Thermical stability of straight six

Swedishmoose · 13-08-2012, 12:15 PM

hi there,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me how thermically stable the block and head of the 4 Litre six cylinder falcon is.

I've heard that a few had problems with cracked blocks / heads when tthe car was driven at higher speeds for a longer periode.

Would it be possible to drive at 180km/h for 30 minutes nonstop without ruining the engine? Imagine a German Autobahn f.ex.

Could you run it over there at high speeds without any issues?

The Falcon and its engine was constructed for Australian conditions and the speed limits.

What would need to be upgraded, in order to make it possible for the engine to handle that stress?

thanks for any information...

cheers

The Moose

FGII-XR6 · 13-08-2012, 12:52 PM

it should take it no problems they are a very strong engine and the bottom end is the basis for the turbo 6

Mr Hardware · 13-08-2012, 12:56 PM

I have absolutely no idea where these claims come from; I have never heard them before. I don't see any scenario where the I6 will fail provided it's got oil and coolant. And I've seen about 30 AU I6's do three quarters of a million kays without even the head being taken off.

Road_Warrior · 13-08-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

I've heard that a few had problems with cracked blocks / heads when tthe car was driven at higher speeds for a longer periode.

Where did you "hear" about these "problems"? The AU engine is one of the most robust iterations of the I6, next to the twin cam Barra.

Swedishmoose · 13-08-2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Where did you "hear" about these "problems"? The AU engine is one of the most robust iterations of the I6, next to the twin cam Barra.

Hi there...

i talked to a German guy who was an exchange student here in Australia and he mentioned that he had lots of trouble with the engine.

I didn't dig deeper because "exchange students" usually buy old crappy and poorly maintained cars.

I myself think the 6 is one of the best engines. period.

But as I got family ties to Germany as well and might move there for a while, I was thinking of taking the AU with me.

The driving characteristics and situations on German Autobahns are very different to our highways here. There is a higher average speed and cars go often 200+ for a while.

If I want to be "in the fast lane"...I wanna make sure that the engine doesn't overheat and/or the block / head cracks.

Maybe he was just frustrated because he in particular got ripped off and bought a pup...

Cheers

The Moose

mac_man_luke · 13-08-2012, 01:39 PM

Id be doing some serious upgrades to an AU if you want to travel at 150+

eg suspension, brakes

Swedishmoose · 13-08-2012, 02:02 PM

Hi Mac Man Luke,

that's true. The brakes are already upgraded and the suspension is next. New shocks, bushes and 20mm lower springs.
It is not that urgent but I was more worried about the engine.

So the engine doesn't need any upgrades and will cope well ?

That's good news I suppose...

The Moose

Road_Warrior · 13-08-2012, 02:22 PM

Hmm I'd be taking what the exchange student said with a pinch of crap - like you said, it was probably a clunker and poorly maintained.

Honestly, for that sort of driving, the suspension and brakes would be the most important thing to upgrade.

You may also wish to check out the costs of importing an registering a foreign vehicle in the EU as well.

Swedishmoose · 13-08-2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Hmm I'd be taking what the exchange student said with a pinch of crap - like you said, it was probably a clunker and poorly maintained.

Honestly, for that sort of driving, the suspension and brakes would be the most important thing to upgrade.

You may also wish to check out the costs of importing an registering a foreign vehicle in the EU as well.

Hi Road Warrior,

it is actually a lot easier to register a car in Germany that comes from "outside" the country compared what people have to go through trying to register an overseas model in Australia (especially with left hand steering).

I still have a car sitting in storage in Germany trying to get it over here but because it is not 30 years old, i can't register it in NSW.

The most expensive part is the actual container and the transport. but its worth it I guess.

The Moose

Maka · 13-08-2012, 04:41 PM

G'day Swedishmoose, if you are worried about blowing the motor from hi speed touring throw on some engine & transmission coolers. Sustained hi speed use will blow your crank bearings if the car isnt maintained to the highest standards generally but au motors are very tough. Ring Bruce Heinrich for more info.

cheers,Maka

nassi · 13-08-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

hi there,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me how thermically stable the block and head of the 4 Litre six cylinder falcon is.

I've heard that a few had problems with cracked blocks / heads when tthe car was driven at higher speeds for a longer periode.

Would it be possible to drive at 180km/h for 30 minutes nonstop without ruining the engine? Imagine a German Autobahn f.ex.

Could you run it over there at high speeds without any issues?

The Falcon and its engine was constructed for Australian conditions and the speed limits.

What would need to be upgraded, in order to make it possible for the engine to handle that stress?

thanks for any information...

cheers

The Moose

If it is a ute then you will not be able to drive at 180Kph, they are speed limited to 180kph and just cut out when that speed is reached.
Bloody dangerous IMO.
cheers

FGII-XR6 · 13-08-2012, 11:06 PM

all AUs are limited to 180 except the XRs . The XRs have a different tailshaft to cope with the high speed . an XR tailshaft and a flash tune will solve this

PlukaDuck · 13-08-2012, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

hi there,

I was wondering if anyone can tell me how thermically stable the block and head of the 4 Litre six cylinder falcon is.

I've heard that a few had problems with cracked blocks / heads when tthe car was driven at higher speeds for a longer periode.

Would it be possible to drive at 180km/h for 30 minutes nonstop without ruining the engine? Imagine a German Autobahn f.ex.

Could you run it over there at high speeds without any issues?

The Falcon and its engine was constructed for Australian conditions and the speed limits.

What would need to be upgraded, in order to make it possible for the engine to handle that stress?

thanks for any information...

cheers

The Moose

Hey Moose
Take one of these Australian bad boys to europe. They flogged the worlds best including porsche,ferrari, bmw, mercedes, etc etc the 24 hour bathurst by about ......HMMMMMM 20 laps And you can sit on 280km/h

nassi · 14-08-2012, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by au3xr6

all AUs are limited to 180 except the XRs . The XRs have a different tailshaft to cope with the high speed . an XR tailshaft and a flash tune will solve this

XR utes are limited to 180 too

Swedishmoose · 14-08-2012, 11:18 AM

Hi there....

so from what I conclude is that an upgrade of the bearings and the tailshaft would already help a lot.

I just used 180 ks as an example. You can only really go high speed at night when everybody else is at home.

During daytime the Autobahn is very busy because Germany sits in the centre of Europe and everybody actually has to drive through Germany in order to get somewhere.

But at night it is quite usual that you see people going very fast.
However, a huge percentage of the Autobahn is limited to 120 ks.

So..im writing down...

bearings, tailshaft, suspension, bushes, brakes, radiator and tranny cooler.

Thats not too bad.

cheers

The Moose

Sox · 14-08-2012, 09:10 PM

I'll go against the common opinion here....

Personally, I think the AU 6 isn't suited spectacularly well to consistent high speed use.

I was in Germany 4 or so years ago, did 5000k's in 5 weeks in a Audi A6 turbo oiler station wagon.
I spent much time on the autobahns averaging around 150kph or so.

The speed limit is 130kph typically, when not unlimited.

At one stage I sat on 180kph for at least 30mins, 220kph for about 5 minutes, and maxed it out at 240kph for perhaps 30seconds. (All speedo indicated, so may have been somewhat less).

Getting back to our trusty AU 6 pack handling the constant high revs, I'm certainly not as confident as some of you blokes.
Going through the gears and flashing up to high revs even a lot, is nothing like sitting on a constant 4000rpm plus.

The AU engine is also very undersquare, so piston speed is somewhat higher than the revs indicate (compared to more normal oversquare engines).

As already mentioned, an engine oil cooler is probably a very good idea.
The rest just needs to be in good condition. If you know the service history is good, and it doesn't have too many k's, then you probably don't need to touch anything else.

A tranny cooler is always a good idea, regardless of sustained speed.
Same for good brakes and radiator.
Decent shocks, to reduce the floatiness on an older AU is a very good idea (perhaps mandatory).

I wouldn't worry about the tailshaft (assuming the unis are in good nic), unless you're going to force it to go faster than 180kph by tuning it.
Also, whilst XR's have no speed limiter, they're actually worse off than regular AU's for this type of driving as they have a shorter diff ratio. Meaning the engine will be at a higher rev for any given road speed.

Anyway, have fun, the autobahns are awesome.

Swedishmoose · 15-08-2012, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

I'll go against the common opinion here....

Personally, I think the AU 6 isn't suited spectacularly well to consistent high speed use.

I was in Germany 4 or so years ago, did 5000k's in 5 weeks in a Audi A6 turbo oiler station wagon.
I spent much time on the autobahns averaging around 150kph or so.

The speed limit is 130kph typically, when not unlimited.

At one stage I sat on 180kph for at least 30mins, 220kph for about 5 minutes, and maxed it out at 240kph for perhaps 30seconds. (All speedo indicated, so may have been somewhat less).

Getting back to our trusty AU 6 pack handling the constant high revs, I'm certainly not as confident as some of you blokes.
Going through the gears and flashing up to high revs even a lot, is nothing like sitting on a constant 4000rpm plus.

The AU engine is also very undersquare, so piston speed is somewhat higher than the revs indicate (compared to more normal oversquare engines).

As already mentioned, an engine oil cooler is probably a very good idea.
The rest just needs to be in good condition. If you know the service history is good, and it doesn't have too many k's, then you probably don't need to touch anything else.

A tranny cooler is always a good idea, regardless of sustained speed.
Same for good brakes and radiator.
Decent shocks, to reduce the floatiness on an older AU is a very good idea (perhaps mandatory).

I wouldn't worry about the tailshaft (assuming the unis are in good nic), unless you're going to force it to go faster than 180kph by tuning it.
Also, whilst XR's have no speed limiter, they're actually worse off than regular AU's for this type of driving as they have a shorter diff ratio. Meaning the engine will be at a higher rev for any given road speed.

Anyway, have fun, the autobahns are awesome.

Hi sox..

yep, that was exactely what I was worrying..

that constant higher rev for a longer period of time because the 6 cylinder wasn't specifically constructed for that.

Every car which is sold in Europe will automatically also be sold in germany and ALL manufacturers have to make sure that their engines can cope with the specific stress of the Autobahn and it is definately a lot different from what we are used to in Australia.

That was also the reason why Gm couldn't but their V8 engine in the Opel Omega because the engine blew up in tests and couldn't handle the high constant revs.

The AU Falcon was only sold in AUS and NZ and therefore there was no need for Ford to take that specific stress of an Autobahn into consideration when they developed the Falcon because they new that the car would never be sold in Europe or elsewhere.

I am pretty confident that the 6 will manage hundreds of thousands of km's in Australia because it was constructed to deal with our conditions here.

In Germany, where people go 500-800 k's top speed (if possible...usually at night) thats different.

Well....without any modifications I would still be able to drive it in Germany but I guess I would limit myself to 140 km/h. The engine should handle that for hours without any harm.

Hopefully....

cheers

The Moose

Mr Hardware · 15-08-2012, 12:26 PM

Well i suppose that's the question isn't it
Is the I6 suited for 180kmh? Nope. But less so is the rest of the car, esp suspension. Boy does a full-ride-height AU get floaty up over 150.
Do I have faith that an I6 could handle ~4000rpm constant for a whole hour without issue, day after day? Yep.

PlukaDuck · 15-08-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

Hi sox..

yep, that was exactely what I was worrying..

that constant higher rev for a longer period of time because the 6 cylinder wasn't specifically constructed for that.

Every car which is sold in Europe will automatically also be sold in germany and ALL manufacturers have to make sure that their engines can cope with the specific stress of the Autobahn and it is definately a lot different from what we are used to in Australia.

That was also the reason why Gm couldn't but their V8 engine in the Opel Omega because the engine blew up in tests and couldn't handle the high constant revs.

The AU Falcon was only sold in AUS and NZ and therefore there was no need for Ford to take that specific stress of an Autobahn into consideration when they developed the Falcon because they new that the car would never be sold in Europe or elsewhere.

I am pretty confident that the 6 will manage hundreds of thousands of km's in Australia because it was constructed to deal with our conditions here.

In Germany, where people go 500-800 k's top speed (if possible...usually at night) thats different.

Well....without any modifications I would still be able to drive it in Germany but I guess I would limit myself to 140 km/h. The engine should handle that for hours without any harm.

Hopefully....

cheers

The Moose

I think you lads should familarise yourselves with the bathurst 24 hour race.
Where 6 cylinder falcons and commodores and EUROTRASH go flatout for 24hrs.
This thread really is amusing........

Swedishmoose · 15-08-2012, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlukaDuck

I think you lads should familarise yourselves with the bathurst 24 hour race.
Where 6 cylinder falcons and commodores and EUROTRASH go flatout for 24hrs.
This thread really is amusing........

Uhhhhm...

yep, because they are racing cars...I am talking about the everyday Falcon...

modified engines can cope with a lot more stress...I guess everybody is aware of that

cheers

The Moose

PlukaDuck · 15-08-2012, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

Uhhhhm...

yep, because they are racing cars...I am talking about the everyday Falcon...

modified engines can cope with a lot more stress...I guess everybody is aware of that

cheers

The Moose

The 24 hour is also for PRODUCTION CARS..........

PlukaDuck · 15-08-2012, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swedishmoose

Uhhhhm...

yep, because they are racing cars...I am talking about the everyday Falcon...

modified engines can cope with a lot more stress...I guess everybody is aware of that

cheers

The Moose

Here is a link.........Have a look at class E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathurst_24_Hour

I couldnt bare to read anymore of the c**p. I guess NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THAT......

Swedishmoose · 16-08-2012, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlukaDuck

Here is a link.........Have a look at class E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathurst_24_Hour

I couldnt bare to read anymore of the c**p. I guess NOT MANY PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF THAT......

Hmm..

thanks for the link (very appreciated), but in Class F I can't see a Falcon and the Tickford AU Falcon racing in Class C is probably not standard.

In fact, most cars that are participating in any kind of racing are either slightly or moderately modified.

And with what I have planned it is ok to slightly modify and improve our Falcon. Basically the suspension as I am not so keen on driving high speed with the Falcon...and cruising at arround 140 is enough.

I have done high speed driving in Germany for 28 of all my years and it is nice, but not essential. Been there, done that so to say.

But thanks again for the link..
cheers

The Moose

mik · 16-08-2012, 01:16 PM

i would have run my xr at 4000 rpm for extended periods happily when it was newish, i`ve run it for extended periods dragging big old heavy caravan behind it at 100/110 kph for hours on end in 40+ celcius, so i think that is equivalent to a fast run with less load at higher rpm and it still runs like a clock at 205,000 k`s.
if you where going to run hard and fast you would want to have good lubricants in it and be super well maintained, at 11 years old you would want to be confident in the vehicle condition or your asking for trouble.

Mr Hardware · 16-08-2012, 01:53 PM

Yeah that's a good point mik, a caravan at 100/110 in 3rd is going to be practically the same stress (or perhaps more than!) doing 180 in top vanless.

And there's been thousands of folk who have towed a van around Oz with a falcon with absolutely 0 problems.

**Mechan1k** · 16-08-2012, 02:44 PM

Also you need to add to this though ... Temps in Germany in Summer are like our winter days too ... and at speed there's sufficient cool air as well.

Suggest taking into account a different rate coolant and engine oil into the picture too as winter may take it's toll on it.

And another thing ... your heater is going to have a hard time keeping you warm .... most European vehicles I have come across run electric elements anyway to get it warmed up quicker too ... the old coolant flow/blower fan setup may not cut it.

Swedishmoose · 17-08-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Also you need to add to this though ... Temps in Germany in Summer are like our winter days too ... and at speed there's sufficient cool air as well.

Suggest taking into account a different rate coolant and engine oil into the picture too as winter may take it's toll on it.

And another thing ... your heater is going to have a hard time keeping you warm .... most European vehicles I have come across run electric elements anyway to get it warmed up quicker too ... the old coolant flow/blower fan setup may not cut it.

Hi there...

well even in our mild Aussie Winter in NSW the car barely manages to warm up.
Within the city limits the temperature gauge manages to move up a bit but the moment you hit the freeway it looks as the temperature gauge is stuffed because it is as far left as it can get.

I am not sure but that seems to be a common "feature" with the AU.

In summer the temperature gauge sits at the "O" of the word "normal" and that seems to be ok.

But correct me if I am wrong....sould I save up for a new temperature gauge, thermostat or anything else?

cheers
The Moose

robbyj · 17-08-2012, 02:04 PM

Personally, id sell the AU and just use the other car you have in storage or buy a new one. We all love our AU's but your obviously worried about how it is going to perform over there.

Otherwise basic things like the brakes, suspension, and coolers as well as ensuring all fluids are new and clean. I wouldn't be bothering about the tailshaft and trying to go over 180ks. Surely 150/160 ks is enough?