FG wagon - what would it have been?

[Phildo]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

LOL, spot on... i haven't read a logical argument yet as to why a Diesel Mondeo wagon or Terri isnt a suitable option for fleets or taxi's....

Cost. Money. They are pretty good reasons. Right now, a BA or BF Falcon is by far the cheapest car to run as a taxi. I wouldn't even run an FG for another couple of years - taxi mechanics haven't had exposure to them yet, so won't have the experience with them (although they are pretty much the same as BF mechanically).

The Territory has been around for a while now; how many taxi Territories have you ever seen? There are more Camry and Prius taxis than there are Territories.

Besides, if running costs weren't such a factor then there would be heaps of Tarago taxis around - they would have luggage and passenger capacity (ie more than four passengers).

I've seen two Territory taxis in Perth - the orange one and the blue one. I had a conversation with a driver of the orange one a few years ago when the car first became a taxi. That car has a south-east restricted plate, meaning that it has to stay in the Armadale area. For those that don't know Perth, Armadale is one of the worst areas in Perth (especially for taxis). Let's just say that "local people" cause us significant drama in that area. There was a taxi stolen there back in March when the driver asked the two passengers for a deposit. They responded by bashing him and stealing the car.

Anyway, the driver was dumbfounded that the owner went for a Territory. Her point was that the car needs to be anonymous and not easily recognisable by certain problematic people. By having a car that stands out, then these people will be able to target that particular vehicle.

I can't recall the last time that I saw that vehicle, so it's very possible that the owner has given up and gone back to a Falcon. I would consider that to be the most likely possibility.

I see the blue one around Perth regularly; it is privately owned. I've not had the chance to speak with any of its drivers, so don't know the reasons why the owner chose a Territory for a taxi.

Do we have any actual taxi mechanics that want to comment in this thread? Jastel?

[Mr Hardware]

Well said Phildo, everything you've said is spot-on.

Also remember, Taxi Operators don't buy Fords, they buy Falcons.
If there's no more Falcon wagons, their thought process isn't going to be "what is the next best ford", their thought process is going to be "whats the next cheapest wagon to own and run". And I can tell you now, it ain't gonna be 2-tonne and it ain't gonna be european. We've already got some VW Passat wagons here in Bris and the current joke about them is one of them was crashed and had to wait 3 weeks for parts.
Now anyone who knows a thing about cabs will know that just to have them parked, they cost about a grand a week.
Current ideas for the next cab to follow after all the falcon wagons are exhausted centers around the possible success of the Hyundai i40 tourer diesel (just launched).

[JG34JA]

You are making great points Phildo. Private and second hand buyers also benefit from the taxi industry's philosophy of low cost running and easily obtainable parts.
Our family learned this the hard way when we arrived in Australia. Keeping a Renault wagon as it aged was a nightmare for parts. Similarly, our family ran a Mondeo in the 90's in rural Australia. When the exhaust went, there just wasn't a replacement available and so the local mechanics had to get creative. The result was what we joked as "Sports Exhaust".
I agree that in the absence of a Falcon wagon, the industry will look for the next lowest cost.
And lastly, if the AUD is to crash as a response to current EU debt problems and their impacts, expect parts to get very expensive, indeed.

[Phildo]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Well said Phildo, everything you've said is spot-on.

Thanks. 'Bout time reinforcements arrived...

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Also remember, Taxi Operators don't buy Fords, they buy Falcons.

Bingo. Almost no taxi operators would even know who won Bathurst, let alone actually watched any of it. It's not a brand loyalty thing, it's a money loyalty thing.

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

We've already got some VW Passat wagons here in Bris and the current joke about them is one of them was crashed and had to wait 3 weeks for parts.

Blimey. That's a disaster. Sure, it might cost the owner a grand a week, but it's cost the drivers three weeks income each. Getting good drivers is bloody hard at the moment, so you don't want to risk losing them to someone else.

My girlfriend bought a plate here in Perth back in April ($300,000). Her loan payment is $1,000 a week. Plus $135 to Swan Taxis. Plus about $90 a week in insurance. Then there is her house mortgage of $500 a week. She drives full time (usually seven nights per week). Three weeks off would take her a few months to recover from. Stuff that.

Waiting three weeks for parts? Not viable. Try three hours.

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Current ideas for the next cab to follow after all the falcon wagons are exhausted centers around the possible success of the Hyundai i40 tourer diesel (just launched).

Wow. That is horrific. That is the motoring equivalent of hooking up with and bonking the fattest, ugliest chick in the singles market. And then living with her for years afterwards. This is going to be shameful.

Remember years ago when Falcon wagons used to get chopped up at the back to carry wheelchair passengers? I wonder if that could eventuate with converting sedans into some sort of wagon?

[Brazen]

remember when the Territory was supposed to replace the Falcon wagon back in 2004? Well 6 years later they were still selling hundreds a month, even though it was old and out of date. Strong sales kept it going and going and going. There is a market there, maybe a conversion company could convert FG sedans to wagons for fleets and taxi operators?

[DENKO]

Originally Posted by EB92

image

If thats what it would of looked like, i would buy 1 in a heart beat!!

[flappist]

With these BA/BF taxis, what percentage were actually bought new from Ford dealers as opposed to ex government/commercial fleet car auctions?

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by flappist

With these BA/BF taxis, what percentage were actually bought new from Ford dealers as opposed to ex government/commercial fleet car auctions?

Exactly, building taxis during AU days never made Ford money, it kept the factory ticking over, but was not a great money spinner. Then when they dumped the taxi pack, cab owners waited for second hand falcons instead.

I remember riding in an AU cab around 2 years after BA launched, I asked the driver if he was going to update, he responded " not until this car gives me a reason to, it's already at half a mill and it's going great guns, why would I change?" And apparently that was the attitude with a lot of AU owners, they did not want to give them up.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Also remember, Taxi Operators don't buy Fords, they buy Falcons.
If there's no more Falcon wagons, their thought process isn't going to be "what is the next best ford", their thought process is going to be "whats the next cheapest wagon to own and run". .

Pretty sure that's the basis of the whole discussion, not what sedan they'll choose, on that basis again... Terri diesel and Mondeo diesel wagon are back on the radar...

I too would be interested to know what % of new car sales can be attributed to Taxi's or are taxi drivers buying at the same price point as most other LPG enthusiasts...?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

With these BA/BF taxis, what percentage were actually bought new from Ford dealers as opposed to ex government/commercial fleet car auctions?

exactly. taxi's don't support the new car industry so why should the new car industry care about them. had they bought their wagons from factory, there is a pretty good chance ford would still be making them.

[Road_Warrior]

I think its pretty clear that the main (if only) customer of the Falcon wagon in its latter years were fleets who appreciated the size of the load space, its carrying capacity and the availability of a model with low running costs (egas). Hazard to guess fleets would be the primary buyer of the Holden wagon as well.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Exactly, building taxis during AU days never made Ford money, it kept the factory ticking over, but was not a great money spinner. Then when they dumped the taxi pack, cab owners waited for second hand falcons instead.

Where has Ford ever said it never made them money? Of course it made them money, back when they were selling thousands of Falcons a month they had the luxury of being fussy, as the taxi-pack hurt Falcon's image. That was the primary reason Ford gave in dumping taxi-pack - it hurt Falcon's image. But of course another dumb Ford decision as the taxi operators could just buy second-hand anyway - which still hurt the image.

..meanwhile back on the ranch, September 2011 VFACTS Falcon 1748 sales - pathetic.

Yet half the members here think the gradual death of the Falcon is no way the
result of stupid, dumb, political, ego-driven and lazy decsions by management.

Ford boss "Im not jeopardising my quarterly bonus by spending money on local manufacturing or development to jutify Falcon production, that will only benefit the next guy and Im moving to Ford China next year, lets just cut the program"

Ford Forum member "Oooh how smart, another product dropped which was selling well or had the potential to be a big seller with an update or new design(points to some random irrelevant profit and loss statement which includes sales of imported vehicles and engineering work), Ford AU bosses are smart, every other big business and government in the world makes mistakes except for Ford AU."

[ebv8]

i hope oneday for use my idea, remember back in 1979 holden ditched the best car they ever made (HZ Kingswood) and bought in a sh!tbox commodore and it sold well (after they fixed it up to suit our roads) why don't ford bring back a smaller RWD car
aka: cortina(called something much better though)
use the 2.0 ecoboost (or NA) RWD and make a sedan, hatch/wagon and coupe and keep the simple falcon sedan and ute. they will still have the tradies and taxi's covered and will have an aussie car for the private market and fleets, make most parts interchange and then there is potential for a v8 midsized car from FPV, then holden will be scared.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Where has Ford ever said it never made them money? Of course it made them money, back when they were selling thousands of Falcons a month they had the luxury of being fussy, as the taxi-pack hurt Falcon's image. That was the primary reason Ford gave in dumping taxi-pack - it hurt Falcon's image. But of course another dumb Ford decision as the taxi operators could just buy second-hand anyway - which still hurt the image.

..meanwhile back on the ranch, September 2011 VFACTS Falcon 1748 sales - pathetic.

Yet half the members here think the gradual death of the Falcon is no way the
result of stupid, dumb, political, ego-driven and lazy decsions by management.

Ford boss "Im not jeopardising my quarterly bonus by spending money on local manufacturing or development to jutify Falcon production, that will only benefit the next guy and Im moving to Ford China next year, lets just cut the program"

Ford Forum member "Oooh how smart, another product dropped which was selling well or had the potential to be a big seller with an update or new design(points to some random irrelevant profit and loss statement which includes sales of imported vehicles and engineering work), Ford AU bosses are smart, every other big business and government in the world makes mistakes except for Ford AU."

Ridiculous.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ebv8

i hope oneday for use my idea, remember back in 1979 holden ditched the best car they ever made (HZ Kingswood) and bought in a sh!tbox commodore and it sold well (after they fixed it up to suit our roads) why don't ford bring back a smaller RWD car
aka: cortina(called something much better though)
use the 2.0 ecoboost (or NA) RWD and make a sedan, hatch/wagon and coupe and keep the simple falcon sedan and ute. they will still have the tradies and taxi's covered and will have an aussie car for the private market and fleets, make most parts interchange and then there is potential for a v8 midsized car from FPV, then holden will be scared.

Downsizing to the Commodore nearly killed Holden, cause its fuel economy was worse than the bigger Falcon.

Holden had to be bailed out by GM around 85/86, otherwise they would have gone bankrupt.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head.
Fantastic wagon, by the way. Is there a link to a thread on it's build?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11331318 See if this works?

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by Gothefalcon

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11331318 See if this works?

Yep.. seems to work !

[JG34JA]

Oh. My. Goodness. Will have to read that one in detail when I get a bit more time. That's exactly the wagon-nicheness (TM) that Ford could do with a little hit of. My compliments: what an achievement.

[JG34JA]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Where has Ford ever said it never made them money? Of course it made them money, back when they were selling thousands of Falcons a month they had the luxury of being fussy, as the taxi-pack hurt Falcon's image. That was the primary reason Ford gave in dumping taxi-pack - it hurt Falcon's image. But of course another dumb Ford decision as the taxi operators could just buy second-hand anyway - which still hurt the image.

..meanwhile back on the ranch, September 2011 VFACTS Falcon 1748 sales - pathetic.

Yet half the members here think the gradual death of the Falcon is no way the
result of stupid, dumb, political, ego-driven and lazy decsions by management.

Ford boss "Im not jeopardising my quarterly bonus by spending money on local manufacturing or development to jutify Falcon production, that will only benefit the next guy and Im moving to Ford China next year, lets just cut the program"

Ford Forum member "Oooh how smart, another product dropped which was selling well or had the potential to be a big seller with an update or new design(points to some random irrelevant profit and loss statement which includes sales of imported vehicles and engineering work), Ford AU bosses are smart, every other big business and government in the world makes mistakes except for Ford AU."

I can certainly see Ford firing back with new technology and quite a bit of development in the Falcon, I just miss the bodystyle that adds 10% volume or so. Or maybe it doesn't, and what I really want is a diesel Mondeo...

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by JG34JA

Oh. My. Goodness. Will have to read that one in detail when I get a bit more time. That's exactly the wagon-nicheness (TM) that Ford could do with a little hit of. My compliments: what an achievement.

Absolutely !! (But then... I would agree !!! Ha ha !!)

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Where has Ford ever said it never made them money? Of course it made them money, back when they were selling thousands of Falcons a month they had the luxury of being fussy, as the taxi-pack hurt Falcon's image. That was the primary reason Ford gave in dumping taxi-pack - it hurt Falcon's image. But of course another dumb Ford decision as the taxi operators could just buy second-hand anyway - which still hurt the image.

Matter of opinion really, but I cannot imagine the taxi operators being willing to pay RRP.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by Brazen

um yeah, and a 2 tonne suv or a European built fwd are great substitutes for a Falcon taxi...

I have heard there are Skŏda Superb's and VW Passat Wagons (both in diesel) in service as Taxi's around the place... Be interesting to see how they go... As a frequent user of taxi's, I know I would much rather prefer the Superb/Passat/Mondeo than another rattling itself to bits BF/FG


Also, above, the I40 diesel tourer sounds interesting... Saw one out on the road the other day, and if there is something that the koreans are good at these days, is making there cars well. unlike some of all of our local manufacturers

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

I have heard there are Skŏda Superb's and VW Passat Wagons (both in diesel) in service as Taxi's around the place... Be interesting to see how they go... As a frequent user of taxi's, I know I would much rather prefer the Superb/Passat/Mondeo than another rattling itself to bits BF/FG


Also, above, the I40 diesel tourer sounds interesting... Saw one out on the road the other day, and if there is something that the koreans are good at these days, is making there cars well. unlike some of all of our local manufacturers

I have to say... I've spent some time overseas working... catching cabs is the norm to get around.... and I've ridden in Mercs, Beemers, Volksys, Tojos,all manner of GM & Ford stuff... and more... it doesn't matter where you go... ALL taxis turn into whiny ratly s&%tboxes... because ALL taxi companies around the world are the same... They just drive em till they drop... spend as little as they can on a fast fix to get the cab mobile again (over & over)... and drive it till it finally dies! No one builds a car that can put up with drunk mindas as often as Taxis do !

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by flappist

With these BA/BF taxis, what percentage were actually bought new from Ford dealers as opposed to ex government/commercial fleet car auctions?

In essence, govco flets turned over a lot of Falcons to the taxis, Govco got guaranteed sales and taxis an absolute bargain.

Maybe that's what's wrong today, too many people holding out for highly discounted XR6s
or worse, just buying used FGs because they look like the new ones and only cost 20 grand..

I don't know how a manufacturer breaks that cycle, maybe it begins with fixing up the XT and G6,
putting them to work in fleets and start reserving XR6 as a higher series with better interiors,
start asking more money and being prepared to walk away from discounting, but would Holden follow?

Actually, I recall you advocating Falcons with better interiors and Ford asking higher prices,
gotta say that might be part of a plan going forward, depending on marketing and research....

[fmc351]

Manufacturers cant exactly ignore second hand buyers, as ease of resale, and resale value is one thing any new buyer is going to consider when buying.

[v0dka]

Originally Posted by Phildo

There are currently about 2,000 taxis in Perth. I am aware of two Territories. I see the blue one around regularly, but haven't seen the orange one for quite some time (it's based in Armadale). It might be that the owner has gone back to Falcon. There is a smal handful of VE Commodores, but only the one VE Commodore wagon (taxi 354, it hangs around Fremantle most of the time).

Personally, I'll stick with a Falcon wagon as long as I can, but will ultimately have to switch to either Falcon sedan or Commodore wagon. As much as I hate my options, it's probably going to be Falcon sedan. The decision will depend on where there is enough specific demand for a wagon. I need to be able to turn up at a workshop, wait an hour or so in the queue, get the car fixed in half an hour to an hour and then be back on the road again. Falcon is the only option that will give me that.

Yeah there aren't many territory taxis around Perth. You do see some interesting one-offs though. There's a Chrysler voyager van, a Magna (!) peak period, and an iMax or two around. There's a few VZ wagons around and a handful of VE sedans, but I haven't seen the VE wagon you speak of. Terrible choice for a wagon really, it's tiny! Interestingly I saw what is probably the last remaining AUIII taxi at Hillarys the other day (it was peak period obviously).

Oh and that wagon you saw definitely wasn't 354. 354 is a BFII Futura Sedan and hangs around Joondalup way.

Cheers,

George (Fellow Perth Cabbie)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

remember when the Territory was supposed to replace the Falcon wagon back in 2004? Well 6 years later they were still selling hundreds a month, even though it was old and out of date. Strong sales kept it going and going and going. There is a market there, maybe a conversion company could convert FG sedans to wagons for fleets and taxi operators?

When sales were stopped, they were under 400/mth and mostly to Telstra at huge discounts.
Ford convinced itself not spend to money on a replacement and then convinced itself to just
import Mondeo Stationwagon and then tried to convince everyone else that was a good idea.

But only the accountants were convinced......

The plan would have had more legs if Ford had built Mondeo hatch and S/W locally......

[prydey]

what if ford spent half a billion developing a new wagon only to have it continue to sell at a few hundred a month?

its easy to sit back on a forum and say there is a market when you don't have to fork out mega dollars to test your theory.

where did all the territory customers come from? is it possible fords info showed them that private buyers HAD migrated to territory and mondeo??

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

When sales were stopped, they were under 400/mth and mostly to Telstra at huge discounts.
Ford convinced itself not spend to money on a replacement and then convinced itself to just
import Mondeo Stationwagon and then tried to convince everyone else that was a good idea.

But only the accountants were convinced......

The plan would have had more legs if Ford had built Mondeo hatch and S/W locally......

I'm not sure how big the discounts were to Telstra, it is the most capable vehicle for their needs. Its the rental customers which are cut-throat and play Holden, Toyota and Ford against each other. Then dump the stock 6 months later which kills resale. Telstra is probably an ideal customer in comparison.

Speaking of Telstra, saw a new fully marked Telstra Holden Sportwagon loaded up with gear and the heavy duty ladder racks in Adelaide. They are probably trialing them to replace some of the Falcons. Seemed to be handling the weight and the cargo really well. Didnt have the LPG Falcon spare tyre in the cargo area too which probably helps space.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Telstra have started getting Mondeo wagons too...