latest six makes 565Nm of torque under 2000rpm and keeps it over a 3000rpm spread.... And easily gets 9 litres per 100km on the highway and 12.5 to 13.5 on combined cycle. And my last one as far as servicing goes cost me under $1200 over 3.5 years and 71,000km of ownership...

Fair call but if you want to compare apples to apples at least make it a 4.0TD, in which case the I6T wouldn't stand a chance on torque figures or fuel economy. We all know the TTG was(n't) a huge success especially with urban fuel figures nearing the 20s.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by smoo

Fair call but if you want to compare apples to apples at least make it a 4.0TD, in which case the I6T wouldn't stand a chance on torque figures or fuel economy. We all know the TTG was(n't) a huge success especially with urban fuel figures nearing the 20s.

Forget hypotheticals, just compare the 2.0 TDCI against the 2.0 Ecoboost,
both give 320 nm but the Ecoboost puts out 179 Kw to the diesel's 120 Kw.

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by smoo

Fair call but if you want to compare apples to apples at least make it a 4.0TD, in which case the I6T wouldn't stand a chance on torque figures or fuel economy. We all know the TTG was(n't) a huge success especially with urban fuel figures nearing the 20s.

TTG has 2003 era engine spec. The TTG with the new FG XR6T donk would have been a winner, and used less fuel than the N/A Territory I am willing to guess, would never need to spin over 2000rpm for great performance.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by mcnews

But the diesels have gained turbos so it is unfair not to use the petrol turbo as a comparison. Thus in its latest guise the petrol turbo makes 310kw, and as for more bottom end torque the latest six makes 565Nm of torque under 2000rpm and keeps it over a 3000rpm spread.... And easily gets 9 litres per 100km on the highway and 12.5 to 13.5 on combined cycle. And my last one as far as servicing goes cost me under $1200 over 3.5 years and 71,000km of ownership...

i know that, but i am talking about base model cars, not performance editions, the one you are talking about isnt even a ford anymore its an fpv badge. you can not get a falcon xt with turbo and 310kw, but you can get base model 4cyl turbo diesels with as much torque as a base falcon and half the engine capacity and nearly half the economy. the 12.5 to 13.5 combined cycle is very high compared to turbo diesels. your also lucky for your servicing cost.

[Fair302]

Funny read.

Diesel isn't for everyone, but should be offered as an option. Why Falcon diesel? Some people just want a Falcon. We have Mondeo diesel? Some people prefer a larger car with a larger engine, even diesel lovers. Diesel isn't worth the cost over petrol? Neither is the cost of owning a V8 or other high performance car in a country where you get treated as an axe murderer when you speed. They prob cost more to purchase, use more fuel, cost more in service and a diesel will last longer and return more resale. Plus any of the nay sayers ever driven a modern diesel passenger vehicle? Let alone a high performance one or dare I say a tuned TDI?

Yes diesel in Europe is cheaper but the cost of purchasing a diesel over petrol is much higher so are road cost.