Future Australian Manufacturing possibilities

[FalconXV]

I wanted to open this therad to discuss any potential, small-scale or otherwise Australian startup opportunities.

It's no secret that our market is very hostile to a potential local start-up; given we don't have the tariff protection, and as of last year, subsidies of foreign countries.
Alot of the suppliers who are now scrambling for survival have changed their business models, and started pursuing overseas business, namely Futuris supplying seatbacks to Tesla and PWR supplying radiators to Porsche, for the extremely advanced 918 Spyder.
That is evidence of how adverse conditions have actually brought out the most innovative side of the Australian automotive world, and it demonstrates we have some of the most clever and passionate automotive thinkers in the world.

http://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news...adelaide-31135

Then I read this startup company is planning small-scale manufacturing in Holden's factory, which could use existing suppliers.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/339479/y...m-2019-report/

Gordon Murrary's T-25/T-27 and i-Stream manufacturing could be adopted very cheaply by a local startup.

And then there's the advent of 3-D printing which is starting.

(Imagine a 3D-printed mining truck/ute with a diesel version of the Barra!)

Whatever happens now, the current trend away from manufacturing has forced people in the industry to become innovative. It's very clear that alot of people are still passionate enough in this country for something to happen. Not on the scale of the big players maybe, but I think it would be foolish to think we won't have any indigenous creations going forward.

Now we need government policies to allow free use of safety labs, emissions labs and test tracks, to make it easier. The vacuum left by the larger scale manufacturing could be filled by other sectors of advanced manufacturing.

I don't buy the argument about market fragmentation, otherwise cars like Corolla, Mazda3 etc wouldn't have the dominance they have in the top 10 still.

I don't care if anyone supports my idea or not, I know most things are being contracted to China ( while they work in detrimental conditions), but theres still enough passion and desire for something to hatch here in the future.
I only hope the next election brings about protection for the supplier network, so they can expand their business into other industries and keep alive- I'd rather see them subsidised than overseas carmakers anyway.

It would take a paradigm shift from the current government, who clearly doesn't want us to innovate or manufacture in this country.
Thoughts?

[AUwindsor]

All sides of government are the same. Watch a cartoon instead.. won't make any difference.

[Brazen]

Small scale, niche vehicles and high quality.

I think something like a modern interpretation of a 70 series Lanadcruiser would do well being locally designed and built.

Word on the street Malcolm Turnbull when he met with Elon Musk a few weeks back in the US flagged the idea of building Teslas in the Toyota plant in Melbourne if he were to become PM.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by AUwindsor

All sides of government are the same. Watch a cartoon instead.. won't make any difference.

No they aren't. Labor had proposed funding to keep Holden open until 2022. It was in cement, then Liberal ripped the funding out from underneath and has pledged nothing to keep the supplier industry from imploding.
Even if that was true, maybe there is enough passion and a few technology breakthoughs like I mentioned to not require any government funding (though some regulatory changes would be most effective, without upsetting indignant taxpayers). If Labor gets in, at least the suppliers can maybe be saved, they have demonstrated lately that they deserve to be rescued. More than GM or Ford anyhow.

Originally Posted by Brazen

Small scale, niche vehicles and high quality.

I think something like a modern interpretation of a 70 series Lanadcruiser would do well being locally designed and built.

Word on the street Malcolm Turnbull when he met with Elon Musk a few weeks back in the US flagged the idea of building Teslas in the Toyota plant in Melbourne if he were to become PM.

That would be amazing. We have such a vast pool of technology that has been researched and developed, like EVE (also known as Axiflux) and Blade. Also the UNSW Sunswift team are world-pioneers of solar cars that can take passengers. Carbon Revolution of Geelong makes carbon fibre wheels for the Shelby Mustang GT350R, and the aftermarket.
All those examples fly in the face of doubters as it is. I think we may see more examples soon.

[turbo4]

hopefully the JOSS supercar becomes successful.
http://www.joss.com.au/#!home/mainPage

[danzvtil]

Yeah, if Turnbull spoke to Musk, then he MUST be willing to build a factory here to make 1000 cars a year tops.....not quite sure if that would work.

[FalconXV]

Considering we already have our own EV startups: EV Engineering /Axiflux and Blade, but if the government snubbed GMH for BMW as their federal transport, what hope do they have... Like I said, too much talent is going to waste. We could have been at the vanguard at the industry- I believe there's a slim chance we still could be if government or its attitude changes. Not trying to push an agenda, just being a True Believer for our beleaguered industry.

[Sprintey]

A good thread, because it's really at the heart of the matter. Do you want to make things in this country? Do you have to have manufacturing to be an OECD top 20 economy? Do you want a future path for your children in design, engineering or manufacturing to be available locally?

1) Local ownership
2) Local Capital
3) Play our niche.

It's been no help to be involved in 'One Ford' - as this policy directed by Dearborn has put an end to a manufacturer open since 1925. And impeded it from exporting where it wanted, when it wanted. At the same time, it allowed Brazil-only models to be continued there while Ford Australia was sacrificed.

When you don't have control over your enterprise, others can make decisions for you. For example, the demise of the Commodore platform was, in the end, decided upon by a German FWD engineer.

I think we Aussies do utes very well. Others around the world are amazed by them, and wonder why they can't get anything like that. A proper coupe-utility, comfort of sedan and practicality of utility, something definitely separate from a 'pick up' or 'dual cab'.

Start there with an auto body builder, engineers, designers and hopefully keep some mechanical tooling as well. But most importantly, keep it locally owned by local Capital that supports the idea of manufacturing here. It works for the Germans...

Then export it wherever our FTA's can take it.

PS, good mention of Carbon Revolution.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

No they aren't. Labor had proposed funding to keep Holden open until 2022. It was in cement, then Liberal ripped the funding out from underneath and has pledged nothing to keep the supplier industry from imploding.
Even if that was true, maybe there is enough passion and a few technology breakthoughs like I mentioned to not require any government funding (though some regulatory changes would be most effective, without upsetting indignant taxpayers). If Labor gets in, at least the suppliers can maybe be saved, they have demonstrated lately that they deserve to be rescued. More than GM or Ford anyhow.



That would be amazing. We have such a vast pool of technology that has been researched and developed, like EVE (also known as Axiflux) and Blade. Also the UNSW Sunswift team are world-pioneers of solar cars that can take passengers. Carbon Revolution of Geelong makes carbon fibre wheels for the Shelby Mustang GT350R, and the aftermarket.
All those examples fly in the face of doubters as it is. I think we may see more examples soon.

Solar vehicles that double as small low speed aircraft would be terrific. Imagine being able to fly at 150 kph at low altitudes to skip over a section of rough terrain or boring section of highway. Can't be pulled over for speeding if you're airborne at the time

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I think we Aussies do utes very well. Others around the world are amazed by them, and wonder why they can't get anything like that. A proper coupe-utility, comfort of sedan and practicality of utility, something definitely separate from a 'pick up' or 'dual cab'.

Start there with an auto body builder, engineers, designers and hopefully keep some mechanical tooling as well. But most importantly, keep it locally owned by local Capital that supports the idea of manufacturing here. It works for the Germans...

Then export it wherever our FTA's can take it.

PS, good mention of Carbon Revolution.

Love it! Crowd-source funding and/or design, use recycled or existing parts (from suppliers) ute. Company would become the new custodian of the ute and evolve it to become a more package-efficient design. An electric ute would be a worldwide smash.
I'd also like to see an enclosed vehicle that is capable of lane-splitting. I always thought my commute on the F3 and Pacific Highway would take less years off my life with a vehicle like this.
But I digress.
There's a crowd-sourcing initiative for the Sunswift, there could be one for this new brand , and a petition to get access to ANCAP's facilities, emissions labs, ESP calibration for free for local makers. As an idea.

[CyberWasp]

Come up with a concept then start a KickStarter campaign

[Sprintey]

Thanks for the reply Falcon XV. I'd think there would be a couple of platforms available locally that are about to be consigned to the dustbin of history, but don't know if their owners would sell. Besides, I reckon you'd want to downsize overall, but upsize tray dimensions to make it practical. Another thing, like in the past, an indigenous panel van could be sprung very easily off a ute - and worldwide would be quite a niche. Hadn't considered crowd funding an idea like that - what does it take a company to deliver a new vehicle, 1Billion? Surely us Aussies could do it way cheaper!

[XR Martin]

Electric Ute, Tesla style would do ok I think.
Plenty of room under the tray for batteries.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Thanks for the reply Falcon XV. I'd think there would be a couple of platforms available locally that are about to be consigned to the dustbin of history, but don't know if their owners would sell. Besides, I reckon you'd want to downsize overall, but upsize tray dimensions to make it practical. Another thing, like in the past, an indigenous panel van could be sprung very easily off a ute - and worldwide would be quite a niche. Hadn't considered crowd funding an idea like that - what does it take a company to deliver a new vehicle, 1Billion? Surely us Aussies could do it way cheaper!

I'm loving the way everyone is thinking. Yes, tray dimensions/ one tonne capacity in a smaller, more space effcient package.
There are tiny utes in Japan ( Forward-control kei van/trucks), India ( single cylinder things -1 tonne micro FCV things) and a big bakkie following in Seth Efrika and Brazil.

They represent potential export markets, or even CKD kits. I'd like to see a 3-D printed, carbon-fibre body FCV ute but maybe that's jumping the shark a little bit.
Who knows, though; Carbon-fibre price has dropped dramatically, as have lithium batteries so maybe in 10-15 years it will be competitive with steel. It has come down from $35/lb to $12 in 10 years...

LPG is definitely one area we need to keep innovating in. Orbital's system on the EcoLPI Falcons is simply amazing. I hope its compatible with other vehicles. It should be our primary fuel, just as Ethanol is Brazil's.
Until Solar et al get off the ground, anyway ;)

[mik]

Going back to the car market seems to me to be a pipe dream , the car market is over represented with vehicles and the world is flooded with car makers all trying to make a buck and under cutting each other at every turn.

imo we would be better off pushing the technology of prefab modular housing that could be built super quickly and cheaply, imagine having rooms delivered and snapped together and all plumbing and electrics already done with snap together fittings to the slab, how good would that be , imagine ............ bare slab at 9 am , job done ......barby at mid day. .

[au2000]

Not wanting to make this a political thing but to say that Holden was going to stay long term in Australia is a pipe dream, nor labor or the lib's could stop them from closing,

[Elks]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

A good thread, because it's really at the heart of the matter. Do you want to make things in this country? Do you have to have manufacturing to be an OECD top 20 economy? Do you want a future path for your children in design, engineering or manufacturing to be available locally?

1) Local ownership
2) Local Capital
3) Play our niche.

It's been no help to be involved in 'One Ford' - as this policy directed by Dearborn has put an end to a manufacturer open since 1925. And impeded it from exporting where it wanted, when it wanted. At the same time, it allowed Brazil-only models to be continued there while Ford Australia was sacrificed.

When you don't have control over your enterprise, others can make decisions for you. For example, the demise of the Commodore platform was, in the end, decided upon by a German FWD engineer.

I think we Aussies do utes very well. Others around the world are amazed by them, and wonder why they can't get anything like that. A proper coupe-utility, comfort of sedan and practicality of utility, something definitely separate from a 'pick up' or 'dual cab'.

Start there with an auto body builder, engineers, designers and hopefully keep some mechanical tooling as well. But most importantly, keep it locally owned by local Capital that supports the idea of manufacturing here. It works for the Germans...

Then export it wherever our FTA's can take it.

PS, good mention of Carbon Revolution.

Good post that addresses the problem. We don't own anything so we don't make the rules or the decisions. One Ford is a great example. It's a good plan. Designed by Detroit for Detroit. The fact that it's shutting plants here and Europe should surprise no one.

Getting Tesla on board is a great idea, but that doesn't fix the problem. That just gets us a new master.

[Maka]

Gov are about to make a announcement if i heard correctly on tv ABC 24 just now, they are going to reinstate around 1 billion dollars worth of funding to the auto industry. Here's the link to confirm -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-1...y-fund/6292868

Some good news there!

cheer's, Maka

[Polyal]

Honestly I cant work out why we couldnt start making our own EV taxi fleet for large cities.

Obviously this wont work for regional areas but the enviro issues are predominately city based. Get the infrastructure going which could then flow to private cars.

That taxi company could then later branch out into passenger vehicles if the market is there..if not stay smallish and continue supporting the city fleets.

Our version of the London Cab..make it look different and ultimately as functional as possible.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Maka

Gov are about to make a announcement if i heard correctly on tv ABC 24 just now, they are going to reinstate around 1 billion dollars worth of funding to the auto industry. Here's the link to confirm -

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-1...y-fund/6292868

Some good news there!

cheer's, Maka

This will be interesting to see where it goes.
The big 3 already announced their departure so I cannot see the point of the money going to them.
I certainly hope that it is put to better use and support local engineering of future vehicle technology and manufacturing.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Wretched

This will be interesting to see where it goes.
The big 3 already announced their departure so I cannot see the point of the money going to them.
I certainly hope that it is put to better use and support local engineering of future vehicle technology and manufacturing.

Minister McFarland was saying these moves by the government is about providing certainty & funding for the component manufacturers until 2017, so the big three have Aussie made parts to build vehicles going forward till 2017.

cheer's, Maka

[Wretched]

So they need a $1B of assistance for 2 years worth of manufacturing?
I find that outrageous. Like I said in my earlier post, the money would be better spent on encouraging manufactures and engineering firms to lead the way in the next generation of vehicles and not propping up companies that are shutting down anyway.
Good money being thrown after bad.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by mik

Going back to the car market seems to me to be a pipe dream , the car market is over represented with vehicles and the world is flooded with car makers all trying to make a buck and under cutting each other at every turn.

So you exploit a niche. There is a car manufacturing company in Australia that designed, engineered and built a home grown SUV that is still on sale in Australia until 2016. The know how is there, just that the full potential of the product was never realised.

With vehicles like the Landcruiser 70 series and Land Rover Defender going the way of the dodo next year, anyone globally who wants a no-frills no nonsense 4x4 in either wagon, dual cab ute or troop carrier for industrial or agricultural use will have to refurbish older vehicles, or make do with vehicles that are on offer commercially from the big players, but may not meet their needs.

[aussiblue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31810731

The Australian government is to restore hundreds of millions of dollars of funding to the ailing autos sector.

Industry Minister Ian Macfarlane said that A$500m ($384m; £254m) of the taxpayer assistance which was cut in last year's budget would be renewed.

Mr Macfarlane said the move would ensure the car manufacturing sector would survive until at least 2017.

Australia's car industry has been in decline for decades, with only three manufacturers left in the country.

In recent years, Ford, General Motors' Holden unit and Toyota all said they would stop manufacturing cars in Australia by 2017, effectively marking the end of the country's car production industry.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Wretched

So they need a $1B of assistance for 2 years worth of manufacturing?
I find that outrageous. Like I said in my earlier post, the money would be better spent on encouraging manufactures and engineering firms to lead the way in the next generation of vehicles and not propping up companies that are shutting down anyway.
Good money being thrown after bad.

The money was for those suppliers to diversify and go after export markets. Hardly a waste if it helps them survive and potentially expand IMO.

And not all that money will be used either, it's just there if it's needed.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So you exploit a niche. There is a car manufacturing company in Australia that designed, engineered and built a home grown SUV that is still on sale in Australia until 2016. The know how is there, just that the full potential of the product was never realised.

With vehicles like the Landcruiser 70 series and Land Rover Defender going the way of the dodo next year, anyone globally who wants a no-frills no nonsense 4x4 in either wagon, dual cab ute or troop carrier for industrial or agricultural use will have to refurbish older vehicles, or make do with vehicles that are on offer commercially from the big players, but may not meet their needs.

That sounds ok when you say it fast, but to me a niche is not really a good long term money spinner, there are still plenty of other manufacturers that can tool up and give you competition that already have the resources and plenty of capital ,
they could starve you out easily just by chucking in stuff you cant possibly afford to match , and they wouldn't batt an eyelid at running at a loss for a couple of years/cutting prices just to put you out of business.
the asian car makers are a good example, 10 years ago hardly anyone wanted to know about them, even the big gun companies are getting a run for their money today.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

So you exploit a niche. There is a car manufacturing company in Australia that designed, engineered and built a home grown SUV that is still on sale in Australia until 2016. The know how is there, just that the full potential of the product was never realised.

With vehicles like the Landcruiser 70 series and Land Rover Defender going the way of the dodo next year, anyone globally who wants a no-frills no nonsense 4x4 in either wagon, dual cab ute or troop carrier for industrial or agricultural use will have to refurbish older vehicles, or make do with vehicles that are on offer commercially from the big players, but may not meet their needs.

Some dude in WA used to make this thing called OKA or something:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OKA_4wd

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The money was for those suppliers to diversify and go after export markets. Hardly a waste if it helps them survive and potentially expand IMO.

And not all that money will be used either, it's just there if it's needed.

the article doesn't clearly state that.

But the cut prompted widespread fears, including in the coalition, about thousands of jobs losses and a danger that car makers would pull out of Australia before 2017.

"The government will withdraw legislation that would take A$500m out of the ATS between now and 2017," said Mr Macfarlane.

"We need the components industry to be there right till the end," he said

Seems to indicate that the component manufacturing support is there until the end of the big 3. There is no mention of extended support or support for export.

[Bossxr8]

Well that is the idea behind it. Typical newsroom BS trying to make a story out to be something it's not.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Honestly I cant work out why we couldnt start making our own EV taxi fleet for large cities.

Obviously this wont work for regional areas but the enviro issues are predominately city based. Get the infrastructure going which could then flow to private cars.

That taxi company could then later branch out into passenger vehicles if the market is there..if not stay smallish and continue supporting the city fleets.

Our version of the London Cab..make it look different and ultimately as functional as possible.

With some historical links to Falcon :') I hope a commercial and specialist vehicle skunkworks opens up, but we need a bit more encouragement than today's cycnical announcement.