Computer Mecho's- need advice

[Paris Hilton]

Originally Posted by Rodp

I hate to tell you, but you're wrong. An IC doesn't differentiate based on the company that employs you.

Read the link I provided. You may actually learn something.

I mean that we don't work with large expensive machines, If it does get faulted, it's not the end of the world, we won't lose our jobs over it.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by Rodp

Unless you weren't aware, a static strap has a current limiting resistor in it which is rated at, oh... 1 megohm.

Indeed - i'm just making the point, 'earthing' yourself to the chassis is not the same as using a anti-static wrist strap or similar device

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by parawolf

Indeed - i'm just making the point, 'earthing' yourself to the chassis is not the same as using a anti-static wrist strap or similar device

Sorry, misunderstood. :

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Selekta

I mean that we don't work with large expensive machines, If it does get faulted, it's not the end of the world, we won't lose our jobs over it.

If you're happy to outlay a few thousand dollars on a decent machine to have it either fail prematurely or suffer a latent defect then more power to you. I'd prefer the equipment that I use to be as dependable and as reliable as I can make them.

Your comment of 'I am just saying that nothing that will effect the performace or reliability of his computer will happen' if anyone doesn't use proper ESD procedures is absolutely and 100% wrong. The largest problem with asking for tech help on the net is you'll get a lot of information that will probably put you deeper in poo.

I generally don't offer my 2c (who likes to think work when they're at home) but I guess a combination of being on call (so technically I'm being paid for my advice : ) and a build-up of reading one too many 'just stick your greasy fingers all over sensetive IC's' inspired me to add my 2c.

If you do work on machines as often as you appear to say you do then I *HIGHLY* recommend you buy a static strap and mat and take the time to read the link I provided. It'll likely save you many hours of grief down the track when the machines you built start doing goofy things.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Selekta

I don't work for a large multinational company,

It shows!

Originally Posted by Selekta

and either does rodderz.

That is probably why he has posted, knowing that many computer professionals regularly read & reply.

Originally Posted by Selekta

He won't destroy anything by not using an antistatic strap,

Wrong!! A whole industry has formed stardard practices to avoid ESD damage, the results of such damage known, as are the causes. ESD is like a silicon demolition derby, each strike may not kill instantly but WILL weaken the subject and lead to ultimate failure.

Originally Posted by Selekta

but if he feels the need to, then by all means he should buy one. I am not saying that nothing will happen, I am just saying that nothing that will effect the performace or reliability of his computer will happen.

Wrong Again!!! see above. Premature weakening will effect performance and reliability.

Originally Posted by Selekta

I have a guinea-pig machine here that I use when diagnosing a fault, so trial and error will work if Rodderz has another machine avaliable

No not necessarily, not everything is interchange able, and marginal component, may work in with motherboard or PSU but not with another, this approach is unscientific at best and wasteful at worst.

Originally Posted by Selekta

but if he doesn't, then try and use as much of the information that is avaliable before going out and purchasing parts.

Isn't wild speculative ad vice like "it's the RAM", "no hang on, it's the CPU" likely to encourage othere to neadlessly go out and buy parts that will not solve their problem.

Originally Posted by Selekta

In the past I tried to run 8 IDE devices off the single 350W PSU (with an IDE PSI controller card), and it had these exact symptoms. I have also worked with numerous other computers with similar symptoms, and it has come down to the PSU not supplying enough power. OK, it may not be the PSU, but there is a large enough chance for this to be the case, so I say yes, it is the PSU.

Why does this not surprise me? The "plug it in, and if sparks dont come out its a success method", may be a favoured method in dank bedrooms but its hardly good advice. An overloaded PSU will have entirely different symptoms to those of a whole variety of other PSU faults.

So in synopsis,
- You've dismissed out of hand the advice of several employed computer professionals.
- You've refuted a whole industries findings in regards to damage by Electrostatic Discharge.
- You've stated 2 totally unrelated components are the only possible cause for the symptoms experienced at Rodderz PC.

Do you think you are in a position to further refute the assistance and advice offered by Sour, Rodp and others? Or is over exposure to house music and speed humps actually giving you a sixth sense? Somehow I doubt the latter.

[rodderz]

Ok guys I appreciate all the advice from everyone but lets not get off subject with personal views about one another. Although i do also appreciate some pointing out potential dangers that others have exposed as to being not dangerous

My frail PC cant cope...lol

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by rodderz

Thanks Rod and others for the help in this thread

I ran the memtest again today, for nearly 6 hrs while I was out, and it did 50 passes and found no faults. However, when it just kept going and not stopping I just tried some of the options. One of them I tried was an error report on Bad RAM sectors, where it listed 1000's of errors.... confusing....

I'm not familiar with memtest86(?), does it say what the errors are? Most half reasonable memory sticks can resolve single bit errors on the fly and it's entirely reasonable to see a few from time to time. A memory address stores both the data and a parity bit so if the data has a single bit error, it can work out which bit is bung and correct it using parity. These single bit errors would probably show up as a fault but would pass a RAM test. If the frequency of these single bit errors is high, then at best you've got a potential problem down the track. Unsure what is considered a reasonable threshold of generic RAM in a PC, I've been spoiled by our equipment telling us that it's exceeded its threshold.

I must say that my PC specific knowledge is reasonably thin, but most Intel hardware shares a reasonable commonality. My machine is an Athlon 3500+ and I've got a 450W PS after having lockups and blowups of lesser PS's. I believe the Intel procs are less critical about a decent PS but I wouldn't discount it. However, you're getting the opposite symptoms to what I would expect from a underperforming PS.

Is your machine a prefab made by a large PC vendor, or is it a shop bought machine? The one (major) advantage of buying from a large vendor is the assurance that it was assembled using ESD precautions. If you ever wanted an example of the sort of strange failure an ESD'ed component can undergo, this is a classic.

As suggested by someone else, I'd start removing all external devices except a monitor during a period where you know your machine is unlikely to boot. If you got yourself a strap and a non-conductive surface and you felt comfortable I'd then start stripping non-essential devices from inside the machine to a bare bones box and attempt to boot it. System board, proc, 1 stick of mem, video card and that would be it. Then adding cards and devices one by one to see if you can isolate the problem.

Never know your luck, I've solved many problems by reseating components.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by rodderz

Ok guys I appreciate all the advice from everyone but lets not get off subject with personal views about one another. Although i do also appreciate some pointing out potential dangers that others have exposed as to being not dangerous

My frail PC cant cope...lol

Well after the little cul-de-sac of assumed knowledge, you could try some of the other rudimentary checks.
A multimeter check of the PSU supply rails
A visual check, of the motherboard in particular look for swollen electrolytic capacitors (the tall blue grey things for the non electronic.)
A clean can often help, but isn't not easy other than a rudimentary vacuum of the case without correct ASD safe equipment.

Simple things first.. I would not recommend buying any parts without thorough diagnosis, it's just wasting money.

And of course the card reseat/realignment mentioned above too.

[rodderz]

The machine was built by a mate, and updated probably the end of last year or so

As for the error checks, it was a table of letters and mumbo jumbo that I couldnt make sense of, and it didnt really offer a clear or understandable explanation

Over the next few days I'll have a look at a few things and see if i can make it work better, otherwise leave it with the mate and see if he can get it working better again

[XW 393]

hehehehehe
I would be interested in finding out how your missus sabotaged the pc !! Then you will know what it is you need to fix ! Whatever she did has worked a treat !
Now go back and spend some quality time, wrapped around her thumb !! lol

[Rodp]

LOL! Gold.

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

hehehehehe
I would be interested in finding out how your missus sabotaged the pc !! Then you will know what it is you need to fix ! Whatever she did has worked a treat !
Now go back and spend some quality time, wrapped around her thumb !! lol

It was your uncle that last touched the guts of the thing, if somethigns wrong he'll be fixing it!

Lucky the missus hasnt found the secret porn stash listed in the folder "car pics"...lol
:evilsasmo

[XW 393]

Originally Posted by rodderz

It was your uncle that last touched the guts of the thing, if somethigns wrong he'll be fixing it!

Lucky the missus hasnt found the secret porn stash listed in the folder "car pics"...lol
:evilsasmo

You had it fixed since then !
I know nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
: :

[nang3]

I had the exact same problem with mine after i installed a second hard drive.. thought it was draining the PSU so threw in a big antec mofo but same problem... never could fix it even after trying different drives, VGA cards etc..

got a new motherboard and fixed it and has never done it since.. is your motherboard a Gigabyte one??
thats the only thing i can 'assume' was causin my problems..

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by nang3

got a new motherboard and fixed it and has never done it since.. is your motherboard a Gigabyte one??
thats the only thing i can 'assume' was causin my problems..

If I was to have a mildly educated guess, that would have been my pick too.

[nang3]

although actually now that i think about it, i replaced the CPU at the same time so could have been that hehe.. damn computers!!

[davocol]

I the had exact same problem with mine and it was the video card, it would just never sit in to the mother board right. Swapped video cards never happened again. Oh yeah for the record I have been working in IT for about 5 years with more than one multinational company and have never worn an anti static strap and have done any damage to any machine with static. They are overrated, it could also be the motherboard. Not sure how heating it up gets it running better though, it would normally be the other way round. Good luck in your endeavours.

[rodderz]

Yup, the board is a Gigabyte, are they meant to be a bit unreliable over time?

[davocol]

I have found gigabyte boards to be very good, but hey all motherboards are made up of a load of soldering, capacitors etc and are like any other electrical device in that they may fail one day. With the price of ram it may be worth changing it over anyway and upgrade at the same time to say 512, leave the 256 stick out for a while and see if the problem goes. If it doesnt it's not a complete waste of money.

Originally Posted by Grey Ghost

hehehehehe
I would be interested in finding out how your missus sabotaged the pc !! Then you will know what it is you need to fix ! Whatever she did has worked a treat !
Now go back and spend some quality time, wrapped around her thumb !! lol

ahahahah how true that is, after the mrs played with the laptop (its 28 days old) nice new sexy lappy, suddenly the hdd doesnt work. (jokes)

Btw being serious now if anyone works for toshiba computers can they pm pleeze .

Back to topic.

I work for a university, in the IT Support section, we have a few computers that have come through now and again. that are just plain crap house. (not implying anyone cant build them) but this pc we got had everything replaced bar the case. after this was sorted it still played up. we couldnt get it going. (it had evil ghosts in it eheheh)

but yeah, IMO try to re-install windows 2000 or XP because if there is a RAM or HDD problem it will let you know (not always) but with a stop error. Telling you what the go is.

could be simple as a hdd cable or an intermitent problem. pcs have so many components its hard to pin point what the problem is sometimes.


please dont flame if i have forgoten something or you think you know more or less or whatever, he asked for some help and its gotten all nasty .

bah past my bedtime.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by davocol

Oh yeah for the record I have been working in IT for about 5 years with more than one multinational company and have never worn an anti static strap and have done any damage to any machine with static.

Then I highly recommend you also read the link I provided. I'll absolutely *guarantee* you've done damage to *every* machine you touched an IC in while not being correctly grounded.

[davocol]

I might do, but for me the proof is in the pudding, I have never had one machine come back with additional hardware issues and I have had multiple pcs running at home for over 5 years without an issue (any longer and they are well and truly outdated anyway). If you were to follow that site you would be afraid to touch your keyboard or switch off your monitor without an anti static strap. I am not arguing the fact that there is static and it could cause problems I am simply stating the likelihood of Rodderz damaging his pc due to static is very minimal.

[rodderz]

I must admit I've been very slack this week...i've been too busy using the computer rather than looking inside it to see whats wrong with the thing...lol

Much appreciative of everyones advice, thanks to all

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by davocol

I might do, but for me the proof is in the pudding, I have never had one machine come back with additional hardware issues and I have had multiple pcs running at home for over 5 years without an issue (any longer and they are well and truly outdated anyway). If you were to follow that site you would be afraid to touch your keyboard or switch off your monitor without an anti static strap. I am not arguing the fact that there is static and it could cause problems I am simply stating the likelihood of Rodderz damaging his pc due to static is very minimal.

In other words, you didn't bother to go to the site and actually read it.

If the proof is in the pudding then I can take you to a site I visited 5 times this month where their local IT admin does all the upgrades himself. Just one of the countless examples I could show your of ESD related failure.

I replaced a cache module on an array controller that he installed as an upgrade, corrupted his SQL database several times, sent part away for diagnosis and found that the module would pass all diagnostics but under close examination several of the chips had been damaged (likely where his fingers were when he installed it onto the card).

2 FC HBAs one that would SAN boot but hang and the other would only detect the SAN once every 4 or so boots. This is a card we've been using and installing for 3 years now in thousands of servers, I've replaced 1 in that time. He bought 4, 2 have failed in a month already.

*Countless* memory module failures. Conservative estimate of about 10 so far this year. Luckily for him our servers detect a module that reaches a threshold of single bit errors, flags the module as faulty and takes it out of the bank. Had it been a server that didn't, I'm sure I don't have to explain to you what that can do.

Like I keep on saying for those that can't be bothered to learn about their craft is the biggest problem with ESD is latent failure. Problems that are there but aren't noticeable. A reduction in the functionality or efficiency, a reduction in its service life. This isn't bull, it's REAL. Everytime you touch an IC unprotected you run the risk of latent failure, if you're lucky, you'll destroy it on the spot. A server down for a few hours beats having to restore a database from tape that takes a few days.

You're happy to comprimise the PC's you use at home and the servers that run the business you work for all because you can't be bothered to put on an anti-static strap? I just don't understand.

How sympathetic do you think upper management would be if your equipment had a serious crash causing loss of data/loss of income, had the service company repair and investigate the problem and they deduced that the problem was caused by latent failure of a component that you had installed? They ask how it could have been avoided, our reply was that if they had worn an anti-static strap that cost $20 at Dick Smith during the installation... in my experience, you'd be telling your side of the story walking.

Had Rodderz PC been put together by someone who wasn't observing propper ESD precautions, I would say in all likelyhood that a component has suffered latent failure and has manifested as the fault that he is experiencing now. Had it been one of the servers I repair, my first question would have been, 'Have you removed the cover or installed anything into this server', second question would be, "Can I please see your anti-static strap'.

[davocol]

You are obviously very passionate about static electricity and for that I can only applaud you. When I have time, I will take a read through the 6 pdfs. In the meantime I will agree to disagree.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by davocol

You are obviously very passionate about static electricity and for that I can only applaud you. When I have time, I will take a read through the 6 pdfs. In the meantime I will agree to disagree.

Just read the first one, there should be enough in that document to convince you that ESD isn't a fallacy. The reason I'm passionate about it is because the kind of latent failures I have to resolve are often difficult to diagnose, very difficult to fix while the onus and the blame is put squarely on the company I work for and at the time of repair, my ability of doing my job.

Many people that should know better in the industry know sod all about ESD and turn around and complain about the reliability of the equipment they've paid a lot of money for and not handled correctly. The common consensus is just like yours, you've built a PC at home so you're an expert in these matters and it still works so ESD is tot.

Obviously you'd acknowledge that if you walk across a carpet and touch a metal door handle you'll often feel a shock. That shock is felt at around 25,000 volts. To impart a discharge to an IC that will cause damage is around 2,000 volts. You don't feel it but the component sure does.