Learner drivers... give them a chance...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by ford71V8

I almost hit the car when for no reason at all the driver stopped dead half way around.
I saw red and blasted the horn.

Sorry but the question must be asked, if you almost hit a car that suddenly stopped infront of you, is it the car infronts fault for stopping suddenly or the driver following for obviously being too close.

If you had hit him it wouldnt be his problem.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, at $80 an hour, that would require an outlay of $6000 just to complete the 75hrs

Presumably, the 75hrs requirement would be reduced if done with a qualified instructor.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Sorry but the question must be asked, if you almost hit a car that suddenly stopped infront of you, is it the car infronts fault for stopping suddenly or the driver following for obviously being too close.

Righteousness is no guarantee of safety. Surely you teach people not to turn into road hazards, regardless of whether the law allows them to be?

[getabout]

Originally Posted by Express

I never understand why people tailgate.

Apart from the obvious accident risk, tailgating = stone chips.

And maybe hitting a dead roo like I did when following a 4wd at night on a local road. Wasn't exactly tailgating but didn't have time to avoid it. Up went the EA on its left hand side, no real damage luckily!

[OffRoadFalcon]

I wish I had an uncle like you Rallye Sport! Sounds like your nephew is getting a fantastic start too!

There are some extremely impatient drivers around, especially around Learners, I remember several similar encounters to what you've come across whilst I was on my L's. But those experiences can be helpful, as you learn to deal handle situations like that safely, which is an important skill as well!

And have fun at the track day, that will be a blast!

[Rolkus]

Great post.

Teaching young people how to drive is my job.

The amount of impatient people on the road. Astound me. As an instructor, I generally have to keep my cool and just call them some colourful words. Which helps the learner relax a little. I encourage learners to make mistakes in lessons, it's the best way to learn, and I never yell at the student, even if they do something wrong.

[Rolkus]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, at $80 an hour, that would require an outlay of $6000 just to complete the 75hrs, you're right driving wouldnt be a priveledge, just for those priveledged to have a family able to outlay $6k...

Wow, $80 an hour. Where do I sign!?

I charge $45 for 50 minutes.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Rolkus

Wow, $80 an hour. Where do I sign!?

I charge $45 for 50 minutes.

RAA charge $115 for a 90 min lesson for non members, they would be considered one of the better trainers.

Some we enquired were as high as $120 for 90 mins.

Even at your price its still $50hr, or $3750 for 75hrs just to get your L's, becomeing an instructor is only about $5k so im led to believe.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Righteousness is no guarantee of safety. Surely you teach people not to turn into road hazards, regardless of whether the law allows them to be?

That is exactly correct and why i always tell my kids it doesnt matter who is in the right, accidents hurt, but thats not my point, from a legal point of view and in line with the rules of the road, if you hit a car that stops for whatever reason directly infront of you, you havent left appropriate braking distance.

An insurance company would also find the rear driver responsible.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

That is exactly correct and why i always tell my kids it doesnt matter who is in the right, accidents hurt, but thats not my point, from a legal point of view and in line with the rules of the road, if you hit a car that stops for whatever reason directly infront of you, you havent left appropriate braking distance.

An insurance company would also find the rear driver responsible.

The person behind is always at fault, unless the car in front is in reverse

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Presumably, the 75hrs requirement would be reduced if done with a qualified instructor.

Thats all good and well to presume, but it is currently 75hrs no ifs, no butts.

If it were as simple as having more instructor lessons it would have been implemented but it wasnt because the system was abused before.

[TUF_302]

Whats the speed limit on the highways over there mate?? they now allow learners and p platers to do 100 in 110 zones which has helped keep the flow better

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

The person behind is always at fault, unless the car in front is in reverse

Precisely, infact i won a case against a drunk driver who backed out of a 45* carpark. He claimed i hit him up the **** and i said i had already stopped and had actually put my car into reverse to get out of his way but didnt get moving quick enough.
Witness behind me gave a statement that he had stopped behind me and freaked out when my reverse lights came on.

Had a brand spanking new nosecone and bonnet fitted to my EF XR8

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

Whats the speed limit on the highways over there mate?? they now allow learners and p platers to do 100 in 110 zones which has helped keep the flow better

100 for learners in SA, i agree 100 is much better.

I remember holding everyone up when doing 80 back in the day, swore i'd never take my kids driving on long weekends etc. for that very reason.
Now they can do 100, half my sons driving hours have been country highway k's over weekends when traffic is up, no probs.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

There's been times I've been following a car driving abnormally, then after a while discover an 'L' plate hidden by the window tint.

Forty something years ago when I got my licence, 'L' and 'P' plates had to be mounted at the front and rear of the car, not in windows.

I think it depends on the state. In SA, (when i was on my P's) the rules was, it just had to be visible from the front and rear of the car (so in the window is fine, as long as its visible)
After a fine for the corner of a plate folding down, i adopted the way most Victorians do, and screwed a p plate through the numberplate at the back (the front one being in line of sight, was seen if it ever fell down)

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Lol, at $80 an hour, that would require an outlay of $6000 just to complete the 75hrs, you're right driving wouldnt be a priveledge, just for those priveledged to have a family able to outlay $6k...

So you think the better option is letting people who have no understanding of the rules teach our new drivers?

[b0son]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

The person behind is always at fault, unless the car in front is in reverse

Or the person in front suddenly changed lanes and immediately hit the anchors. Have been in such a situation and the driver in front was found liable. Truckies will relate... if you're going to change lanes, do the person behind the courtesy of leaving them some breathing space. Its infuriating when people change lines in front of you and leave a bees dick between.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

So you think the better option is letting people who have no understanding of the rules teach our new drivers?

No, do you actually read?

I said it should be mandatory that a learner who has just obtained their learners permit, undertake atleast 4, probably as many as 8 lessons with a qualified driving instructor and pass a preliminary test, BEFORE they are permitted do undertake their first minute of driving hours.

That way the instructor who is trained to assess wether a person is capable of handling a motor vehicle, can assess them and give them the basic rules of car control which they can then hone whilst in the company of a parent or friend.
That way thye onus isnt on the parent or friend to teach the driver, but to be there keeping an eye on what they are doing.

Then once the mandatory hours are complete a couple of subsequent lessons and a final exam will expose wether the driver took on board what was taught initially and wether the 75hrs improved their ability, you dont get your P's until you've proven yourself over a whole year to a qualified instructor.

Now, wheres the problem, its the same system we have now, roughly 10 lessons and a test/s without the rediculous expense of paying $50-$80p/hr and having to book the opportunity.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by b0son

Or the person in front suddenly changed lanes and immediately hit the anchors. Have been in such a situation and the driver in front was found liable. Truckies will relate... if you're going to change lanes, do the person behind the courtesy of leaving them some breathing space. Its infuriating when people change lines in front of you and leave a bees dick between.

Im a truck driver, i relate, a dash cam helps.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

RAA charge $115 for a 90 min lesson for non members, they would be considered one of the better trainers.

Some we enquired were as high as $120 for 90 mins.

Even at your price its still $50hr, or $3750 for 75hrs just to get your L's, becomeing an instructor is only about $5k so im led to believe.

In Victoria, the driver instructor industry was completely deregulated by everyone's favourite premier, Jeff Kennett in the 1990's. The net result is that any Tom, Richard and Harry can open a driving instructor business and general driving skill has deteriorated sharply since.

[Beastie]

I think that there are two different issues;

1. Learning the road rules
2. Learning how to drive / control a car

Learning the road rules is the easy part, you just have to study the book / online. Take the online practice test as many times as you want / need.

Learning how to drive / control a car is a whole different kettle of fish!

My parents taught me how to drive and I taught both my kids how to drive. With both my kids it was not just get in, start her up, push the pedals and let's see what happens...

It was me driving to a quite industrial estate explaining everything that I was doing as I was driving to the estate. This included gear changes, scanning, looking well in advance / behind, hovering over the brake pedal, gaps, anticipation etc, etc.

Once we got to the estate, I would then demonstrate the route & speed that I wanted my kids to replicate later. I did this a few times so that they were comfortable knowing where they were going etc (my speed was quite slow).

Then I would swap with them and give them the opportunity to have a go.

This included hard braking (deliberately stalling to demonstrate that that's ok), weaving in between the center lines, reversing in between the center lines, reverse parking, hill starts, in the wet, in the dark etc, etc

We went through this process many, many, many times before I even considered letting them "learn" in traffic.

It was only when I was comfortable with their car control, as well as their observation skills (as I would always ask them random questions while they were driving), that I would make the decision for them to have a go at driving through traffic (which included asking them if they felt comfortable).

Both my kids had to do 150 hours and it wasn't until the last 10 - 15 hours, that we engaged a professional driving instructor - just as a further confidence booster.

Both kids came back from their lessons and the feedback from the instructor was great. Both kids had great car control and awareness, just needed to touch up on a couple of rules...

So the morale of my story is that what you put into teaching your kids, is what they will get out of it - be patient, be calm, and give them the opportunity to learn car control in a quite area well before getting out into the traffic.

You don't need to be a professional driving instructor to do that.

Do I have bad habits - probably
Do my kids have bad habits - probably
Do I feel confident in my kids driving ability - Absolutely!

And yes, I give L plater's plenty of room!

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

No, do you actually read?

I said it should be mandatory that a learner who has just obtained their learners permit, undertake atleast 4, probably as many as 8 lessons with a qualified driving instructor and pass a preliminary test, BEFORE they are permitted do undertake their first minute of driving hours.

That way the instructor who is trained to assess wether a person is capable of handling a motor vehicle, can assess them and give them the basic rules of car control which they can then hone whilst in the company of a parent or friend.
That way thye onus isnt on the parent or friend to teach the driver, but to be there keeping an eye on what they are doing.

Then once the mandatory hours are complete a couple of subsequent lessons and a final exam will expose wether the driver took on board what was taught initially and wether the 75hrs improved their ability, you dont get your P's until you've proven yourself over a whole year to a qualified instructor.

Now, wheres the problem, its the same system we have now, roughly 10 lessons and a test/s without the rediculous expense of paying $50-$80p/hr and having to book the opportunity.

The problem is, you're still allowing someone with no knowledge of current rules to teach their kids. They can barely drive themselves, allowing them to instruct another is a complete joke (and the reason theres more and more **** drivers)

[LTDHO]

Originally Posted by The Beast

I think that there are two different issues;

1. Learning the road rules
2. Learning how to drive / control a car

Learning the road rules is the easy part, you just have to study the book / online. Take the online practice test as many times as you want / need.

Learning how to drive / control a car is a whole different kettle of fish!

I can't say I entirely agree with you Beast.

Most people don't take the time to learn road rules. Most learn all they have to to pass a test. they have no idea how many rules there are and how they apply.

Same with drive/control. Most learn how to pass a test for a Probationary licence. Then the rest they learn afterward, which isn't much at all.

[Beastie]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I can't say I entirely agree with you Beast.

Most people don't take the time to learn road rules. Most learn all they have to to pass a test. they have no idea how many rules there are and how they apply.

Same with drive/control. Most learn how to pass a test for a Probationary licence. Then the rest they learn afterward, which isn't much at all.

Fair enough. Everyone is different and we all had to start somewhere.

Experience has no substitute and I wanted to make sure that both my kids had what I considered enough car control to manage traffic without panicking and then becoming a hazard to themselves and others.

I agree that not everyone can / will do this.

[Rolkus]

Originally Posted by Loud_Noises

In Victoria, the driver instructor industry was completely deregulated by everyone's favourite premier, Jeff Kennett in the 1990's. The net result is that any Tom, Richard and Harry can open a driving instructor business and general driving skill has deteriorated sharply since.

Yeah, but a few years back it was re-regulated and now falls under the Taxi Services Commission.

In Victoria, you need 120 hours (if under 21) to apply for your P's - 10 of those hours must be at night.


I was taught to drive by a family member, never once had a professional lesson, and now I teach people to drive for a job, nothing against it - I've never had an accident thats been my fault either.

[Rolkus]

Also, the Victorian Government has a program called Keys2Drive where they PAY for an hour lesson for a parent and student to go with an instructor (parent to see how the instructor teaches), which is beneficial to all parties involved.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by Rolkus

Yeah, but a few years back it was re-regulated and now falls under the Taxi Services Commission.

In Victoria, you need 120 hours (if under 21) to apply for your P's - 10 of those hours must be at night.


I was taught to drive by a family member, never once had a professional lesson, and now I teach people to drive for a job, nothing against it - I've never had an accident thats been my fault either.

So what sort of hoops do you need to jump through to become an accredited driving instructor?

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Rolkus

I encourage learners to make mistakes in lessons, it's the best way to learn....

I'm puzzled by this statement. How does that work?

Why would you encourage learners to make mistakes? That would only cause problems with other road users, and confuse the learner making it harder for them to learn the correct ways.

I would have thought you would guide them through the particular manoeuvres in quiet streets, to show them how to correctly perform them right from the start. So then they can tackle them more confidently in busier streets.

[xurbanx]

I give them loads of room or I'll move onto the next lane. There's nothing worse than trying to learn and having someone blast you with their horn from behind.

I went through the same thing a few months back - had to learn manual whilst being on a full licence. Had a big yellow laminated strip of paper stating 'LEARNING MANUAL - MIGHT STALL". I started learning in increments, eg. learning by myself in the dead of night 3AM, then when I was a bit more comfortable I'll go onto Sunday morning traffic, then from took the freeway and open roads. The last test was hopping into peak hour/city traffic .

Generally I find it's the minority that beep or tailgate you most give you loads of room when at the lights.

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Sorry but the question must be asked, if you almost hit a car that suddenly stopped infront of you, is it the car infronts fault for stopping suddenly or the driver following for obviously being too close.

If you had hit him it wouldnt be his problem.

Fair post I guess.
Cars generally don't come to a sudden stop half way around a roundabout. I didn't hit them, so I guess I left enough room yeah?
I was already wary of the car as it was.

The L-plate not being visible was my point of course. Had it been in plain sight I probably would have stayed further back and I certainly would not have lent on the horn to let them know what an *** they have been.

Like someone else said, I have also seen the plates hidden behind tinted glass on hatchbacks with raked rear screens. Its not much different to not wearing them if nobody can see them.

My old man attached huge truck L Plates to mums Corona when I was 16. You could spot them from the adjacent suburb.

[Boza]

Some people think they fell out of the womb as the world's best driver and forget they we're once a learner themselves and love to give L plasters grief I can't stand these people a family member turns 16 this month and will be getting his learner's.