2018 Commondog

[Express]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

IMHO they'll want an NA V6 option, unique front and rear styling+ chassis tuning and not the same interior theme as Opel or it will be far too removed from VF for anyone to accept it as a Commodore.

The VE interior was a very different look to the VZ and it sold ok and the first Commodore was alien to the last Kingwood.

Marketing, marketing and marketing is the key and it will be aimed at the masses as most consumers are not interested in ball tearers.

[FalconXV]

Yeah but it had the same ergonomics ie centre console pwr window switches and glovebox boot release, was identifiable as commodore

[roddy1960]

G'day.....Well stuff me...Do you get a pork chop to throw in the back so the family dog will get in ?...That'll be pretty ordinary car among many methinks..The current Commodore is a better looker even this far out..Cheers Rod

[brismike]

What will the Bogans do with their Chev badges? Will the the Chev Badge industry go bankrupt? Lol

Mike

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by Express

The VE interior was a very different look to the VZ and it sold ok and the first Commodore was alien to the last Kingwood.

Marketing, marketing and marketing is the key and it will be aimed at the masses as most consumers are not interested in ball tearers.

The masses are not interested in Commodores now, the bulk of private sales now are v8'a which will no longer exist. The enthusiasts (call them bogans if it makes you feel better )walk with the v8.

Non enthusiast sedan buyers wouldn't be seen dead in a falcodore when a vw jetta or A class merc has badge snob appeal and are often cheaper, if not anywhere near as practical or cheap to maintain as a falcodore.


The majority of ford "bogan" buyers (myself included in this group) have moved into dualcabs already.The fact the falcon hasn't had a proper upgrade since 2008 sped the process up for the blue oval, it also doesn't hurt that our rangers are the flavor of the month and not a bad ute.


The market doesn't want a camry with the bogan stigma of a holden badge, it will be as popular amongst private buyers as mondeo.

[Carrion]

Commondog made me LOL.

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by arronm

Wait till the new V6 AWD starts spanking the current fords and Commodores , that will wipe the smile off your face. And again it looks like ford missed the boat. They may a well just go home.

What just like the WRX does now..., and the Rex is probably even lighter then this all new 5 door Commodore, just because it’s AWD doesn’t mean its a performance king.

[duaned]

Originally Posted by brismike

What will the Bogans do with their Chev badges? Will the the Chev Badge industry go bankrupt? Lol

Mike

Same as what you should do with your FPV badge. Bin it as it's a thing of the past.

[ZedTee]

Originally Posted by duaned

Same as what you should do with your FPV badge. Bin it as it's a thing of the past.

Stick em on the lawn mower! It'll cut the grass much faster!

[cycle myth]

It would be interesting to see the assumptions of their market equation for this.

DE sedan segment heavily declining.
Supported really by a foundation of enthusiasts for a V8 sales.
Recognition of not being local design and production negates the patriot sales.
Market continues to bias towards smaller cars and SUV's.
A global car design but Australia's unique preferences work against leveraging any economy of scales (i.e. larger vehicles and diesel, Europe will go the diesel but not the large car, US will go the large car but not the diesel, CO2 targets with a V8 consideration (v small capacity forced induction / electric support) is becoming commercial suicide.


Interesting times.

[Express]

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

The masses are not interested in Commodores now, the bulk of private sales now are v8'a which will no longer exist. The enthusiasts (call them bogans if it makes you feel better )walk with the v8.

Non enthusiast sedan buyers wouldn't be seen dead in a falcodore when a vw jetta or A class merc has badge snob appeal and are often cheaper, if not anywhere near as practical or cheap to maintain as a falcodore.


The majority of ford "bogan" buyers (myself included in this group) have moved into dualcabs already.The fact the falcon hasn't had a proper upgrade since 2008 sped the process up for the blue oval, it also doesn't hurt that our rangers are the flavor of the month and not a bad ute.


The market doesn't want a camry with the bogan stigma of a holden badge, it will be as popular amongst private buyers as mondeo.

What you say about the masses no longer having much interest in the Commodore is correct but my comment is about how the right marketing strategy could take the new Commodore and successfully move it away from the old.

Good marketing has often made dud products a winner and I’m not saying the new Commodore will be a dud but if they get the consumer into a mindset that Holden has gone German for example and that is a good thing then those who buy cars because of nice adverts or even sheep mentality can be turned enough to make it saleable.

As far as the V8 crowd goes I’m V8 to the core and I’m also old enough to remember when turbos started to make inroads and that most performance enthusiasts didn’t take the snail seriously but they do today and I’m sure if V8’s become out of reach for most then a 4 door twin turbo 6 as an alternative will eventually make up for it and will most likely get to a point where it blows away most anything we see today.

At present what the Commodore will be is all crystal ball stuff.

The new V6 twin turbo Cadillac beat the new C63s over the quarter and around a track in the following review so the GMH engine certainly has promise.

[Craig@AUDI]

Originally Posted by MethodX

An ****eload of bogans drive falcons, this forum in point

Excuse me I resemble that comment!

[blackf6]

If that pokyamum stuff can sweep the world. Holdon will be able to market this to the same generation. Might end up a success.

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by Express

What you say about the masses no longer having much interest in the Commodore is correct but my comment is about how the right marketing strategy could take the new Commodore and successfully move it away from the old.

Good marketing has often made dud products a winner and I’m not saying the new Commodore will be a dud but if they get the consumer into a mindset that Holden has gone German for example and that is a good thing then those who buy cars because of nice adverts or even sheep mentality can be turned enough to make it saleable.

As far as the V8 crowd goes I’m V8 to the core and I’m also old enough to remember when turbos started to make inroads and that most performance enthusiasts didn’t take the snail seriously but they do today and I’m sure if V8’s become out of reach for most then a 4 door twin turbo 6 as an alternative will eventually make up for it and will most likely get to a point where it blows away most anything we see today.

At present what the Commodore will be is all crystal ball stuff.

The new V6 twin turbo Cadillac beat the new C63s over the quarter and around a track in the following review so the GMH engine certainly has promise.

Hows the german engineering line working for them with the astra? A car that was the top selling small car in the country just 10 years ago and was rubbish, now apparently they are a good thing.
I'll have to ask someone who drives one if I ever see one on the road, I'm sure I will one day.

Holden is on the nose for many, for those that still love them no LS means the new Commodore will flop.

When holden do put something on facebook about the new Commodore, the post's invariably get monstered by holden fans that are p1ss3d that the new Commodore is fwd and no v8.
It's usually a great laugh.

[arronm]

There will be no more laughing when your cammed LS3 gets its nose wiped by a twin turbo V6

[XRtowcar]

Tend to think Holden will throw everything they can get onto the Aus market in the hope something might get traction to stop them going to the wall after the Aus built Commodedoor stops production.
Not sure how the hatch back sedan look will go for our conservative sedan market.

[DFB FGXR6]

Whilst many tend to praise Holden for their ability to market anything into a sales winner, two factors that Holden will struggle to market include -

-With over 50% of Commodore sales currently for V8 powered models, many of which are affordable 40-45K base SS, how many of these buyers will be tempted to spend the projected 55K + on an emotionless V6 Turbo AWD?

-With the remainder of sales heavily propped by fleets, how many of these are going to stay with a large, thirsty sedan now that the whole "buy local" thing no longer exists?

So suddenly the 2500 odd sales per month of the current model being bought by enthusiasts keen for a slice of V8 memorabilia and heavily discounted fleet sales ends up being something like 900-1000 per month at the most.

[Brazen]

I think they will be lucky to break 800 a month with the new one. What will save them is the Commodore name and you have many fleets and buyers automatically swap to the new one. Otherwise it will sell as well as Mondeo or Mazda6.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Whilst many tend to praise Holden for their ability to market anything into a sales winner, two factors that Holden will struggle to market include -

-With over 50% of Commodore sales currently for V8 powered models, many of which are affordable 40-45K base SS, how many of these buyers will be tempted to spend the projected 55K + on an emotionless V6 Turbo AWD?

Also I wonder about the age profile of the non-V8 private sales too. When I use to have a SV6 Sportwagon, the salesman was telling me with the traditional family buyer had moved onto SUVs and apart from enthuisasts and younger guys who bought the SSs. That by far for them the biggest buyers of Calais and CalaisV were all the original Italian and Greek immigrants in the wider region who emmigrated back in the 1950s-1960s. Some of the older blokes who traditionally bought the 6 cylinder locals are getting on in years.


There was actually a plan to keep Zeta Commodore going in Australia till at least 2021 and move it up a notch and keep it high profit and relatively lucrative with the range built around the luxury and sport versions with also ongoing exports to the USA. They were going to focus volume at the Elizabeth plant on a new small car and a mid sized SUV based on FWD platform (Australianised successor to the Captiva). But negative language on industry support from the government at the time, a high australian dollar and German unions wanting assurance of volume in Germany all conspired against them. Just one of those factors missing may have meant Holden staying on and with them Toyota.

[nstg8a]

What you have to remember is that while Holden may not sell as many imported Commodores as they currently sell local ones, they also won't be paying for local assembly/development.

They won't need to sell x amount just to keep the factory ticking over, just sell whatever they import.

[brismike]

Originally Posted by duaned

Same as what you should do with your FPV badge. Bin it as it's a thing of the past.

Why would I take an FPV badge off of my GT and bin it?

I will be keeping my FPV GT until I cark it ..... the badges will be staying on it.

Mike

[Express]

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

Hows the german engineering line working for them with the astra? A car that was the top selling small car in the country just 10 years ago and was rubbish, now apparently they are a good thing.
I'll have to ask someone who drives one if I ever see one on the road, I'm sure I will one day.

Holden is on the nose for many, for those that still love them no LS means the new Commodore will flop.

When holden do put something on facebook about the new Commodore, the post's invariably get monstered by holden fans that are p1ss3d that the new Commodore is fwd and no v8.
It's usually a great laugh.

You obviously don’t understand the point I’m making about marketing and how getting it right and getting it wrong makes and breaks a product.

I’m saying the potential is there and you are passionately positive it will flop which sounds more fanboyish than anything else.

I could take what you’re saying and apply it to the failure of the bulk of the Ford product as well but I know the truth is the vehicles aren’t a failure, it’s the marketing.

I’ll say it again, it possible the new Euro Commodore could do well if it’s marketed right.

Not everyone wants a dual cab or an SUV.

There are over 50 manufacturers selling in Australia and most are selling multiple products and yet current figures show the VF Commodore is the number 7 in the top 10 sales which means there are a lot of vehicles selling less.

I don’t use Facebook when looking for my new car purchases so help me out and post up the links to those pages where the Holden fans are making comments about being ****ed off that the new Commodore is FWD and no V8 as it would be interesting to see their age and demographic as I have a suspicion they are possibly posts made by people who are not renowned for buying new cars to start with.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

When holden do put something on facebook about the new Commodore, the post's invariably get monstered by holden fans that are p1ss3d that the new Commodore is fwd and no v8.
It's usually a great laugh.

No different to the Ford page. Bet the majority of these people have never bought a new Falcon in their life. Facebook vitriol is justvthe evolution of forum vitriol.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by arronm

There will be no more laughing when your cammed LS3 gets its nose wiped by a twin turbo V6

Cammed Ls motors have been getting hosed by turbo sixes since 2003..

[Crazy Dazz]

People STILL buy large cars. There's now just so much more choice.
Simple fact is that cars have continued to grow, and become more powerful. Wagons were always a popular choice as the family car, now its SUVs and Hatches.

Commodore is a still a popular car, still sells a lot more than many other cars.
But there's a HUMONGOUS difference in the economies of importing an existing model, as opposed to that of local manufacturing a unique car.

Ford Australia is promising 20 different models, most of those will only sell a comparative handful.

Companies will sell anything they can make a buck on. If Holden can bring in the "Chinese Buick" and sell enough to justify assembling a RHD version, they'll do it.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by Carrion

Commondog made me LOL.

My mate refers to them as Commodes or Dunnydores.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Also I wonder about the age profile of the non-V8 private sales too. When I use to have a SV6 Sportwagon, the salesman was telling me with the traditional family buyer had moved onto SUVs and apart from enthuisasts and younger guys who bought the SSs. That by far for them the biggest buyers of Calais and CalaisV were all the original Italian and Greek immigrants in the wider region who emmigrated back in the 1950s-1960s. Some of the older blokes who traditionally bought the 6 cylinder locals are getting on in years.

I think that may be because many of them worked in the plants over the years. My grandfather worked at Holden's when he first migrated from Italy in the late 1940s, not long after they opened. Later on he worked in the Chrysler factory. I'm pretty sure he only ever bought locally assembled Holden or Chrysler/Mitsubishi vehicles - all brand new.

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by Express

You obviously don’t understand the point I’m making about marketing and how getting it right and getting it wrong makes and breaks a product.

I’m saying the potential is there and you are passionately positive it will flop which sounds more fanboyish than anything else.

I could take what you’re saying and apply it to the failure of the bulk of the Ford product as well but I know the truth is the vehicles aren’t a failure, it’s the marketing.

I’ll say it again, it possible the new Euro Commodore could do well if it’s marketed right.

Not everyone wants a dual cab or an SUV.

There are over 50 manufacturers selling in Australia and most are selling multiple products and yet current figures show the VF Commodore is the number 7 in the top 10 sales which means there are a lot of vehicles selling less.

I don’t use Facebook when looking for my new car purchases so help me out and post up the links to those pages where the Holden fans are making comments about being ****ed off that the new Commodore is FWD and no V8 as it would be interesting to see their age and demographic as I have a suspicion they are possibly posts made by people who are not renowned for buying new cars to start with.

I hear you repeating the same argument with marketing.
Lets look at the ford stable.
Mustang, almost no marketing at all, yet a 12 month plus wait due to pent up demand for such a vehicle in the marketplace.
Everest, blanket marketing (and fairly good quality imo)slow sales due to being overpriced in a saturated market.

Marketing is not the be all and end all.
Imagine if Toyota came out and said they are dropping all diesel engines in the hilux and replacing them with 4cyl and v6 petrols, a few rusted on buyers may stay on but most would jump ship to something else.
Holden dropping rwd v8s is going to have the same effect because it is the most popular choice with private buyers.

Originally Posted by vztrt

No different to the Ford page. Bet the majority of these people have never bought a new Falcon in their life. Facebook vitriol is justvthe evolution of forum vitriol.

I agree that on FB the trolls tend to take over everything, but I generally see trolls who support other brands rubbishing the others,you always get a few loud loyalists bleating but it's mostly trolls. Holden fans smashing holden is fairly unique.

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Cammed Ls motors have been getting hosed by turbo sixes since 2003..

Since 02 actually.

[russellw]

It will matter to some but for most (in fact all but the very small enthusiast sector) it won't matter a bit which end of the car is driving or where it is made.

Not much different in Ford land except more promising. Most of what is currently being sold are XR / G-Series models and because the volumes are small we are going to be left with less of a hole to fill than the Commodore requires. On current year figures, Holden needs around 2,600 units a month to replace the Commodore platform and Ford needs about 650 (1,200 if we include Territory) - which gap is clearly being currently covered by the Mustang and Ranger with a little help from Everest. Indeed Ford is just about up far enough YTD (16.5%) that the figures would still be better than 2015 if we took out all Falcon based sales (Sedan, Ute and Territory).

Cheers
Russ

[Qwerty321]

The thing a lot of people seem to forget is that a company cares purely about profits, not market share or sales. Odds are GM will make more profit selling 1000 imported Commodores a month than selling 2500 VFs. The profit margin is no doubt going to be higher with the next gen as GM will only have the expense of running one Opel factory rather than an Opel factory AND a Holden factory.

On that note, I heard that Opel were on the chopping board just like Holden were. The only difference was the Opel unions backed down and struck GM a better deal than the Holden unions. Unions are what ultimately killed local manufacturing. Someone needs to remind them that having a job is better than having a pay rise and loosing your job in 2 years. Everything past matching for inflation was pure greed on the side of the union, and as a result Opel got to keep trucking on and Holden got told to walk.