Australia's tough new anti-terror laws

[bindi]

Originally Posted by XD-Machine

probably not only taking advantage of the situation but what if.......they created the situation!!!! What i mean by that is the goverment makes this "terrorism" thing up to create panic so they can start marshial law.

WARNING, RANT AHEAD!

Agreed. Panic is good... perhaps then we can start being treated by Adolf part 2. Nobody can say this can't happen again - it happens as I type to people we don't hear about. The "news" deems it unnewsworthy or unimportant.

Conspiracy theories abound in Australia. Our rights are being eroded every day and soon enough, we'll be left with nothing.

I understand that we don't want to have terrorists blow us up. Funnily enough, I don't want that either.

BUT do these laws guarantee that they're going to stop it? For example, the gun controversy. After Port Arthur guns were basically made illegal except for a few (which are used in restricted ways). What alot of the Average Joes don't understand is that the guns he used were ILLEGAL anyway, so whether these laws were in place before he rampaged or not he WOULD HAVE HAD ACCESS TO THE GUNS ANYWAY.

Yet Aussies swallowed it, hook, line and sinker. Yet people are still being shot and killed?!

So following that knee-jerk reaction and example of laws made that don't work, tell me EXACTLY how these laws are going to work?
:

Sorry for sounding a bit out there or a bit grumpy, it just bugs me. I'll shut up now :P

[smoo]

Originally Posted by NIGHTHAWK

I suppose it is good that the government is seen to be looking after our welfare but put yourself in a muslim shoes for 1 day and see how it feels to be on the other side of the fence.

I would prefer Australia cater to its own. If Muslims have issues with it, they can always move to a predominately Islam country where their culture will fit in.

[LTDHO]

I have two small points.

*Why are the muslim community being defensive? This law effects all Australians! It's like they take is personally, maybe they have a reason? I don't know, but the inocent don't get defencive.

*Unfortunally Australia have to do something, we have been named as a target and we have to prepare ourselves. I'm sure everyone has their ideas but not all can be implimented.

[bindi]

Originally Posted by smoo

I would prefer Australia cater to its own. If Muslims have issues with it, they can always move to a predominately Islam country where their culture will fit in.

Well with that kind of attitude from the Average Racist Australian, this thread is bound to be closed.

They have as much right as anyone else to the democratic freedoms we take for granted. If they choose to practice their religion here, that is their choice.

Oh, that's right, YOU must watch Today Tonight and believe every bit of racist drivel that punctuates their slanted views on religion.

Not helpful mate, not helpful at all.

Originally Posted by LTDHO

*Why are the muslim community being defensive? This law effects all Australians! It's like they take is personally, maybe they have a reason? I don't know, but the inocent don't get defencive.

Because they are instantly blamed! They take on the guilt of the radicals! And are tarred by the same brush...

People on here should know about this. Think of the continuous whinging of P platers being treated like hoons and law breakers just because they display a P sign on their cars.

Put yourself in that space, then see what it's like to be a Muslim Australian.

And I said I would shut up... meh, I'm too opinionated.

[NAK302]

so what is your answer to the problem?

it seems there are so many people bag the government when they try and do positives but these same people never come forward with a plausable answer. i'd be interested in hearing some alternatives, rather than the usual "we're being picked on" by the usual minorities.

[Black XR6]

I guess time will tell wether or not the laws work. Either terrorism will strike here someday or the new laws proposed will enable the terrorists to be caught and held without charge.

[NAK302]

the word racist gets bandied around far to often when people try and defend their own country. boring answer again.

[smoo]

Too right nak351

bindi - Islam is a FAITH not a RACE. There was no 'racism' (I hate the way that word is used, mostly by do gooders) in my statement. Of course, resorting to the 'racist' remark is always the easy way out. They can practise their religion here, but if it conflicts with our way of life, too bad, they can always bugger off Singapore or Indonesia if they don't feel welcome. No ones stopping them. I wouldn't go to Pakistan etc. and practise Christian traditions and try to enforce it on them. Wouldn't want to think what the outcome would be.

BTW I'm not religious, just using that as an example.

[bindi]

Originally Posted by smoo

bindi - Islam is a FAITH not a RACE...

I wouldn't go to Pakistan etc. and practise Christian traditions and try to enforce it on them. Wouldn't want to think what the outcome would be.

Are they trying to enforce their faith on us though?! I know the radicals are, hence the terrorism (for some odd reason they think it will convert us to their way of thinking!?).

But really, all Muslims want to do is practice their religion. Simple. We allow Christians to do it, yet we as a country vilify Muslims and blame them for the terrorism.

Doesn't anyone see that by getting in bed with Dubya and going to war in Iraq that JH and his government have brought it on us?

Whatever happened to peace and love? Why can't we just all live in harmony? Why do we think that one religion is better than the other, and that the God being worshipped is better than the one being worshipped by the other religions and that everyone SHOULD be worshipping the one they believe is the "best"?

What if there IS no God? What if all we have are ourselves?!

[NIGHTHAWK]

Remember what happened with the London bombings, the muslim community were targeted right away by a small section of people,that they were somehow involved.The muslim community then as a group went to the hospital to pay their respect and give their condolences to the wounded patients and were promptly turned away from the hospital.
I just feel that if any attacks happen here in australia the muslims will be the first to be targeted. Dont forget australia has a man named Terry Hicks being held for being a terroist. A terroist can be any colour or nationality.

[Sourbastard]

Calm down folks.

Essentially no I dont agree with the new laws. Its far too easy to bend them to ones will when one is empowered by a law to do things outside of the norm.

Before I go further Il'l make a comment about the nature of terrorism.

Terrorism by definition is designed to provoke lawmakers into these sorts of actions. Terrorist cells do not easily operate in "unfriendly" countries, and as a result their attacks are usually hamstrung from the beginning. 911 while dramatic, costly and designed to generate alot of panic(Which it accomplished), killed relatively few people. More people die every year as a result of car accidents then terrorist incidents(2752 people in 911 compared to 43,000 from car accidents in the US), but few people are as warey on the road as they may be about a middle eastern person on a train. Thats the other aspect of terrorism, it drives a wedge between "Us and them" on both sides, based on the actions of a radical minority.

Now when one looks at terrorist acts, they are far more numerous and tragic in "friendly countries" where the terrorists can rely on the people to hide them, fund them, supply them. This is why Iraq, Indonesia are high risk areas in regards to terrorist acts. Our new laws, have absolutely no impact there.

Personally I would rather see more funding driven into ASIO Human Intelligence assets. This equates to infiltration, development of resources inside the terrorist cells and then using Sigint to then confirm, this then allows you to act and zap the bad guys. Intelligence is the only method that can combat Terrorism. Even if you capture a terrorist, he is very unlikely to reveal anything of value even over 14 days in custody using normal means.

[Des]

What ever happened to that great Aussie ethic of sticking up for your mates? If your mate goes down you dig in and help. Simple as that. It's what has held us in high regard around the world for a very very long time (and built our great nation). Ask any veteran from the US or UK what they think of our Aussie veterans.
It goes beyond that also and is ingrained into our social life, ask any sports person why they put in so hard.
On another note as an ex-serviceman, I knew when I joined that I'd be asked to defend our beautiful home and those of our mates if required. That's the responsibility you take with the position. All roles in society have their risks/ responsibilties attached. If you want to live in a free society you'd better be prepared to defend it against those who would take it from you in a flash. JH knows this and has vowed to help out our mates, why we keep pandering to our "not-so-friendly so-called mates" is what gets me fired up.
To me it's simple, If you don't want to get slapped then you defend yourself, otherwise don't complain when you get slapped.

Gibbo....

[Des]

Originally Posted by bindi

Because they are instantly blamed! They take on the guilt of the radicals! And are tarred by the same brush...

People on here should know about this. Think of the continuous whinging of P platers being treated like hoons and law breakers just because they display a P sign on their cars.

Put yourself in that space, then see what it's like to be a Muslim Australian.

And I said I would shut up... meh, I'm too opinionated.

If you look like a fish and smell like a fish, you'll be called a fish! If stop holding yourself at arms length from the general society and join that society as a benificial member, you'll stop being called a fish. I've several different races and faiths working for me and no-one cares who's who because we're all working towards a common goal.
There's a lesson in that for all of us to heed....

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Des

What ever happened to that great Aussie ethic of sticking up for your mates? If your mate goes down you dig in and help. Simple as that. It's what has held us in high regard around the world for a very very long time (and built our great nation). Ask any veteran from the US or UK what they think of our Aussie veterans.
It goes beyond that also and is ingrained into our social life, ask any sports person why they put in so hard.
On another note as an ex-serviceman, I knew when I joined that I'd be asked to defend our beautiful home and those of our mates if required. That's the responsibility you take with the position. All roles in society have their risks/ responsibilties attached. If you want to live in a free society you'd better be prepared to defend it against those who would take it from you in a flash. JH knows this and has vowed to help out our mates, why we keep pandering to our "not-so-friendly so-called mates".
To me it's simple, If you don't want to get slapped then you defend yourself, otherwise don't complain when you get slapped.

Gibbo....

What the hell are you on about.

[Des]

Originally Posted by bindi

Doesn't anyone see that by getting in bed with Dubya and going to war in Iraq that JH and his government have brought it on us?

Hence my earlier post Sour....

Originally Posted by smoo

I would prefer Australia cater to its own. If Muslims have issues with it, they can always move to a predominately Islam country where their culture will fit in.

WTF kind of a response is that??? as i said earlier i am white australian and muslim...so WTF is it that makes you more australian than me...and gives u the freaking right to say "Australia cater to its own", define that???? And why the hell should i move to a culture that is not my own. Where i pray and who i pray to has nothing to do with me feeling proud to be aussie and doing whats right by australia.

I for one dont have major issues with the laws. I have nothing to hide, so yeah they can take away whatever "Civil liberties" they want.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

A very stict way to look at it is this.

Do you wish to be protected as a member of the public? If so accept these laws.
If you feel you do not wish for this protection, leave the country.

Ofcourse this is a HIGHLY simplified view it is one that can be taken.

I agree with Dan's sentiments here. Obviously a simplification - but it's the crux of it isnt it?

Let's look at a handful of major terrorist activities over recent years - Sept 11, Bali Bombings, London public transportation system. Now, in each and every one of these instances, once the blame game is afoot the security services/police/government are accused of knowing something in advance. Chances are, this is true - should we not empower them to legislation to give them the tools they need to act on such information? Ironcially the people that point fingers as to "who knew what" are often the ones who oppose proposed measures to combat terrorism.

Now obviously the concern is that innocent people may be locked up without charges being laid. But is the cost of an infringement upon someone's "freedom" worth the benefit of preventing a terrorist attack? This, i dont know the answer to. But if 100 people are detained under the new laws - and 1 such person is prevented from committing a terrorist act against innocent australians... is it worth it? Im leaning towards "yes".

I also find it interesting how it is the opponents of the new laws which bring muslims into the debate... and accuse the government of targeting "certain sections" of our community... when it is in fact them who have made it "about muslims".

Whilst im not convinced by the new laws, i do applaud state and federal governments for trying something. If it doesnt work - you can assure the scrutiny received in australia will bring this to light.

It's a start.

I do know that it is inappropriate to start calling Australia a police state, to compare us with a 1940's Germany or a George Orwellion world. To compare our (relatively) free lifestyle with that of someone living under the Nazi regime is pretty insensitive. Care should be taken in making such statements.

Dont forget australia has a man named Terry Hicks being held for being a terroist. A terroist can be any colour or nationality.

Just a quickie - i believe it's david hicks on holiday at camp x-ray, terry would be his father IIRC.

[bdave351]

I dont see that they have much choice but to give law enforcement access to these powers as there is a LOT of "Australians" that hate Australia and our normal way of life. (And yes they have hated us for a long long time.)

Using these powers isnt going to be done to your average aussie , so your not going to get locked up without charge for pulling a burnout or speeding. Hell even if you kick your neighbour in the nuts or steal the national gallery they wont be used so they really wont affect the joe public in any meaningful way - just give the people who are there to protect us a few more tools to try to stop the nutcases when they get out of control.

[Des]

4.9 EF Futura makes some very valid points. Anyone who's seen the very informative work by National Geographic will know that the US Defence dept. had information that could of stopped 911 but couldn't pass it on to the FBI as it would of been outside of the Def. dept. jurisdiction, (the info that is). How much suffering would of been avoided then?

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Des

4.9 EF Futura makes some very valid points. Anyone who's seen the very informative work by National Geographic will know that the US Defence dept. had information that could of stopped 911 but couldn't pass it on to the FBI as it would of been outside of the Def. dept. jurisdiction, (the info that is). How much suffering would of been avoided then?

Keep in mind though, that information, doesnt always equate to "incident stopped".

Quality of intelligence plays a role too, at any given time you may have 100 resources giving you information. Some of it outright BS, some of it good intel. Sifting through it is a mammoth task, confirming it almost impossible.

Remember that the Pentagon and CIA rely on intelligence to operate. They can act on that outside of the US.
The FBI rely on Evidence to operate, they can act on that Inside of the US. The two are not the same(Intel vs Evidence). Probable Cause, Miranda, burden of proof, witnesses, these are all items the FBI operate on as a Law Enforcement entity. Simply providing rumours that perhaps this terrorist incident may occur, even if it had been forwarded to the FBI, was not enough for them to act with arrests. They had committed no crimes until they were already on the plane. The FBI cannot arrest people on what may happen, only on what has happened. At best they may have arrested them on conspiracy charges, and they would have had to known every single person involved to get them all, and its likely it still would have occured, terrorism relies on redundancy.

20 20 hindsight, its great for documentaries, but doesnt operate in a real world battle ground.

[Polyal]

While it probably isn't perfect, but what law is?

Its alot better than not doing anything, and to me it boils down to this: if you are being a normal, well behaved citizen and not doing anything weird or dodgey then whats the problem? Police are not going to go arresting people willy nilly, stop being so paranoid.

Atleast maybe this way we could possibly prevent something, rather than waiting for something to happen then go "crap, we should of done that".

[zetec]

Originally Posted by nak351

conspiracy theory on FF. ya gotta love that.

i'm thinking i'm not a terrorist, or pray with one therefore this new law will have absolutly nothing to do with me. the harder the better. it's about time this country started sticking up for itself instead of back peddling to minority groups.
if this new law prevents just 1 moron blowing the sydney opera house up and killing a thousand people then the law will be justified.

Couldn't agree more. I've got nothing to worry about, I am not a terrorist, I do not have WMD's and I have plenty of Muslim friends, there's nothing at all to concern me because I'm a law abiding citizen. I don't think this has been designed to give the government a reason (or no reason) to detain anyone who takes their fancy, they won't for example detain you for running a red light but I think if we approach these laws with reason then we can expect them to be enforced in a reasonable way. Don't assume the government is trying to do everything to scare us, I don't envy their task of trying to protect a nation without putting armed units on every street corner!

[ImpulseTaco]

This was coming, it was just a matter of time. The whole rest of the world is going this way, so it seems. We got the same thing with the Patriot act. This is just your country coming up to speed with everyone else, for better or worse.

Heres my opinion on terrorists:
I think people in general need to quit thinking that the "government" or "police" are the ones who need to protect them. I think people should protect themselves. Thats one of the reasons that I love our gun rights over here. I have a license to carry a concealed pistol, I feel it is my responsibility, as a license holder to protect those around me who aren't adequately prepared to protect themselves. A prime example being that if I were to happen up on a terrorist commiting acts, and I was in the position to stop it, I feel that it is my responsibility and duty TO stop it. I think if everyone felt that way, and was adequately prepared to go along with it, we wouldn't have "terrorist" attacks because the terrorists (whoever they may be) would be shot.

Remember, on 9/11 there were 4 planes that were hijacked. 3 made it to their destinations, one did not. There were heros on that plane that stopped it. Imagine if those heros had firearms during that flight. The pilots could have been saved and the plane would not have crashed.

As an added plus, concealed handgun license holders are some of the least likely people to use a weapon for unlawful purposes. The crime rate has gone down in states that have adopted some sort of handgun licensing program (including ours).

Lastly, I realize that our culture is vastly different than yours. I haven't been down ya'lls way (as of yet) so I can't just blindly say that the method prescribed above would fix all your problems, but I personally think it would be a step in the right direction.

[MrQuan]

Originally Posted by ImpulseTaco

This was coming, it was just a matter of time. The whole rest of the world is going this way, so it seems. We got the same thing with the Patriot act. This is just your country coming up to speed with everyone else, for better or worse.

Heres my opinion on terrorists:
I think people in general need to quit thinking that the "government" or "police" are the ones who need to protect them. I think people should protect themselves. Thats one of the reasons that I love our gun rights over here. I have a license to carry a concealed pistol, I feel it is my responsibility, as a license holder to protect those around me who aren't adequately prepared to protect themselves. A prime example being that if I were to happen up on a terrorist commiting acts, and I was in the position to stop it, I feel that it is my responsibility and duty TO stop it. I think if everyone felt that way, and was adequately prepared to go along with it, we wouldn't have "terrorist" attacks because the terrorists (whoever they may be) would be shot.

Remember, on 9/11 there were 4 planes that were hijacked. 3 made it to their destinations, one did not. There were heros on that plane that stopped it. Imagine if those heros had firearms during that flight. The pilots could have been saved and the plane would not have crashed.

As an added plus, concealed handgun license holders are some of the least likely people to use a weapon for unlawful purposes. The crime rate has gone down in states that have adopted some sort of handgun licensing program (including ours).

Lastly, I realize that our culture is vastly different than yours. I haven't been down ya'lls way (as of yet) so I can't just blindly say that the method prescribed above would fix all your problems, but I personally think it would be a step in the right direction.

I agree with a lot of what you say here. If you take away the right for people to defend themselves (i.e. carry concelled handguns), then crime will rise. The crims have nothing to worry about - they know no one can stop them. Just look at the incidents where security guards here in Australia were robbed for their guns!! because they were not allowed to use them!!! What rubbish! The crims took thier guns without a fight. Now imagine if the public were allowed to carry concelled handguns and defend themselves - robbing a store or holding up a bank would suddenly become extremely risky.

We can't rely on the police of government to protect us, that point has been proven many times over. Australian's need laws inhibiting self defence removed - not tougher laws introduced. We're becoming a nation of wimps that allow criminals (including terrorists) to do as they wish.

[MO]

Bindi get back in your box and take your two other personalities as well.....you have no bloody idea...conspiracy theories for crying out loud.
Still....your a redhead............l

[Psycho Chicken]

Originally Posted by EL_Advanti

Im White Australian and also Muslim.......infact there are a lot of "white" muslim australians. While im not a big fan of the new laws, i guess in the present climate its better to be safe than sorry. Any laws that give the authorities more power will get abused at some point, but if it helps to keep australia safe...not too many ppl will complain.

True, should of said Christian or something. No offence intended to you at all.

[MO]

Now that in my opinion is what the cops are afraid of being accused of ...racial profiling....isn't it strange the way a collective mind set can overide common sense as the pollies dictate...think about it.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by paul7v7

meh i will wait and see what happens but i don't do anything wrong or perceive to be doing anything wrong so it doesn't bother me at all.

so you think you have to do something wrong to end up in a lotta trouble . your either very young or you have had a very good rare life so far brother.
i've decided to add some more i haven't read all of this post yet but have the es after reading the 1st 2 pages . some people believe that everything goes as it should .
this is just an example i'll throw in from personall experiance .
when i was 20 years old i was in parramatta leagues club taking a ****. in a urinal .(toilets) anyhow 1/2 way through 2 bouncers stormed in lifted me up and threw me out of the club . reason , somebody threw a bottle outside on the dance floor and ran into the male toilets.
now what if that guy had threatened JIHAD ON SOMEPEOPLE and let off some fireworks in the club starting a fire. what would've happened to me under these new laws think about it. amd i am a white aussie.