Hypothetical: Post 2015 Falcon

[Road_Warrior]

Well, for starters, it needs to come available with the feature set and quality of its global counterparts on offer in the US and Europe.

This whole 'one Ford' circlejerk should be a two way street and the equipment available to US and European consumers should be made available to Australian car buyers. And if its outside FoA's development budget, then Dearborn should stump up some more coin to make it happen.

[ivorya]

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

One word: Budget.

Also, Mondeo is lighter then falcon because it only has 4 cyl engines and because it doesnt have a massive big drive shaft running right back through the car and the resultant heavy duty IRS.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

AU Falcon went through no fewer than 39 clinics and produced a great car that very few people actually wanted.
Research is only valid when the right people are surveyed, this is why Ford Australia is far more guarded
these days when it acquires data pertaining to Falcon, they actually target people intending to buy it...

Falcon and Territory platforms produce very profitable vehicles, it's just that the sales numbers aren't as good as they should be.
If Falcon was selling at the same quantities as it Commodore competitor, we wouldn't be constantly questioning its continued use,
our perception of Falcon's fixed costs are based on what we perceive with Holden but those costs are clearly not the same.
Holden needs to run two shifts where Ford only needs to run one one, how can the costs be comparable?

Look at the increased common parts being used between Falcon and Territory, the upgrade to FG II
which was mostly achieved through a change of front bar, lights, interior trim and display screen that is
shared with territory. All of Ford's recent upgrades have been partly subsidized by the government
so the actual cost to Ford and flow on to customers is minimal....

We are just seeing 2011 FG II now but I'm telling you that the next update in 2013 is mostly done already
so that means Ford is already totally focused on what is happening beyond this product cycle, beyond 2015....

[Brazen]

Wagon and diesel - that would be over 1000 extra sales a month right there.

(Probably more considering Holden often sells over 1200 Commodore wagons a month alongside Captiva)

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Wagon and diesel - that would be over 1000 extra sales a month right there.

Says who? Are you a market researcher?

Also, there is a reason Ford don't make a Falcon wagon or the Fairlane anymore. It wasn't because people didn't buy them was it?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Wagon and diesel - that would be over 1000 extra sales a month right there.

(Probably more considering Holden often sells over 1200 Commodore wagons a month alongside Captiva)

and we all know that ford should be able to mimic anything holden does, right!??

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

You dont seriously think for 1 min they're not acutely aware of what customers want?

Do you really think the answers lie on here and they are oblivious to it?

You do realise they spend millions a year researching and surveying REAL quantified customers, not anonymous Internet "experts" who are maybe just school kids or people who'll never buy a new car anyway...
Sometimes, actually most of the time the cost to deliver those expectations far outweighs the return on investment or the risk of investment..

1. I think, THEY think they know what customers want. A little difference there.

The problem with your blanket statment about internet 'experts' is worrying. Most of us have been buying and will continue to buy these vehicles, so i guess we are real world test subjects. If they don't get onto these forums, read, listen to problems, try to solve issues, then they are kidding themselves.

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by ivorya

1. I think, THEY think they know what customers want. A little difference there.

The problem with your blanket statment about internet 'experts' is worrying. Most of us have been buying and will continue to buy these vehicles, so i guess we are real world test subjects. If they don't get onto these forums, read, listen to problems, try to solve issues, then they are kidding themselves.

Feedback is completely pointless unless you can acurately verify and qualify exactly who is providing it.. and what their future buying potential is...

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Feedback is completely pointless unless you can acurately verify and qualify exactly who is providing it.. and what their future buying potential is...

Do you even own an FG or any late-model Falcon?

These "Internet" experts are also people and these people buy new Falcons. Their input is definitely important.

Not everyone wants over-size chrome grilles or cheap plastic trim. The issues raised by people on forums or other car websites should be noted by Ford, because these are reasons why they aren't selling as much as they should be.

[imugli]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I want the FORD Aus Top Wigs to get onto these forums more often to listen and contribute and just maybe, they'd be able to take some of these suggestions to the table to be costed and also by listening to problems, take their heads out of their A_s's and relise that they really arn't producing a world export car.
In relation to the topic at hand, Why not, build the Falcon to the same dimentions of the Mondeo, utilizing updated chasis and the current Ecoboost and Modular V6 engines. Mondeo is just about the same size as Falcon, weigh's less.
I guess the question needs to be asked, with SUV's being the Flavour, is there a need for such a car to cost Billions in development with harder times to regain that money.

What makes you think they don't already take a look every now and then (besides the fact that if they listened to everyone here they would have gone through 3 complete marketing departments in the last 3 years)?

Back On Topic -

Make it lighter.

Increase the quality of the interior. I sat in a Titanium Territory at the MMS earlier this year and the dash was nowehere near meeting the door trim in any way that would be seen as "quality". They feel cheap.

As said before - there is no reason why a 55k car should not have any feature I can find on a 35k car. Bring SYNC, adaptive cruise control, park assist and everything else you can shove in the thing. At least on the top of the range cars and optional on lower range.

I hate to say it, but drop the I6. It's been a great engine but it's an orphan in the Ford world and continuing development when their are less expensive, corporate engines in the world just doesn't make sense. EcoBoost 2.0l, Ecoboost V6 and 5.0l V8 are the future. Offer them all across the range. Grandfather the V8 from FPV. XR8 with a firm, sports tuned suspension. G8E with a softer, sports luxury setup.

3 engines, 4 trim levels (XT, XR, G, GxE) = 12 model range.

While we're talking model range, re-align it. The XR range actually stood for something once upon a time. EB XR6 anyone? Now it's the fleet hack-mobile.

Drop the ute. The Ranger is a world class vehicle and fills the purpose.

Make it a little SMALLER. Most people just don't NEED to carry 3 6' 13" guys in the back nowadays, so it shouldn't be a factor.

Make it so bloody good that when they show it to Ford HQ with a split waterfall grille already on the front, they can't help but cream their pants.

Finally - MARKET IT! Not with fingers jumping across the countryside or trophies in the boot. Ford US marketing is fantastic at the moment - adapt that (including the social media brand ambassador thing).

[robbo/region15]

Post 2015..........
All depends where Vehicles are being built,then Imported to these shores.....IMO Falcon is a niche market,like Fosters ,Vegemite & Dole bludgers.Aussie Icons for sure ,but this is Global Ford in 2011 +.Sure it employs thousands of us,but the economic climate dictates a need for change ,especialy US companies.
just my 2 cents..

[Polyal]

Id love to say option 2 jpd80 but I for one am sick of hearing about the demise of the falcon etc etc. Link it into a brand or model line that is more secure and you remove this stigma that the media love to beat up on, and like it or not this does effect the brands perceived worth.

FWD/AWD Falcon is a waste of time. FWD will kill the performance models, in which IMO the Falcon name relies on (and again it just becomes a bigger...just..mondeo). AWD adds more weight and complexity for little gain, and in theory higher consumption.

There has to be room for a GRWD car in the Ford empire that can cater for multiple market segments and countries. Much the same has BMW does with the 5 series for example. Im not talking about the same quality (although its not out of the question), im talking about the concept of huge build numbers lower costs and increases content quality.

[Dr Smith]

I think the fact a new Focus has "active park assist" highlights the issues between a Falcon and it's globally sold siblings. A $50K+ Falcon should not be out featured by a cheaper model in its own stable. Ford Oz needs to leverage these features into Falcon and sadly a local-only model won't have the budget to get these features or will require a big jump in sales price to cover their cost. I'm realistic to understand why my next new locally built Ford doesn't have the tech features of a Mondeo or Focus however superior road performance and 5 seater capacity eventually won't be enough to sell more down the track.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I think the fact a new Focus has "active park assist" highlights the issues between a Falcon and it's globally sold siblings. A $50K+ Falcon should not be out featured by a cheaper model in its own stable. Ford Oz needs to leverage these features into Falcon and sadly a local-only model won't have the budget to get these features or will require a big jump in sales price to cover their cost. I'm realistic to understand why my next new locally built Ford doesn't have the tech features of a Mondeo or Focus however superior road performance and 5 seater capacity eventually won't be enough to sell more down the track.

Good post Doc.

"Should not" is true; on one hand we have what Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them..". If this implies that if the next Falcon isn't part of a global design then we can kiss the chances of it being on par with it's cheaper stable mates.

I see the most pivotal aspect to Falcon's future is what Ford plans to do with Lincoln. Ford recently announced how they will properly focus on the Lincoln brand to be world-competitive (they also said that everything they've done for Lincoln up to this point has been just "patchwork" more than anything so this demonstrates how serious they will be getting).

The big question out of all this is; will Ford deem it necessary that Lincoln has a rwd flagship model? If it's a "yes" then Falcon may well have all (or most of) the tech of this Lincoln's flagship. In other words, it can be a world beater.


Going back to John's question. "What does Ford Australia need to do with the current design to evolve to the next generation suitable for post 2015?

Let's have at it and don't hold back........engines, transmissions, fuel economy, body styles, equipment features....."

So I take this as meaning it's not part of a global platform? If so...

First and foremost: Must be LHD proof.


Chassis: They need to fix Control Blade to take more power.
The reason I say this is because once upon a time Lincoln had a couple of FG Falcons. One had the Miami, the other had their own blown 450+kW Coyote. There was a strong argument to use this to rip the Cadillac CTS-V a new one. The rear needed a lot more attention than they could afford to give it at the time... so yeah, just make the rear bullet-proof.

They should focus on aluminium in the moving components before they employ it in the body.

Obviously, epas would be standardised by then. You would think.



Engines: If they were to use the diesel they should ditch that ancient 2.7 litre and use the diesels from the new Ranger.

But I'd rather the following...
Standard...
3.7 n.a. V6.

Optional...
Ecoboost 2.0.
EcoLPi Ecoboost 2.0.
EcoLPi 3.7 n.a. V6.

Higher (performance) models have standard EB3.5 but LPi also an option.
V8? D.I. 5.0.
EcoLPi, optional.

FPV Models: If they beef CB up they can add fat tyres and therefore unleash Miami.



Gearing:Seven speed DCT as standard across the range. Without GRWD budget, I'm dreaming.

Design language: Whatever Ford's corporate styling is in the future will be I hope Falcon's designers won't forget that it must still symbolise a Falcon. The design language I'm seeing from the Euro Fords is promising but, for heaven's sake, please, don't let that Tasmanian - who did the Focus rear - anywhere near the Falcon's. Please!

Interior: Foot rest.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Chassis: They need to fix Control Blade to take more power.
The reason I say this is because once upon a time Lincoln had a couple of FG Falcons. One had the Miami, the other had their own blown 450+kW Coyote. There was a strong argument to use this to rip the Cadillac CTS-V a new one. The rear needed a lot more attention than they could afford to give it at the time... so yeah, just make the rear bullet-proof.

They should focus on aluminium in the moving components before they employ it in the body.

Obviously, epas would be standardised by then. You would think.



Engines: If they were to use the diesel they should ditch that ancient 2.7 litre and use the diesels from the new Ranger.
.

Much rather the newer PSA diesels then the ranger stuff falc'man. Yeah the ranger stuff is great but i had a listen to an idling diesel territory the other day (outside mind you) and apart from a slight puff of smoke and a few seconds of 'din din din' on start up i'd swear it was one of the queitest diesel engines i've ever heard. Ranger stuff is good but based on released video its diesels aren't passenger car spec noise wise (from the outside anyway). Inside the new territory you can't even tell its a diesel...at all....when idling.

As for control blade well if the stories of mustang testing are true they must be working on something. Ford Aus did the hard yards on the front end so now why doesn't FOrd NA help us out wit the rear? FFS control blade is good enough but its basic design was never suposed to deal with what FOrd Aus are asking of it....its just impossible to beef up a design to take that RWD HP when it was built for FWD/AWD work to a small car budget.... If ford wants to use it for the mustang they will obviously need to majorly improve its ability to take RWD grunt without breaking (probably have to go back to a subframe frankly this diff bush thing is folly) or just do a new RWD IRS. If ford does do that for mustang (which won't be beam axle at least in top spec form come the new model) then Ford Aus gets further cost efficincies in parts and its designed effectively for free.... This all increases the chances that Ford Aus will stay with RWD....but if they go epas/v6 etc. then its a global engine lineup (probably no zf boo hoo), and depending on the degree of cost savings global tech too. Best of both worlds no?

[Franco Cozzo]

- Transverse engine setup, non sports model Falcons will be FWD, sports models will be AWD. No more V8, thats Holden's territory, you want V8 you buy Holden, simple. That was a mistake in the 80s, but back then anything without a V8 was slow as crap unless it was a jap import. We've got 20 years plus worth of technology with forced induction, lets use it.

- Build quality is getting an overhaul, I want a WS Fiesta style interior, modern guages, soft touch plastics/vynils and trims which won't fall off or rattle like anything in 20,000km time.

- This is Australia, theres people who live outside of metro areas, I want a "regional" package as an option, which optional inside that is a PSA diesel 4 (or 6) cylinder engine, Bi-Xenons and factory driving lamps or mounting locations, slightly lifted, softer shocks, higher profile tyres and a full sized spare.

- Ecoboost 4 cylinder is the standard engine across the range, ecoboost V6 is will be on the sports/luxury models, optional are PSA 4 or 6 cylinder diesel engines.

- Front/Rear LSDs standard on AWD sports models and optional 6sp manual transmission.

- On luxury models, I want a 10" touch screen with GPS for the in car entertainment system.

[jpd80]

One Ford is meant to help FoA remain viable and profitable, not shut down what is established or what works.
What's the point of changing to a global platform that doesn't work for Australia?
Absolutely nothinmg.

Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them.."

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

One Ford is meant to help FoA remain viable and profitable, not shut down what is established or what works.
What's the point of changing to a global platform that doesn't work for Australia?
Absolutely nothinmg.

Alan Mulally said to Marin Burela, "If One Ford global platforms don work for you, then don't use them.."

There still has to be a business case to support the development of a next generation Falcon though.

And that still goes whether it has its own individual platform or if its a tophat on a global platform.

Do you believe that business case exists?

On that note, do you have up to date figures on the total development spend on FG? And would those figures include FH development costs since you've saids its complete?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

On that note, do you have up to date figures on the total development spend on FG? And would those figures include FH development costs since you've saids its complete?

We know that SZ Territory and FG II cost $240 million but $40 million of that was paid by the government
for V6 diesel, EcoLPI and Ecoboost I-4 so both updates actually cost Ford $100 million a piece, not bad hey...

[Johnnyboy]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

This is Australia, theres people who live outside of metro areas, I want a "regional" package as an option, which optional inside that is a PSA diesel 4 (or 6) cylinder engine, Bi-Xenons and factory driving lamps or mounting locations, slightly lifted, softer shocks, higher profile tyres and a full sized spare.

This is a key point. Drive around the regional towns and all you mostly see are Commodores (and import utes).

Make a bare bones and tough car with just the basics and price it accordingly, you'll get regional Australia behind it (particularly if you have a basic V8/manual). Pair it with a basic ute with raised suspension and possibly diesel motor. Amazing how many bush cocky's had nothing to buy after Ford ditched the fairlane...

Worked for Holden with the WB.

[THE SLUG]

Re-do the interior, make it larger and move the steering wheel higher up. The main reason we got a VE was that you could actually fit your legs underneath the steering wheels comfortably, and that there was much more room overall. Make more fuel-efficient engines, perhaps a diesel option or something similar to SIDI. But overall I think the exterior looks fine.

[Eaturbo]

With the ecoboost 4 and if they put the 2.7turbo diesel in nxt Falcon than they have plenty of quality engines. The 6 speed auto is plenty, hell we had 3and 4 speed auto's not that long ago and for a cheap car 6 gears is heaps. Fix the god dam cheap $hitt interior components like faulty A/C vent controls (HEM modules) and electric window and door locks failures. Use decent leather and adjustable rear headrests. Build a LTD/Caprice car above G6E out of a falcon shell with just new bumpers guard/bonnet/lights. A Calais V redline has much more equipment that a G6E turbo.

[jpd80]

You can tell that Jay Mays is dying to tell the world but he can't until certain internal processes happen.....

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You can tell that Jay Mays is dying to tell the world but he can't until certain internal processes happen.....

You mean that you can tell he wants to shut up all those annoying Australian Magazine Journalists who keep asking him questions about an annoying car from the other side of the world?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

You mean that you can tell he wants to shut up all those annoying Australian Magazine Journalists who keep asking him questions about an annoying car from the other side of the world?

Mays is director of Styling so he gets to see a lot of projects develop up to and after approval,
whatever FoA is working on must be pretty awesome for him to be nearly bursting at the seams...

Or is it a ploy to keep the very predictable anti-Ford Aus media off balance and guessing?

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Mays is director of Styling so he gets to see a lot of projects develop up to and after approval,
whatever FoA is working on must be pretty awesome for him to be nearly bursting at the seams...

For all we know FoA could have scored the engineering role for Ford's Ford GT replacement that they've been talking about for a while.

@ Point Two: I swear every second Journalist who speaks to him must be from Motor or Wheels or whatever quizing him about the Falcon, lol.

[Franco Cozzo]

Oh yeah, I forgot:


- Heated mirrors
- Auto up down on ALL windows, (Our new SV6 VE at work only has auto down on drivers.....)

[Joe5619]

For the love of god, keep a manual & RWD!!!