Protest

[merlin]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

What it should be targetting, is idiots, unconfident drivers, incapable drivers and the chronically immature.

But it is - its targeting...drum roll.....P platers :

[Jamie XR6]

How they are going to police it is another matter.

I guess they would just have to take the same approach as they do to speeding, that you will eventually get caught :hihi:

I think a lot of innocent P platers are going to get very sick of being pulled over for a licence check.

[merlin]

It wouldnt be just P platers who get pulled over more:

A lot of P platers will simply just not drive with P plates on which means the police will be forced to pull over and randomly license check ALL V8 and turbo car drivers to ensure they are not P platers...

PS - i'm still all for it though

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

This legislation is targetting speed by means of what a car is capable of. Its targetting an entire demographic tied with speeding which isnt represented in any statistics ever compiled, feel free to find some that support the theory and not just "I once saw" annecdotes from "When I was a lad".

What it should be targetting, is idiots, unconfident drivers, incapable drivers and the chronically immature. You want to lower fatalities, the only proven way is tougher testing, thorough training, and I would even include a psychological component to the testing. And you want to reduce it further? You could have people who lose their license for whatever legal reasons, have to resit the exams to get it back. Bad drivers come at all ages and many of them already have licenses.

Oh absolutely. I 100% agree. Do you think they'll be able to implement this, seriously? No, they won't. I'd suggest the one statistic they do use is the statistic that shows 17-20yr in Sydney represent 7% of road users yet are 4 times likely to go splat on the road than any other (larger) demographic.

I've never maintained that not allowing P platers access to hi-po cars will solve the problem. I said it at least removes one of the key factors in negative behaviour on Sydney roads.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

And the reason they did this was because they drive turbo cars? :
Everything you keep talking about has nothing to do with the cars they drive. They are still going to be idiots after the new law. What next ban the brand of shoes they like?

Had they been driving unmodified factory cars, I doubt they would have chased and harrased someone in an XR8 because they wouldn't have been able to keep up if I didn't want them to.

So attempting to force me off the road on the M5 early in the morning and chasing me down and harrassing me after going to a Maccas would have happened in cars not actually capable of keeping up with me?

How about the drag race in the Skyline in Cronulla that hit and splatted a pedestrian at around 160kph. Had he been driving a Corolla, do you think he would still be alive today?

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

You are talking about a local law enforcement issue, disturbing the peace is not a motor related offence. Neither is assault, or flinging burgers with intent to scratch. Lizardmech is correct, that has nothing to do with hi powered cars. The same thugs would be down at KFC "westside" in excels abusing people if they were told that was all they could drive. You have a personal agenda to this debate, and you are tarring everyone with the same brush, which is an insult to many P platers who have never slung a burger in anger before.

It would also appear you've not read everything I've wrote on this subject. Absolutely I have an agenda because I share the road with some of these clowns. Jumping into their cars and chasing me because I happened to be driving a V8, is that a motor related offence? Is it any wonder that road rage laws were introduced in Sydney (don't know about anywhere else) because of the increasing problems on our roads? (and no, don't think I'm blaming P platers for that).

Behind modified cars within young guys in Sydney is a culture and it's not a culture that represents the same things it did when I was growing up with V8's. Did you catch the ACA(?) story on it? It does take a change in law enforcement as well... which I've already suggested. In reality, that was a pretty soft story and just showed them paying out on Cops. Considering they have no respect for them, imagine the respect they have for Joe Citizen when they just happen to travel past and catch the eye of some of these guys.

There apparently has been a significant drop in young motorcycle fatalities since the introduction of restricted capacities in motorcycles, even though a 250 can get you down the quarter in a little over 10 secs. I noticed no-one has commented on that yet.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Had they been driving unmodified factory cars, I doubt they would have chased and harrased someone in an XR8 because they wouldn't have been able to keep up if I didn't want them to.

So attempting to force me off the road on the M5 early in the morning and chasing me down and harrassing me after going to a Maccas would have happened in cars not actually capable of keeping up with me?

How about the drag race in the Skyline in Cronulla that hit and splatted a pedestrian at around 160kph. Had he been driving a Corolla, do you think he would still be alive today?

You're funny. Speaking from the experience of currently being 17 and knowing several 17-20 something year old ****ers, who I look down upon for alot of their actions, it DOES NOT MATTER what they drive. I know some people who have done things like you describe those people with turbo cars did, and guess what cars they had? Holden Commodore VL 3.0 6cyl, N/A, factory stock, factory hubcaps.. worth around $500. 1985 Honda Civic 1.5 4cyl, stock, also worth about $500. 1985 Mitsubishi Colt 4cyl manual, worth about $200. 1985 Mazda 121 1.0 4cyl. Worth maybe $500.

The vehicle has absolutley NOTHING to do with what these people do, their ATTITUDE has 100% to do with it. And the way some of them behave, they would try and chase your XR8 even if they can't keep up with it. It is not a car's fault if its owner is an idiot, and an idiot can buy ANYTHING. And for your information, a Corolla can just as easily go 160km/h as any other car (I've seen it). And hitting a person in a Skyline will have the same effect as in a Corolla, or ANY OTHER CAR for that matter.

How often do you hear stories of four young men, in a slow, 4cyl, doof doof machine (like a stock 1.8 Celica), who thought they were master drivers, and wrapped themselves around a telegraph pole in Parramatta at 140km/h and all died? ALL the time, because they were idiots, not because the car was awesomely powerful or fast, but because they were idiots.

My van had a busted up 2.0 4cyl engine, with a burned valve, only firing 3 cylinders. And I could still get it up to 100km/h+ easily if I really had the desire to. I never exceeded 80km/h in it (L-Licence + no need), but it just shows that you don't need to have a powerful car to be an idiot. ANYONE CAN, and this law they have will do ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to stop this. The idiot car of choice will move on from being a 1994 WRX or 1989 R32 GTSt Skyline or 1989 S13 Silvia Turbo to being a 1995 Hyundai Excel or 1995 Honda Civic or cars like this. All this will do is change the vehicle of choice in the idiot buyer demographic. It won't stop the idiocy.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Steffo

You're funny. Speaking from the experience of currently being 17 and knowing several 17-20 something year old ****ers, who I look down upon for alot of their actions, it DOES NOT MATTER what they drive. I know some people who have done things like you describe those people with turbo cars did, and guess what cars they had? Holden Commodore VL 3.0 6cyl, N/A, factory stock, factory hubcaps.. worth around $500. 1985 Honda Civic 1.5 4cyl, stock, also worth about $500. 1985 Mitsubishi Colt 4cyl manual, worth about $200. 1985 Mazda 121 1.0 4cyl. Worth maybe $500.

The vehicle has absolutley NOTHING to do with what these people do, their ATTITUDE has 100% to do with it. And the way some of them behave, they would try and chase your XR8 even if they can't keep up with it. It is not a car's fault if its owner is an idiot, and an idiot can buy ANYTHING. And for your information, a Corolla can just as easily go 160km/h as any other car (I've seen it). And hitting a person in a Skyline will have the same effect as in a Corolla, or ANY OTHER CAR for that matter.

How often do you hear stories of four young men, in a slow, 4cyl, doof doof machine (like a stock 1.8 Celica), who thought they were master drivers, and wrapped themselves around a telegraph pole in Parramatta at 140km/h and all died? ALL the time, because they were idiots, not because the car was awesomely powerful or fast, but because they were idiots.

My van had a busted up 2.0 4cyl engine, with a burned valve, only firing 3 cylinders. And I could still get it up to 100km/h+ easily if I really had the desire to. I never exceeded 80km/h in it (L-Licence + no need), but it just shows that you don't need to have a powerful car to be an idiot. ANYONE CAN, and this law they have will do ABSOLUTLEY NOTHING to stop this. The idiot car of choice will move on from being a 1994 WRX or 1989 R32 GTSt Skyline or 1989 S13 Silvia Turbo to being a 1995 Hyundai Excel or 1995 Honda Civic or cars like this. All this will do is change the vehicle of choice in the idiot buyer demographic. It won't stop the idiocy.

Yeap thats true, but it takes away the chance for them to be even bigger idiots.

I still dont think anyone here has said why a P plater needs a V8/turbo?

The fact remains that a P platers is going to be more potentially dangerous in one of these cars. I dont see how you can argue with that. So, take away that potential and there is a case that the road toll MIGHT fall. But until they try you will never know.

Hypothetically if P platers where to be ristricted to lets say, atmo 2.0L then whats the harm in that? They are only on there P's for 3 years. In this time they will save cash for a "better" car once of your P's, insurance will be alot cheaper; and the potential for high speed accidents/drags (whatever) is reduced.

If it falls on its **** then fine, admit it didn't work and move on. Its worth a try.

There will always be exceptions (like I said before), but laws are for the majority, not minority.

[Steffo]

Well sure, you can say they don't need a faster car, but then, does anyone? Why don't we just ban them completley then....

[philstoj]

Originally Posted by merlin

But it is - its targeting...drum roll.....P platers :

Yes it is, and unfortunatly, thats the way life is, its always the **** wits that stuff it up for everyone else, so dont protest the governments decision to introduce these laws, protest the **** wits who are causing the problem...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Well sure, you can say they don't need a faster car, but then, does anyone? Why don't we just ban them completley then....

Now your just being silly and you know it.

The whole point is that P platers can drive for 3 years, not kill them selves, and then have alot more road sense before they get into these cars.

If you can honestly say you didn't do some stupid stuff once you got your P's then you are a lier IMO.

[seano14]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Well sure, you can say they don't need a faster car, but then, does anyone? Why don't we just ban them completley then....

why? your reason for saying that doesnt really make sense.

whats so unreasonable about keeping learning drivers out of high powered cars for what, 3 years is it? shit, not like it's your whole life is it. unless you plan on driving like a fool and killing yourself before the 3 years is up.

yes people can die in low powered cars, you can also kill yourself by slipping over in a supermarket on a wet floor. these new rules arent saying that it will stop all young deaths, that is impossible.

but more power = more potential. what has more potential to do stupid shit, a 80hp FWD pulsar or a 600hp silvia that a P plater near me flogs the hell out of everytime i see him go by? which driver would be more likely to show off the power of their car to a passenger? and i am yet to hear a constructive reason as to why P platers should have access to powerful cars.

Originally Posted by steffo

My van had a busted up 2.0 4cyl engine, with a burned valve, only firing 3 cylinders. And I could still get it up to 100km/h+ easily if I really had the desire to. I never exceeded 80km/h in it (L-Licence + no need), but it just shows that you don't need to have a powerful car to be an idiot.

umm... dont want to offend, but are you calling yourself an idiot......?

[Quasi]

No reason for someone who just got their license to drive a high performance car anyway.

They are called a 'provisional' license for a reason. Despite what a new driver may think, they don't know what they are doing simply because a public servant ticked a box and gave them a plastic card with their picture on it. Yes, there are drivers out there with up to 40 years+ behind the wheel that don't know what they are doing either, but many of them aren't trying to impress their friends.

[OLDFORDNUT]

the last few posts are getting a bit heated,the only answer is and always has been power to weight ratio,and better education,,
sure you can wind your old banger up to 140kmh but as it is embarrassing, most owners of these slow cars will not do it ,hence a lot safer on the road,also there car is not going to get sideways with just a tiny bit too much peddal like a turbo or warm v8.the other good idea is to limit p platers too one passenger only .
as stated in earlier post you can never stop the real IDIOT but you can sure take away or reduce some of his/her weopon's, making it a bit safer for others,
this new law is as useless as tits on a bull,as it lets these young people still build a very fast car with engine mods,
Power to Weight rule: would stop this and still allow standard Turbo 4wd and V8's for young kids

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Rodp

It would also appear you've not read everything I've wrote on this subject. Absolutely I have an agenda because I share the road with some of these clowns. Jumping into their cars and chasing me because I happened to be driving a V8, is that a motor related offence? Is it any wonder that road rage laws were introduced in Sydney (don't know about anywhere else) because of the increasing problems on our roads? (and no, don't think I'm blaming P platers for that).

Behind modified cars within young guys in Sydney is a culture and it's not a culture that represents the same things it did when I was growing up with V8's. Did you catch the ACA(?) story on it? It does take a change in law enforcement as well... which I've already suggested. In reality, that was a pretty soft story and just showed them paying out on Cops. Considering they have no respect for them, imagine the respect they have for Joe Citizen when they just happen to travel past and catch the eye of some of these guys.

There apparently has been a significant drop in young motorcycle fatalities since the introduction of restricted capacities in motorcycles, even though a 250 can get you down the quarter in a little over 10 secs. I noticed no-one has commented on that yet.

Oh please dont tell me you are one of the mindless folk who watch Ray Martin regurgitate everynight and treat it like gospel. One camera interviewing a dozen "gangstas" does not a riot on the roads make. You are making things out to be like a Mad Max Movie.

Ofcourse anyone can make the argument that a P plater doesnt need a v8, i can make the same argument for every man jack of us here, none of us NEED a v8. Does this mean all P platers are dangerous in a V8? No. I learned to drive in an SLR 5000 until it was stolen, and ive never had a major accident or a speeding ticket in 12 years of driving. Not even a bloody parking ticket. But probability suggests I should already be dead in my v8 with a half eaten burger in one hand, a stolen mobile phone in the other, and three dead lebanese mates in the back.

This is descriminatory legislation designed (as usual) to avoid tackling the real reasons behind fatalities on the road, which i've already, and many others, outlined in detail. Its legislation based on media sensationalism.

And I reiterate, you have an issue with gang related crime Rodp, not with P platers, please get some perspective on this. The culture you outline is a criminal element with a affinity for fast cars and dangerous driving, instead your skewing this to be all P platers. I guarantee that the same P platers that chased you that night, once they are off their P's will be doing the same thing. These people dont get magically cured once they are off their P Plates. They are thugs and criminals FIRST, P Platers second.

statistic that shows 17-20yr in Sydney represent 7% of road users yet are 4 times likely to go splat on the road than any other (larger) demographic.

And of these "splats" how many are directly related to the vehicles acceleration capabilities. Id guarantee most of them would be once again driver inattention.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by seano14

why? your reason for saying that doesnt really make sense.

whats so unreasonable about keeping learning drivers out of high powered cars for what, 3 years is it? shit, not like it's your whole life is it. unless you plan on driving like a fool and killing yourself before the 3 years is up.

yes people can die in low powered cars, you can also kill yourself by slipping over in a supermarket on a wet floor. these new rules arent saying that it will stop all young deaths, that is impossible.

but more power = more potential. what has more potential to do stupid shit, a 80hp FWD pulsar or a 600hp silvia that a P plater near me flogs the hell out of everytime i see him go by? which driver would be more likely to show off the power of their car to a passenger? and i am yet to hear a constructive reason as to why P platers should have access to powerful cars.



umm... dont want to offend, but are you calling yourself an idiot......?

Learner drivers can still drive whatever they want. Supervision doesn't stop an over-eager jab of the right pedal to over-take and lose the back-end etc.

A legitimate reason why a fully licensed driver needs a hi-po car is required to discriminate against another group. This is something every supporter of these stupid rules dodges. Or modify a car for that matter, surely you can see where it's all headed? Manufacturer power restrictions and all modification made illegal.

The resale value of all hi-po cars will be : by this as well.

Turbo diesels can go damn fast and are exempt from these rules.

What is someone more likely to thrash? Thier cheap POS or something they have had to work hard to pay for and continue to for the massive insurance costs etc.

[Jamie XR6]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Oh please dont tell me you are one of the mindless folk who watch Ray Martin regurgitate everynight and treat it like gospel. One camera interviewing a dozen "gangstas" does not a riot on the roads make. You are making things out to be like a Mad Max Movie.

You can tell you aren't from Sydney.

As much as I agree with your comments about ACA and that style of so called journalism. I watched that particular show (the first time I've watched ACA for years) and they got it correct. That is exactly how these fools carry on and it's a lot more than a dozen. These twits block roads as they carry on with their Macca nats.

Admittedly they did carry on towards the Police a bit more than they would, after all they had the protection of the cameras and they knew the Police couldn't retaliate, but that's how they treat the public if your car doesn't fit into their ideal.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Learner drivers can still drive whatever they want. Supervision doesn't stop an over-eager jab of the right pedal to over-take and lose the back-end etc.

A legitimate reason why a fully licensed driver needs a hi-po car is required to discriminate against another group. This is something every supporter of these stupid rules dodges. Or modify a car for that matter, surely you can see where it's all headed? Manufacturer power restrictions and all modification made illegal.

The resale value of all hi-po cars will be : by this as well.

Turbo diesels can go damn fast and are exempt from these rules.

What is someone more likely to thrash? Thier cheap POS or something they have had to work hard to pay for and continue to for the massive insurance costs etc.

Shitty supervision from shitty parents will allow learners from "jabbing" the pedal. What kind of disrespectful shit does that!

Discrimination, you have to be kidding me.

And how will it make modifications illegal? ANd who gives a toot about resale when you are talking about saving lives.

You have mentioned turbo diesils before; easy, they go aswell. If you can get a TD veriso of a car, you can get an atmo instead.

I dont think people aged between 18-21 are going to effect the car market by only driving certain cars.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Shitty supervision from shitty parents will allow learners from "jabbing" the pedal. What kind of disrespectful shit does that!

Discrimination, you have to be kidding me.

And how will it make modifications illegal? ANd who gives a toot about resale when you are talking about saving lives.

You have mentioned turbo diesils before; easy, they go aswell. If you can get a TD veriso of a car, you can get an atmo instead.

I dont think people aged between 18-21 are going to effect the car market by only driving certain cars.

And dodge again...

I don't think you understand my mentioning turbo diesels, they are EXEMPT from these rules, anyone can still drive them.

They bring in restrictions, rake in money from laws that contradict our own standards and breach our constitution daily. I don't think making modifications to all road going vehicles (to save lives of course! :rolleyes: ) illegal and imposing maximum power out-puts on all production vehicles is a stretch, do you?

Changing the weapon of choice does not change the person. As per our gun laws, gun crime went down, knifings went through the roof.

L and P platers will always be over-represented in traffic accidents because we are learning, not because of what we drive. All this speed kills, lower speed limits (proven NOT to save lives but infact make the roads MORE dangerous something the govt has chosen to ignore), power/weight, ban V8 and turbo are a waste of time and resources that should be going into compulsary driver training. They need to try something DIFFERENT not the same stupid crap cause it happens to make them money.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

L and P platers will always be over-represented in traffic accidents because we are learning, not because of what we drive. All this speed kills, lower speed limits (proven NOT to save lives but infact make the roads MORE dangerous something the govt has chosen to ignore), power/weight, ban V8 and turbo are a waste of time and resources that should be going into compulsary driver training. They need to try something DIFFERENT not the same stupid crap cause it happens to make them money.

This bit of your post I agree with.

BUT; until that happens what else would you like them to do? Nothing?

I still struggle to understand why someone would be against something that could potentialy save lives.

Has anyone even answered the main question that has been asked in this thread? Why does a P plater need a V8/turbo?

Coz doesn't count either

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by seano14

umm... dont want to offend, but are you calling yourself an idiot......?

If you read my statement properly, you'll notice that I never exceeded 80km/h in the van - as are the rules for L-Platers in NSW. I was simply providing example, that busted **** 2.0 carb 4cyl engine, only firing on 3cyl.. can still go 100km/h+. Even if an idiot can't drive a car that can accelerate a bit better, said idiot can still drive at lethal speeds.

The banning of 8cyls, turbo and supercharged cars is extremley stupid. An XD 351 V8 has all of 149kW and is slower then an LPG BA XT (with its whopping 156kW). I don't see how that could ever be classes as a "high performance vehicles."

On the other hand, a used E36 BMW M3, which can be picked up for $30 - $35k for a 3.0 and $40 - $45k for an SMG 3.2... is naturally aspirated, and a whole lot faster. So I guess instead of buying them their dream WRX or XR8 or SS or something... kids are going to find alternatives.. like cars like that, or older Elises (1995 Elise - 88kW 1.8 4cyl.. 13.7sec 1/4's and 100x harder to drive then a BA GT) etc, which are exempt to that idiotic legislation. If that Costa guy and the RTA had half a clue, they'd at least make a power/weight list like their southern mates Bracksy and the gang at Vicroads did. It's a much better idea then just saying "V8 or turbo = fast."

Damn.. looks like a VK Commy with 120kW of 253 V8 mumbo is a high performance car... what does that make a 139kW MPFI EA then, an all out monster? :

[Perana]

The short answer is they dont need a V8 or turbo...

The point is these laws are NOT going to stop the idiots from driving like tards and causing accidents...

[Polyal]

Ah! This thread is driving me crazy!

The issue is you cant go, "ok V8's are banned except for pre 1990." Its just to bloody hard to govern.

So you just go no V8's, end of storey. Its alot easy for everyone.

Stop making these remarks to M3's FFS; I know there are rich kids out there but lets be serious. The cars in question here are (while its not about the cars its is the driver in the end I know) imports and V8's which with a few mods can go pretty hard; they are relatievly cheap to purchase so therefore a P plater is going to go straight for them.

You will never stop idiots from being idiots; but you can atleast try and minimise the damage.

[DivHunter]

We are not asking that they do nothing, but that it's something that may actually *shock* tackle the problem. Harm minimisation is a poor way to approach a problem.

[Steffo]

E36 M3's aren't that expensive anymore. They're cheaper then a brand new BA XT. You don't need rich parents to buy you one anymore, middle income people can buy them. And there are MANY middle income parents who buy their kids cars, I know so many people like that. One guy even (and he totally does NOT deserve the car and drives it like a f**k), his dad (who's not a rich guy, runs a hot food takeaway shop thing in Central Station in Sydney.. from the Elizabeth Street entrance, to the left of that big uber long tunnel).. well, he bought his son a brand new 2001 WRX. That's about $45k...... and I know of many many many more examples.

[Steffo]

And besides, give an idiot a 40kW 1985 Corolla, if he or she is determined, they'll still wind up wrapped around a pole at 140km/h. Nothing will become safer with this legislation... five years down the track, they'll be scratching their heads when the road toll is still as high as its ever been, wondering why there stop-gap bandaid fixes aren't working.

Much smarter would be an enforced Power/Weight ratio limit and actual proper driver training before giving someone their P's. Not the usual.. ah you can reverse park and change lanes - here you go, have fun!

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Jamie XR6

You can tell you aren't from Sydney.

As much as I agree with your comments about ACA and that style of so called journalism. I watched that particular show (the first time I've watched ACA for years) and they got it correct. That is exactly how these fools carry on and it's a lot more than a dozen. These twits block roads as they carry on with their Macca nats.

Admittedly they did carry on towards the Police a bit more than they would, after all they had the protection of the cameras and they knew the Police couldn't retaliate, but that's how they treat the public if your car doesn't fit into their ideal.

OK so im not from Sydney, but still so far I havent heard an "ALL PLATERS DO THIS SO WE MUST ACT" issue. I've heard alot of local law enforcement issues based on what some criminals do, that happen to be P platers. Once these people get off their P's their behaviour is not going to change overnight, and we all know this. No legislation about the vehicle a P Plater drives is going to stop these people being criminals and performing criminal acts.

This is a pointless law. The only way to stop the criminals is through law enforcement acting on what these guys do. That means more then staging a raid on maccas and defecting cars, which is not worth the time. The groups need to be infiltrated not legislated.

The only way to lower road fatalities in general is to stop people getting behind the wheel, who should never be there in the first place.

[Jamie XR6]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Much smarter would be an enforced Power/Weight ratio limit and actual proper driver training before giving someone their P's. Not the usual.. ah you can reverse park and change lanes - here you go, have fun!

And you are worried about P platers not being able to drive a turbo/V8?

This arguement (sorry discussion) would be even more heated. Ask anyone from Victoria what power to weight ratio bans mean. It means that even more cars would be off limits to P platers and that includes many N/A 6's

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ah! This thread is driving me crazy!

The issue is you cant go, "ok V8's are banned except for pre 1990." Its just to bloody hard to govern.

So you just go no V8's, end of storey. Its alot easy for everyone.

Stop making these remarks to M3's FFS; I know there are rich kids out there but lets be serious. The cars in question here are (while its not about the cars its is the driver in the end I know) imports and V8's which with a few mods can go pretty hard; they are relatievly cheap to purchase so therefore a P plater is going to go straight for them.

You will never stop idiots from being idiots; but you can atleast try and minimise the damage.

Straight six, fours, boxter, V6, V5, V10, V12 can all go hard too

I think this really will just mean more shitty cars driven by inexperienced drivers - incase you can't tell this is a BAD thing.

All the exteriour signs of a V8 and or turbo are usually easily removed, do we really want police spending time pulling over cars because they could have a V8 or turbo (every falcon and commodore hmm) and does this work in Victoria (power/weight)? HELL NO

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Steffo

E36 M3's aren't that expensive anymore. They're cheaper then a brand new BA XT. You don't need rich parents to buy you one anymore, middle income people can buy them. And there are MANY middle income parents who buy their kids cars, I know so many people like that. One guy even (and he totally does NOT deserve the car and drives it like a f**k), his dad (who's not a rich guy, runs a hot food takeaway shop thing in Central Station in Sydney.. from the Elizabeth Street entrance, to the left of that big uber long tunnel).. well, he bought his son a brand new 2001 WRX. That's about $45k...... and I know of many many many more examples.

And the parents then sook why there kid died. They died as soon as they gave them the keys to a WRX for crying out loud!

My best mate has parents that are very well off, and do you know what car he drove for his first year of P's; a 1960's 504 Peugoet! (sp?).

He now has a RS turbo liberty, but he learnt to be respectful in that little pug and he is a good responsible driver!

There are alot of stuff that needs to be fixed, including parents attitudes; but one step at a time; this is just a easy one.