Sick of hearing about it!!! - Page 2

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

You have absolultly no idea do you. None at all.

and the problem is - people with ideas like this get into politics and try to fix the problem - just making it worse.

these are the same people who said in 99 that speed cameras were the answer. and they've done jack all since 99 except continue to increase the money they make each year. yet they still bury their heads in the sand trying to ignore the fact that they aren't approaching the problem correctly.

naughtyfalcon · 08-01-2006, 04:12 PM

well look at the edited post matey,,the driver of the ute lost control exceeding the speed limit of 70 kph,,it was estimated he was doing 100kph at point of impact,,the pantec was still upright and was very badly damaged underneith,,but as you weren't there so you'll never know...

klawsterfobik · 08-01-2006, 04:17 PM

I agree that speed is definately a factor in how many crashes and fatalities we are hearing about on the news at night... but i think the more important factor is that the people arent capable of handling their metal coffins on wheels at the speeds that they are capable of.

As for limiting cars to 110kph, thats ridiculous.. sometimes it is nessecerry to go over the posted limit, overtaking trucks etc... i know i certainly wouldnt want to be trying to overtake a truck and have my engine cut out and coast back down to 110. If im overtaking, my foot is flat to the floor until im clear of the car, and then i move over into my lane, and bring it back down to speed. Spending as little time in the opposite lane is safer than doing the speed limit into on coming cars.

Ive spun cars, and even a street sweeper while doing well below the speed limit, simply because i didnt adjust my driving to the conditions. The Authobahn in Germany is a briliant example, they do awesome speeds, but they also drive incredibly safe and courteously.

As was pointed out to the group when i did my Defensive Driving Course, we all most likely sped at some stage going to to course, and we were all alive and well in the room. Its inappropriate speed that will kill you, and others.

I know my kids will be doing Defensive driving courses before they get their P Plates, and they'll have an Advanced driving course done too before the end of the first year on their P plates too.

Driver Education is the ONLY way that the road toll will begin to decline.

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

well look at the edited post matey,,the driver of the ute lost control exceeding the speed limit of 70 kph,,it was estimated he was doing 100kph at point of impact,,the pantec was still upright and was very badly damaged underneith,,but as you weren't there so you'll never know...

that's great. the driver lost control of the ute.

was it raining?
what were the conditions of the tyres and brakes?
what level of driver training had the driver had to know how to correctly react in this situation?
was the windscreen cracked or dirty before impcat - imparing the drivers vision and reaction time?
was the driver suppose to be wearing glasses?
was the driver drunk or stoned?

also - if the driver was trained correctly - they would know more about the conditions they were driving in and if they were driving dangerously for those conditions.

i admitted above that speed is a factor in some accidents - and in some of those it can be the causing factor. but people who say "speed was the cause" when they are doing 75km/h in a 70km/h zone, really don't look at the senario correctly. speed would have been a minor factor - most likely not the cause of the accident though (in my 70km/h analogy).

I assume you saw my stats on the Autobahn statistics? I guess if speed was the problem on our roads - the Autobahn would just be one death after another. it's not.

naughtyfalcon · 08-01-2006, 04:17 PM

and i have no intention of going into politics and i sure as hell hate speed cameras,,
but you can justify all the power increases in cars as long as you like,,it will still lead to deaths on our roads and people like me pulling them out of mangled cars in pieces..

people will do as they want no matter how much you lecture them and show them what is right and wrong,,the individual will always think they know best and will kill someone before they realise what they were told was right..it's happens all over the world.

naughtyfalcon · 08-01-2006, 04:26 PM

i do not need to clarify the details of an accident i respond to you or any one else on these forums,,people like you try to justify things by nit picking and splitting hairs,,as i said before,,while ever there are more and more idiots driving over powered cars then the death toll will only go up not down.

i only hope that you never have to see the mess a fatal accident is first hand because you wouldn't be trying to justify and nit pick if you had...

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

people will do as they want no matter how much you lecture them and show them what is right and wrong,,the individual will always think they know best and will kill someone before they realise what they were told was right..it's happens all over the world.

some people will always be obese - pizza should be banned everywhere. because a very small portion of the population shouldn't have it - we'll take it away from everyone. that's what your saying right?

a small percentage of the population use knives as weapons. so we'll stop selling knives everywhere. you'll have to cut your avocado with a spoon. until of course someone makes that a weapon somehow, then we'll ban all spoons...

you're whole argument is drastically flawed.

if people choose to act like idiots that's their problem! don't you tell me I can't have a high performance car (one day ;)) because other people don't know how to drive safely.

The Monty · 08-01-2006, 04:27 PM

People are just as likely to crash and die in a sigma or datto as they are in an XR8 or any other highpowered car. My mate has a suzuki hatch. It goes 80, its a 500cc, but he nearly crashes it all the time because he just doesnt take his foot off the accelerator around corners as he thinks it handles awesome, (it does handle like a go-kart to as it ways about 200kgs and is lowered on stiff springs), and always ends up understeering a little and than trying to correct it. If he had some decent driver training, maybe he would drive a little better? I dont know but I think he would think about what he was doing more. Anyway, thats my 10 cents for the evening, Im Derryn Hinch, Goodnight.

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Im Derryn Hinch, Goodnight.

hehe, classic ...

naughtyfalcon · 08-01-2006, 04:28 PM

if you have to exceed the speed limit to overtake some thing then your breaking the law aren't you,,i wonder how many dead people there are that thought the same thing..

The Monty · 08-01-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadman

some people will always be obese - pizza should be banned everywhere. because a very small portion of the population shouldn't have it - we'll take it away from everyone. that's what your saying right?

a small percentage of the population use knives as weapons. so we'll stop selling knives everywhere. you'll have to cut your avocado with a spoon. until of course someone makes that a weapon somehow, then we'll ban all spoons...

you're whole argument is drastically flawed.

Then we will you sporks, hehehe.

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

if you have to exceed the speed limit to overtake some thing then your breaking the law aren't you,,i wonder how many dead people there are that thought the same thing..

and how many people on the Autobahn go well over 140km/h safely every day to overtake people?

in a recent court hearing - a motorbike was pinged for speeding (by a speed camera) when avoiding an accident (by speeding up). The court overturned the fine because it was something that he was required to do. next time you need to speed up to avoid an accident and you get capped at 110km/h and aren't able to do so, you won't be the one pulling people out of cars.

naughtyfalcon · 08-01-2006, 04:33 PM

there will never be any justification for over powering a vehicle no matter what it is..

if that is your main aim in life then i hope your not the next person i pull form a wrecked car,,or watch as the coroner takes you away in the wagon..wrapped in a black plastic bag with your name on a toe tag....

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

if you have to exceed the speed limit to overtake some thing then your breaking the law aren't you,,i wonder how many dead people there are that thought the same thing..

also - just because it's breaking the law - doesn't mean it's not the safer option.

truck is doing 105km/h. you overtake him (in a legal area) at 110km/h by crossing into the lane of traffic coming the other direction. what do you think is safer? sitting there at 110km/h or going to 120km/h to get around him quicker? one is not legal - but it's safer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Then we will you sporks, hehehe.

oh dear god!!! SPORKS !!!! hehe

The Monty · 08-01-2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

if you have to exceed the speed limit to overtake some thing then your breaking the law aren't you,,i wonder how many dead people there are that thought the same thing..

Ok, lets put you into a situation. You are following a semi-trailer. Its doing 85 in a 100 zone. You can overtake, but to do so you have to cross on to the wrong side of the road. There are no overtaking zones for a long time. So you decide to over take, you accelerate to 100, you start going down a little hill, a car comes around a corner maybe a k or so away (not to dangerous). The truck then starts to accelerate down the hill(as they do rather quickly) so that you are not passing it as fast. You are nearing the front but the other car is always getting closer. What would you do.

A:Slam your brakes on and swerve back in behind the truck, putting yourself in extreme danger.
B:Continue to go along at 100 as you dont want to speed, or youll have one of those speed related crashes that happen as soon as you go 101,
Or C:Accelerate to 110, 120, to get around safely, missing the car by along shot, and not putting anyone in too much danger.
I know what I would choose.

The Monty · 08-01-2006, 04:39 PM

Also, my Uncle died in a motorbike accident at 20 Ks an hour. Im pretty sure he wasnt speeding, as it was an 80 zone.

Psycho Chicken · 08-01-2006, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

so tell me why others need power over and beyong what the bloody things came out with..to get more power and speed,,and what does more power and speed do,,make some idiots drive faster which in turn makes them more dangerous to you and me.

You nailed it right there. It's got nothing to do with the car.

I put it to you this way; if high powered cars are the main factor of death on the roads, why aren't people on this forum taking themselves out left, right and centre?

Deadman · 08-01-2006, 05:00 PM

at the end of the day guys, some people just don't want to listen or try to understand a bit more about driver training and road saftey :(

unfortunately, neither do the politicians...

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 08-01-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

and driver training means squat when an idiot gets behind the wheel of a car with more power in the engine than the driver has brain power.

and how do i know it was speed,,well let me see,,the ute went under a 3 tonne pantec,,the bonnet smashed the driver of the ute in the face and lets see,,i saaw the official police report,,ИИИИ how could i ever know about those things,i've only been in the emergancy services for 17 years..how many accidents have you responded to???

and referred to 110 as it's the maximum posted speed limit in nsw and qld..

Hi Naughtyfalcon . Firstly, let me say thank you for doing the job you do . The emergency services people deserve a lot more thanks and respect from the community than you get .
Yes i have pulled wrecked bodies from mangled vehicles . No I am not in the emergency services. I was Actually riding shotgun in a tow truck in melbourne to learn the ropes so I could get my towies licience! He was unconcious and she in serious trouble . While we were fighting to save her life , he woke up and bolted ! In the end she survived and to this day would be remimded of what happened every minute of the day .
The crash did not involve speed . He was only doing the 60 kph signposted speed according to witnesses . It was wet and he was being a hero spinning his tyres on the wet road ! Telephone poles are much stronger than ZH fairlanes! I could tell you of a few of the horrors I have seen while working as towwie, but here is not the time or place !
It doesnt matter how much horsepower you have under the bonnet. I remember a Daihatsu charade that was wrapped around a tree in melbourne may years ago that killed all 5 teens .Still managed to break the speed limit and it was stock ! I once wanted to join the fire or police , but attending auto crashes put me of being a firie and having to tell a half asleep mother mother at 3 in the morning that her teeneged child had just been killed in a car crash is not something i could do .
While I am not surprised buy your passion, I am surprised at your view that a high horsepower vehicle is dangerous ! You are the first person in your profession I have ever encountered who doesnt beleive that poor driver control or irresponsible drivers are the main problem . Its not the bloody vehicle that is the problem , its the person in control of it ! I will modify my car anyway I choose as its MY vehicle and MY chioce . My car has loads of horsepower , and I want more ! But my car is road worthy and it can and does operate perfectly at the signposted speed limits all day every day ! So by your rational , I deserve to be involved in a fatal crash do I ? I think not ! When I drive it , I keep a very sharp eye out for the real problem . People who have no idea what they are doing behind the wheel . there are thousands of them on the roads . I am not exagerating ! I was very disapointed a couple of years back , with ИИИИ Johnson being on that TV show where they had a selected group of people who were very bad drivers! Now I dont know about you lot , but I was shaken that there are drivers on the loose , who are THAT bad at driving !Some couldnt even park or remove them selves from the car park with out making contact with other cars!

I wish I have the brains and money to form a group and personally put pressure on the politicians to address the real problems concerning the road toll. This is realy getting out of hand because 70 % or more of the uneducated population have no idea the politicians are pulling the wool over their eyes concerning this issue !

merlin · 08-01-2006, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naughtyfalcon

the only real way to lower the death tole on the roads is to stop makeing cars faster and limit them to a maximum 110 kph and if the driver tries to over speed then the engine is knocked down to idle speed till the speed of the vehicle is lowered.

i am in the emergancy services and have seen devistating accidents on perfectly good roads and on sunny clear days,why?,because one or both drivers were exceeding the posted speed limit.

I regulary sit on 140 down the M4 and am still so bored I am almost falling asleep - I'm not dead yet so I see a flaw in your argument.

Edit - let me just add, it is all about driving to the prevailing conditions rather than what arbitrary speed limit has been imposed by the RTA.

Keepleft · 08-01-2006, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Three things stand out in that page.
1# Nobody died on the road in the ACT (because they all left town to see the real world?.)
2# The only state with no speed limits (NT) was also death free, gotta be a moral there somewhere.
3# An ad for wine on the same page as the road toll stats!

Speed does'nt kill people. Lack of driver education does.

Remember though one should remember to compare ACT's geographical entity to other jurisdictions like NT. Such a small area as ACT has less geographical crash exposure risk when compared to NT. Offsetting that is ACT's larger population and resultant traffic densities which in turn increases that exposure, albiet in a much smaller area.

Bobman · 08-01-2006, 07:37 PM

If speed was such a major factor in every car accident don't you think more police fatalities would occur...

Driver training & better roads are the answers.

AlbertM · 08-01-2006, 08:43 PM

Lately I think speed is no longer the major fault of alot of accidents. Fatigue and getting into trouble now is.

I did alot of driving around NSW over the break and the all over speed off other drivers was fairly well behaved. However I did notice alot of swerving, wandering and some very stupid breaking moves.

Rodp · 08-01-2006, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicked

If speed was such a major factor in every car accident don't you think more police fatalities would occur...

Silly argument. Firstly they're better trained as you've alluded below. Secondly, the speed you're travelling certainly has a major factor if you collide with another object. A collision at 50kph is more likely going to be more favourable than a collision at 150kph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wicked

Driver training & better roads are the answers.

A combination of both, certainly.. but who's going to pay for it? :(

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 08-01-2006, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodp

but who's going to pay for it? :(

User pays rodp, like everything ! Ok so its going to cost dollars, but how much do you put on someones life ? The cost to Australia for just 1 fatal crash is phanominal . Not sure how much but it costs tens of thousands of dallars when one happens and that isnt counting the loss of a life or the injured survivers. If we can prevent some or alot of them happening , many people will be better off !

Panda · 09-01-2006, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodp

...A combination of both, certainly.. but who's going to pay for it?...

How about the revenue (sorry....fines) from the Greed (sorry....Speed) Cameras??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollin

...they spend so many millions of dollars on "speed kills" advertising...

If speed kills, why was the NT death toll 0?? Again. Speed kills remember? Northern Territory has thousands of kilometres of highway with NO SPEED LIMIT. Why aren't there more people dying in the Northern Territory damnit? It just keeps on happening every holiday season.

I don't care about 'geographical entity' and 'crash exposure risk' or 'traffic densities' in the same way that the government doesn't care about other influencing factors in a crash such as driver training, vehicle condition, road condition, weather conditions etc etc etc. It's always because they were travelling above the posted speed limit.

They keep on spewing out this 'Speed Kills' crap when it obviously does not. Just makes good justification for setting up more speed cameras.

Panda

AUIII XR8 MAN · 09-01-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Think about it for a second. 30 years ago we had giant metal boxes with heavy chrome bumpers, crumple zones were only just being introduced, inertia real seat belts were only just coming about, steering columns were solid, cars had 14x5 inch wheels wrapped with crappy bias ply tyres, side impact protection was unheard of.

Now days we've got air bags front and side, seat belt pretensioners, crumple zones that would write a car off in a 50 kph crash, doors that weigh twice as much due to side impact protection, ABS, traction control, power steering standard on everything, road tyres that have more grip than slicks of the 70's, etc, etc, etc.

Look at all that, factor in the number of accidents today and it's a wonder anyone drove a car in the 70's and lived to tell the tale.

Back in the 70's people didn't have all these "safe cars" so they drove a little more carefully. Now days people have all these "safe car" & think "i be right this car can protect me from anything i hit" attitude.

Outbackjack · 09-01-2006, 04:01 AM

Hi all, thought I would chime in here. I live in the NT. Have done for about 5 years. It is true that the road toll out here over the chrissy period was zero. That is a good thing. We do have fatalities out here, but not too often. But in almost every fatal accident there are a few common themes. Quite often we hear of a camper troopie swerving off the road and rolling a few times taking out a couple tourists. What seems to happen here is the tourist driver gets all exited about being able to "speed" and not get a ticket. Problem is they are not well versed in the skill of driving quickly on open roads. And a troopie is not the kind of vehicle to do any more than 100k anyway. Once you put two wheels into the gravel on the side of the road you are in a very dangerous situation.

Another common themes is the 1980's vintage ford (sorry guys, the community people out here love them) that never sees any maintenance somehow finds itself on its roof. These cars are almost always over loaded. I have seen 11 people get out of a 5 seater car!! So often these rollovers are caused by thread bare tyres that explode with devistating results. Alcohol is also a common factor with these people.

Of couse there many other types of accident out here, but these type mishaps are by far the most common.

Where I work, there many "high performance" cars and bikes owned by the people I work with. We have everything from 350Z's (about 6 of them) and countless XR8's, SS comodo's, moonaros, vintage mustangs, one of the nicest original XY GTHO's I have ever seen. There has never been a serious accident involving any of these cars, ever. Up until recently we had about 5 klms of "open" speed limit on the drive to work. It was always awsome fun to push the go pedal down this nice long wide stretch of highway. About 4 or 5 months ago the local gov posted the open highway at 100klms per hour. Why? you guessed it. We had two of our people killed one night turning off the highway onto our access road. They were in a rented camry, they were taken out by a troopie and another car coming the other way. Both travelling at crazy speeds. It was just on dusk.

From my experince, accidents happen because of ignorance and lack of skill. When in-experienced people get behind the wheel of ANY car and drive beyong their ability there are going to be accidents.

Statements that advocate the governing of vehicle speeds is just plain simplistic and silly. Mandatory driver training is part of the answer. Proper licence programs, like pilot training, should be introduced. But I dont know of any politician that has the guts to introduce it. And of course the cost should be carried by the budding driver.

BTW, you can be booked out here for speeding in the open sections of highway.... They call it "dangerous driving". But then it is incumbent on the cops to prove you were driving dangerously. I have never heard of anyone getting booked for this. Also the NT cops have XR8 persuit cars. They look kinda cool.....
Just my 2cents. More education and less legislation.

Blue Oval Mopar Man · 09-01-2006, 04:11 AM

Well said outback , especially the bit about no politician having the guts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!There is the main reason people will keep needlessly dying in record numbers on our roads !!!

Rodp · 09-01-2006, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue Oval Mopar Man

User pays rodp, like everything ! Ok so its going to cost dollars, but how much do you put on someones life ? The cost to Australia for just 1 fatal crash is phanominal . Not sure how much but it costs tens of thousands of dallars when one happens and that isnt counting the loss of a life or the injured survivers. If we can prevent some or alot of them happening , many people will be better off !

Was talking more about the roads than driver training when it came to costs.

The gumbyment had the 4x4 scheme where 4c per litre was tacked onto petrol specifically for roads in NSW, but when queried they admitted that it just went into combined revenue. So apparently user pays isn't really working since there are many roads in need of repair.

Roads are a large problem in Australia since we have a large land mass without the taxpayers to fund road repair/improvements. I'm already taxed to the hilt, how much more can I be slugged?!

The problem with comparing the cost of driver training/road improvement vs a life is that not all fatal accidents are caused by a lack of these two. I don't think there's a car enthusiast that doesn't believe that driver training needs to be improved I just don't think that enough money will ever be spent on upgrading roads.