5 young men killed in high speed crash.

[left]

Originally Posted by saber

I would have a guess and say more then 140kph.

For anybody who has not driven down that section of the road, the pictures don't show the incline of the section of road before the crash.

Basically from South Morang, you turn left on Plenty Rd doing 80kph (the speed limit for that section) past the South Morang library and up a slight hill. From the top of the hill, its a straight road downhill, past Childs road. The road levels off a hundred of so metres before the start of the Plenty Road trams.

At the top of the hill, doing 80, you can roll (ie no foot on accel pedal) towards the Childs road intersection and easily pick up 20-30k. If they were weaving through traffic, they could potentially have been doing more than 140 before they lost control.

I personally don't know the occupants, but I know several people who did. Condolances to all.

I think you're confusing yourself. There's no incline on Plenty Road from the library down to Childs Road; it's down hill (that's a decline). And in any event they were travelling in the oppiste direction i.e.e UP hill toward South Morang. The only way they were able to reach those speeds was by flooring it.

I don't know why excuses are being made for this kind of behaviour. You could do 200 along that road if you wanted to but that's hardly the point. There's a speed limit for a reason. It's not a bloody racetrack.

[ebxr8240]

Nothing is going to stop this sort of stupidity..
But look out doing 10 kph over now, you'll be branded a hoon !!!

[LTDHO]

The government will do nothing other than the usual ‘knee jerk’ reaction. So more kids will die as everyone watches.

It is way to easy to get a licence then jump into a fast car. Neither are solely responsible for these deaths.

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

[mmhmm]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

The government will do nothing other than the usual ‘knee jerk’ reaction. So more kids will die as everyone watches.

It is way to easy to get a licence then jump into a fast car. Neither are solely responsible for these deaths.

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

...... now thats the kind of crap we need more of... cap our cars when there should be more parental control yes..good stuff we need a new bill passed for this one..

[ltd]

Sad for everyone involved, but unfortunately, I think the driver was on borrowed time judging by the alleged record he had. Completely stupid and selfish actions of one with scant regard for his passengers. Total lunacy.

[GS608]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

The government will do nothing other than the usual ‘knee jerk’ reaction. So more kids will die as everyone watches.

It is way to easy to get a licence then jump into a fast car. Neither are solely responsible for these deaths.

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

what difference would that have made there? at 120 they would still all be dead. speed caps aren't the answer either.

[J.C.]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

I don't think this will solve anything. It is not the car that is the problem but the person driving it that causes these accidents to happen. One can still die in an accident with the car limited to a certain speed. Then what?

On another note, thanks to those who have post the you tube clips. As a supervisor, I showed some of my boys two of the clips. The silence I got out of them during the viewing was deafening. They exited the room without saying a word.
Just goes to show we take living and breathing for granted and most times we give little thought to the concequences of our actions.

[Joshmcmillan]

At least they didn't hit another car is all I can say. If people could Speed without the risk of harming anyone else, well I guess that's their choice to risk their own lives. But NO ONE has the right to speed and risk OTHER people's lives.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

The government will do nothing other than the usual ‘knee jerk’ reaction. So more kids will die as everyone watches.

It is way to easy to get a licence then jump into a fast car. Neither are solely responsible for these deaths.

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

including this one?
VVVVVVVVVV
LTDHO by me
361rwkw power by CVE Performance

[balthazarr]

Haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread yet, so apologies if it's already been covered, and I'll probably get flamed for this opinion...

I don't pretend to have the answer to stopping this sort of behaviour. IMHO, part of the problem is that TAC/Police etc. are losing credibility with their obsessive campaign against speeding. They've systematically spent the last few years trying to basically equate driving 5km/h over the limit with the sort of behaviour that led to this unfortunately accident.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense can see that driving at 85km/h and driving at 140+km/h in an 80 zone is not anywhere near the same, yet the authorities have spent a great deal of time, energy and money trying to convince us all that it is.

It's hard enough to get teenagers to listen to someone in authority - everyone knows that teenagers think that 1) they know it all and 2) they're invincible.

[saber]

Originally Posted by left

I think you're confusing yourself. There's no incline on Plenty Road from the library down to Childs Road; it's down hill (that's a decline). And in any event they were travelling in the oppiste direction i.e.e UP hill toward South Morang. The only way they were able to reach those speeds was by flooring it.

Oops your right, should have said decline not incline.

EDIT: I heard on the news this morning that a P-plater was clocked doing 160 in a 70 zone, in Reservoir! (which for those who don’t know, is a couple of suburbs down from the accident).
I would have a guess and say that speed was clocked on Plenty road as well!

[Joshmcmillan]

Originally Posted by 84ltd

I'm only 22, never lost a point on my license never and the only time i've been stopped by the cops was at a booze bus on 2 seperate occassions. Now my driving is seen as slow by my mates because i follow the speed limit. Just the other night i was apparently uptight because i wouldn't drive until all seatbelts were on. The sort of attitude i've put up with through trade school for having a clean driving record to me is laughable. For some reason it's cool to lose your license. :

Keep it up mate.. good work...
It does seem like there is at least some people my age that think speeding is stupid, but there is also a lot that think it is cool... I've been told I drive like a granny for going the speed limit too, and to top it off most of the people that go out speeding drive the likes of old Commodore's and little hatchbacks etc.... I've got the most powerful car out of anyone in my year yet I'm the only one of few that go the speed limit?

[kezzer]

Originally Posted by dave93761

As a start, all young people should be made to watch this video:

In fact, I say to all of you, please watch this video today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2mf8DtWWd8

They should be made to watch it when they go for their L's, when they get their P's, and it should be a regular on TV for me - at the end of the dad, it's the shock value that makes these things so effective. If it only saves one person for being killed, isn't that still worth it??

Thanks mate, I needed that, really did.

[kyro_02]

Originally Posted by saber

I would have a guess and say more then 140kph.

For anybody who has not driven down that section of the road, the pictures don't show the incline of the section of road before the crash.

Basically from South Morang, you turn left on Plenty Rd doing 80kph (the speed limit for that section) past the South Morang library and up a slight hill. From the top of the hill, its a straight road downhill, past Childs road. The road levels off a hundred of so metres before the start of the Plenty Road trams.

from the pics, it looks like it was crossing the intersection of childs rd heading towards south morang, and the accident happened just after the bus stop on the left

i know this section of road, and when it rains,... the road is like ice

[Halfmo Rocks]

too right...didn't think that would affect me...but it did.

i'm glad there was plenty of bits related to just not paying attention, not just speeding or drinking accidents.

good call on that vid

[seduced_xr]

Originally Posted by Joshmcmillan

Keep it up mate.. good work...
It does seem like there is at least some people my age that think speeding is stupid, but there is also a lot that think it is cool... I've been told I drive like a granny for going the speed limit too, and to top it off most of the people that go out speeding drive the likes of old Commodore's and little hatchbacks etc.... I've got the most powerful car out of anyone in my year yet I'm the only one of few that go the speed limit?

so im not the only one. Red P plates. XR6 falcon and im known as the granny driver of the group, always taking crap about it and tbh i dont really care. go the granny drivers

[ch33z1l]

Those youtube vids really send a shockwave to most people who watch. The problem is, the only time they are seen, is at home on the TV. Id like to see some sort of roadside advertising with this type of footage, although the potential to become a distraction is quite high. Perhaps some billboards in known speeding/hoon areas. Some images of the families effected cycling through every few minutes.

[04redxr8]

There are some really good posts in this thread that I would like to add to.

Firstly my condolences to the families of these young people. When you look at all the facts emerging from this act of stupidity, you realise it was fortunate that no other people were injured or killed. Secondly, the passengers played their own part in this incident. The car was overloaded, and to make it worse passengers were climbing out of the windows. This is shifting 80 odd kgs of weight around a car that is already not at its best handling situation. (try jerking your car around a racetrack and upsetting its weight balance). Not to mention the obvious distraction it would have caused for the driver. Even if he was egging them on, he would have been turning to watch. There are so many things we know that condemn the behaviour as complete and utter stupidity. There are also many things we probably don't know.

Now, I have done some really stupid things in cars as teenager, mostly while driving on my own, and when no other cars have been around. I have driven a car that was completly overload, on private property, but I didn't exceed 30kph. At the time the responsibilty to my passengers was mostly on my mind even though we only travelled about 2-300 mtrs. By the time I was 20, and had lost a mate to speeding, I had changed my whole attitude towards cars and driving. If someone was doing something unsafe or stupid, I would demand to be let out of the car. (Did this twice).

As far as education goes, I have a slightly different believe in it. I actually believe that our education system and certain legislation is to blame. Many years ago, the nosy do-gooders that are ruining our society and way of life had a win. It started with the removal of the cane from our schools, and then proceeded to the banning of parents smacking their own children. Subsequently, schools began teaching students that their parents have no right to smack or discipline them. The flow on effect has been one that we are constantly confronted with in the media. Teenagers out of control, doing whatever they want, when they want, with no regard for the consequences of their own actions. They no have respect for authority, as they develop a mentality, that no-one can touch them. I fine is viewed as a medal of honour, as they know that and loss of license is the extent of what may happen.

Now, I am not saying that all of our young generation are like this, so please don't get offended if you don't fall into this category. There is however alot that are like this, and they are the ones who are ruining it for the others. It is unfortunate that we have this softly-soflty approach to discipline. Starting from an early age it does nothing but reinforce that there is no accountability for actions, and that nobody is responsible for what has been done. This is something that has crept into life in general. Even the older generation that were taught responsibility and accountability seem to try and pass the buck. Our politicians have made careers out of it.

I do agree that education would be paramount. But, education about life, actions, consequence and accountablity would need to be on that agenda. Also, I read with great delight, that there are parents who take the time to explain things to their children about things that are happening in the world. I think this is a major key. Too many parents seem to leave these talks up to schools, thinking that is all the education they will need. Kids being kids will tend to prefer to learn from those that are closest to them. When the parents dont make the time, usually the education comes from friends, and usually the first lessons are the wrong ones.

Furthermore, I think the Police department has had its hands tied behind its back. When I was a teenager, we did get into a fair bit of trouble. The thing we feared most when we were caught, wasn't going to court (a joke even back then), but rather the potential beating from the police. (Remember the Yellow Pages)? I fully support that know in hindsight. We had a greater respect for Police and Authority back then., and if we were caught, we always fell silent, and spoke to them with the utmost respect. Something that doesn't occur these days.

Sorry for the long post, but as a father of two young children (4yrs, and 16 mths), its something I think alot about. I also think that the attitudes that cause these sort of things start a lot earlier than when a drivers license is obtained. I also believe that children grow up mimicking their parents behaviour. Children see bad behaviour and bad attitudes and they take these as acceptible. Mum and Dad do it, why can't I? Mum and Dad do 20k's over, I'll do 40. Children see evrything.

The suggestions are wishful thinking. The system how it is now is too far out of control, and so wrong that, none of our Pollies would ever have the brains or balls to change it.

Cheers
Ned

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by kezzer

Thanks mate, I needed that, really did.

Originally Posted by Adam Rocks

too right...didn't think that would affect me...but it did.

i'm glad there was plenty of bits related to just not paying attention, not just speeding or drinking accidents.

good call on that vid

I'm glad you guys got something out of watching it.....everyone needs to be reminded that this could happen to us at anytime...

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

I have to say I disagree, especially with the police cars bit...

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Without question concequences.... i was the "voice of reason" in my social group... Not every 18 y/o is reckless....

Mate I know exactly what you are talking about because I was too. I did get to the point that I was left out of things because I didn't pop pills do speed or drive erratically. Many years later during some reunions my then mates (some are really just acquaintances now) cannot believe how smart I was then, but I can tell them that now that I was actually scared but I could not tell them then.

Originally Posted by 84ltd

I'm only 22, never lost a point on my license never and the only time i've been stopped by the cops was at a booze bus on 2 seperate occassions. Now my driving is seen as slow by my mates because i follow the speed limit. Just the other night i was apparently uptight because i wouldn't drive until all seatbelts were on. The sort of attitude i've put up with through trade school for having a clean driving record to me is laughable. For some reason it's cool to lose your license. :

It is better to be considered slow and uptight and "alive" than fast and furious (read dangerous) and ultimately end up "dead". You have my respect, keep up the good work.

Originally Posted by Sizey

Don't think I would call an XR6 high powered. It has some amount of power but not compared to other vehicles on the road. It just comes back to the old saying of tame the driver NOT the vehicle. But as has been said, how we do this is baffling!

We are losing the plot. These cars are taxi cabs in another form. I had a mate that had minis when we were young. These were damn quick for something under 1000 cc in those days. How he managed to get through his teen age life still today amazes me. The fact that he later owned an HQ 308 Monaro street car that was good for 14 secs flat at AIR (early 80's) makes it more incredible to me.

Stop blaming the car, start blaming the driver. If Camry's were the absolutely only car you could buy then guess what, they would be driving these in the same manor. Just because they are not the choice of the "HOON" driver, it doesn't mean they are any safer when driven at speeds like this either.

Originally Posted by Mark351

On Triple M this morning they mentioned 3 P platers were done for speeding within 10k's of the crash site last night including one who was clocked at 165kph in a 70 zone. Crazy!

Well there you go. It is obvious that a change in attitudes needs to happen and not a change in the law. This needs to start with the passengers. (I wish I had the courage when I was younger though)

When I was young smoking was cool and I smoked for ten years until I realised it was . This decision to quit coincided with my 26th year on the face of this planet, the same time experts say you brain matures. Coincidence, perhaps.

My son is 16 this month and will be eligible for his learner's permit in 2 weeks. He hates smoking and so do all of his mates, In fact he does not know very many kids his age that do smoke. This was unheard of when I was his age. Somehow attudes have changed over the years. What actually took place to make this a reality? It would be good to see this same type of conditioning apply to young drivers by their peers now as well.

Originally Posted by The Snout

What's a 15yo girl doing out at 2am anyway.

Astounding and quite rightly worth asking.

Originally Posted by ltd

Sad for everyone involved, but unfortunately, I think the driver was on borrowed time judging by the alleged record he had. Completely stupid and selfish actions of one with scant regard for his passengers. Total lunacy.

"Darwin's natural selection" at work. Were the passengers on borrowed time too as well??? No seat belt for at least one of them and reports of hanging out of the windows and yelling while they were travalling at high speeds can only encourage the driver for the worse. Who knows.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The police cant be everywhere all the time, this happened at 2am.
These idiots just try to out run the police anyway, they see it as a game.
We'll probably find out the driver was outside of his passenger restrictions and car power restrictions too...
No amount of rules, training, camera's etc will stop this, only parental/peer/community pressure will.

Well said! To stop this sort of behavior we all need to chip in and I think the most important piece of the puzzle of keeping kids in line is parenting. I was taught by my parents to respect police and the law.

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by ch33z1l

Those youtube vids really send a shockwave to most people who watch. The problem is, the only time they are seen, is at home on the TV.

Some petrol stations now have little TV monitors in the pumps so you can watch while you fill up - this would be a great place to have a video such as the one I linked to from the TAC - it may have a little more impact on drivers as they are still out on the road instead of watching from the comforts of home...

Originally Posted by ch33z1l

Id like to see some sort of roadside advertising with this type of footage, although the potential to become a distraction is quite high.

We already do - I can only speak for Victoria but we have giant TAC billboards on freeways etc....

Originally Posted by ch33z1l

Perhaps some billboards in known speeding/hoon areas. Some images of the families affected cycling through every few minutes.

Problem is, these drivers would be distracted by those rotating images and then have an accident....

I think for this particular section of road, given that it's grabbed a whole lot of attention, they should put up a giant billboard with a couple of the pictures of the crash, reminding everyone what happened at that very spot....months and years from now, it may jog peoples memory and spook them out of speeding down that road...

Of course, the problem then will be all the new P platers who didn't take much notice of what happened yesterday......and here we go again!!!

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Well said! To stop this sort of behavior we all need to chip in and I think the most important piece of the puzzle of keeping kids in line is parenting. I was taught by my parents to respect police and the law.

Pretty sure the majority of resposible Australian parents teach the same things.....as per usual it's the minority who screw it up for all of us....

[exactly]

my condolences to the families first of all. as a father of two beutifull girls one of 10 the other of 15 i two am a concerned father as they will soon be sitting behind a steering wheel or in a car as a passenger. i only hope that the father who allowed his son to buy an xr6 as his first car has now relised that he wasnt right to do so .or the bank that said yes to the finance are now seeing as well or the garintor for the loan ?????????????? your all have to answer for the stupidity of loose of these young lives . 4 cyl non turbo non supercharged non modiffed cars for p plates full stop no ifs no buts they cant drive your f%^$ing xr6 xr8 ss 4ltr what ever it might be .i have all ready started to educate my girls on this and it rearly does start with us parents . so guys i know a lot of you have a lot of nice cars you all play with and adore some with young boys you are teaching all the under the son stuff .one of the sons might come to my door to pick up my daughter he better have his head on straight when it comes to this becasuse if it ant and happens ill look for heads .

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Why are cars in Australia capable of reaching speeds of 160kph?
Why does the speedo show a top speed of 260kph?

All new cars should be capped at 120kph, including in NT!
No option to ‘edit’ the ECU to go faster. This is to include police cars.

I totally agree with your first two lines, i often wonder the same myself considering there is no where in this country that those speeds are legal.

The next two lines im not sure about.
capping this particular vehicle wouldnt have made much if any difference, however, reading the thread on GPS based speed monitoring im wondering if it may lead to the solution.

I dont know if it would be possible, but perhaps a system where all new vehicles must have a speed capping device fitted which is GPS controlled and varies dependin on the speed zone your in.
For example a max 0f
60k in a 50 zone
70 in 60 zones
90 in 80 zones
115 in 100 zones
and 125 in 110 zones.

These speeds allow for overtaking etc. but wont allow excessive speeds in residential areas.

Obviously this will only work for vehicles with an ecu, but its a start.

[UNR8D]

The Herald Sun can confirm Steven Johnstone was also to face court on failing to comply with a court imposed community based order handed down to him last year.

don't think any new LAWS/REGULATIONS are really going to stop someone who clearly doesn't have any self respect or basic understanding, or chooses to just not follow any laws in the first place.

Devastated relatives and senior police are at a loss to explain why five young men killed in a horror smash were travelling at speeds of at least 140kmh and why the "speed kills" message did not get through to some young people.

ffs media get it right, is it 120-140 or 180? I've heard all 3 and anywhere in between, how about reporting it when the accident investigation squad has ascertained what SPEED he really was doing.

It is believed that some members of the group in the car had earlier been involved in a confrontation at a local party and may have still been highly agitated.

so other factors of distraction/inattention would have been a major contributor as well?

Assistant Commissioner Tim Cartwright said the car was being driven at about 140 kmh, which he described as "just crazy."

what did they get them on a speedcamera or lidar?.. I'm interested how he estimated this.

Relatives curse speed for taking son who 'liked fast cars'

don't let the truth get in the way of a good story hey.....

and as for the pics, I do understand it would have been nasty, but taking pics after the paramedics/firies have used the jaws of life on the car and claiming it to be the result of the accident is stretching it a fair bit.

There are six young people on board- five have died instantly. It leaves us with a girl who's survived serious injuries, but she's quite stable," he said

truly is a tragic ending, and condolences to the families involved... more importantly I really wish the young girl a quick recovery.

[Dave_Obsession]

Originally Posted by exactly

First of all, my condolences to the families.
As a father of two beautiful girls (one 10, the other 15), I too am concerned as a father that they will soon be sitting behind a steering wheel or in a car as a passenger.
I only hope that the father who allowed his son to buy an XR6 as his first car has now realised that he wasn't right to do so - or the bank that said yes to the finance are now seeing that as well or the guarantor for the loan - You all have to answer for the stupidity of the loss of these young lives.

4 cylinder, non-turbo, non-supercharged, non-modified cars for P-platers full stop. No ifs, no buts, they cant drive your f%^$ing XR6 or XR8 or SS or 4ltr what ever it might be.

I have already started to educate my girls on this and it rearly does start with us parents.

So guys i know a lot of you have a lot of nice cars you all play with and adore - some of you with young boys are teaching them 'under the son' stuff (??).

One of these sons might come to my door to pick up my daughter one day - he'd better have his head on straight when it comes to this, because if it ain't and something happens, I'll be looking for heads.

Consider that translated.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by UNR8D

don't think any new LAWS/REGULATIONS are really going to stop someone who clearly doesn't have any self respect or basic understanding, or chooses to just not follow any laws in the first place.




ffs media get it right, is it 120-140 or 180? I've heard all 3 and anywhere in between, how about reporting it when the accident investigation squad has ascertained what SPEED he really was doing.


so other factors of distraction/inattention would have been a major contributor as well?


what did they get them on a speedcamera or lidar?.. I'm interested how he estimated this.



don't let the truth get in the way of a good story hey.....

and as for the pics, I do understand it would have been nasty, but taking pics after the paramedics/firies have used the jaws of life on the car and claiming it to be the result of the accident is stretching it a fair bit.



truly is a tragic ending, and condolences to the families involved... more importantly I really wish the young girl a quick recovery.

Why nit pick? you're totally missing the whole point.....

[mik]

Originally Posted by exactly

my condolences to the families first of all. as a father of two beutifull girls one of 10 the other of 15 i two am a concerned father as they will soon be sitting behind a steering wheel or in a car as a passenger. i only hope that the father who allowed his son to buy an xr6 as his first car has now relised that he wasnt right to do so .or the bank that said yes to the finance are now seeing as well or the garintor for the loan ?????????????? your all have to answer for the stupidity of loose of these young lives . 4 cyl non turbo non supercharged non modiffed cars for p plates full stop no ifs no buts they cant drive your f%^$ing xr6 xr8 ss 4ltr what ever it might be .i have all ready started to educate my girls on this and it rearly does start with us parents . so guys i know a lot of you have a lot of nice cars you all play with and adore some with young boys you are teaching all the under the son stuff .one of the sons might come to my door to pick up my daughter he better have his head on straight when it comes to this becasuse if it ant and happens ill look for heads .

i think your logic is flawed, blameing dad for letting the driver have an xr6 is just wrong imo, this could have happened in proton or a pulsar or a 73 corona.

[alter_EGOXR]

it can happen in any car...the XR6 is perhaps one of the more high powered cars a P-plater can drive but the truth is even a honda civic can reach speeds of 140km/h....majority of us P-platers are responsible, putting laws on P-platers such as not being able to drive high powered vehicles, i think is unfair...For one, I drive like a granny because i luv my car and i take care of it, why should I not be allowed to drive a car due to someone elses irresponsibility. I think laws should be alot tougher for repeat offenders, supposdly the driver of that vehicle was done for speeding before. Sure we got the hoon legislation but how about introduce something like, cancel the repeat offenders licence. They would then need to start all over again, doing their Ls and extra driving hours. When it comes to the Ps test the driving assesor should have information on their previous driving record and thus be very strict when he or she is doing their test again.