Can You Hear The Drums Mitsubishi ?

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Remeber that during the EA Ford were only producing 180 cars a day compared to the 522-550 a day (this is going to be reduced very soon).

Yeah but mitsi is selling 700 a month ,it will be sad to see them go,but it is inebidible.

Reminds me of when nissan bowed out of the local market,except in their case they went from making one most relaible australian cars ever built (r31 series skylines),not to mention rwd,to making a fwd dog like the pintara(and trying to export a car that was already availble in japan back to the japanese).
Then theres the avalon............

Goes to show,rwd sells large cars in Austraila.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by csv8

Not one ad on tv last night for the 380. Lancer, Outlander, yes. How do they expect to sell cars ,if they don't advertise????????

They have pulled all the ads for a relaunch of the 380.

[Joes_meat]

They should have had RWD and a V8/forced induction 6 option.

It's a competitive market against the Falcon and Commodore, but Chrysler have great sales of their 300C, which competes against the Statesman and Fairlane.

And the Chrysler's a ИИИИ car.

[9lives]

: Shame really finally got evo to oz now its gunna be gone again.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by 9lives

: Shame really finally got evo to oz now its gunna be gone again.

Evo Lancer has nothing to do with the 380. So how did you conclude that the Evo will disappear from Australia?

FF

[Big Mike]

What the hell is wrong with you people? Commodore is the only Holden made here, where the hell do you think the Viva/Astra/Vectra/Barina/Tigra/whatever other ИИИИ comes from? Where the hell do you think every other car in the Ford or Mitsubishi line-ups come from besides Falcon and 380???? Seriously people I am astounded. IF the 380 was to cease production here (and all the locals get massive payouts - its not like they're on the dole all of a sudden); Mitsubishi will still exist, dealerships, service departments, spare parts outlets will all still be here - and they would import the gay American/Japanese Gallant to replace the local 380 - which is a vastly superior car to the Gallant; and would have absolutely no effect on any other Mitsi product, servicing, warranty, etc. They are the only company with a 5 year 130,000km bumper-to-bumper warranty, with 10 years/160,000 powertrain warranty. And the ONLY manufacturer without the small print in their warranty about the definition of "wear and tear" and what parts aren't covered. Yes the ONLY manufacturer without a wear and tear policy. Whatsmore, that warranty policy covers everything from Colts and Lancers thru to Pajeros and Tritons.

As for the front-wheel-drive debate, well surely everyone KNOWS that 80% of the cars in the world are front-wheel-drive, and regardless of your acquired tastes or experience, it IS ACTUALLY superior. I own three cars, all of them RWD - but I am NOT ignorant to the fact, having experienced first hand, the FWD TJ Magnas' superiority over BA XT and VX Exec at one Mallala Raceway, organised by race drivers in conjunction with the manufacturers - to highlight the positives and negatives of all their vehicles with select top salespeople from all brands. Rather than half the car pushing and the other half clawing around the corner, and the fun of balancing it etc., a properly engineered FWD (admittedly only from Series 2 TJ Magna on) can pull and steer from the same end, resulting in MUCH safer more predictable handling - once you get over your cave-man age RWD push rod cast iron obsessions.

Unfortunately, when MMAL where brave in the past and introduced awesome cars like the 3000GT, it flopped. MMJ would have nothing to do with the Ralliart Magna - and was entirely funded and warrantied by MMAL - an awesome car, better and faster than an AU XR8 and VT 5.0L V8, and from memory an automatic GenIII too - but it flopped. Following which, MMJ refuse to allow a sporty car - which is exactly what the market here needs - to be built for Oz. They EVEN refused MMAL permission to fit larger than 15" wheels on VR-Xs etc. - MMAL got around this by making the VR-X an option pack in their systems, rather than a model, but still such fastidious interfering is an example of why its going to ИИИИ.

The 380 is a fantastic car - and in a perfect world would shine. However, with all the limitations and draw backs, all the ИИИИ Tom Phillips had to deal with, has left them with a make-or-break car, on par with a Vectra - it is sadly NOT a superior Falcon/Commodore equivelant. And we wonder why he left as soon as he could!!! As for why I left the industry, certainly the old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud mentalities of the ИИИИies running some of the dealerships - trying to sell all their Magnas before they sell 380s, like was mentioned above sticking Magnas or Lancers out the front - or like at my old yard with three white standard cars parked parallel, and locked - when I could make a great display each day of sporty hot looking cars and actually get people into the dealership - this old bastard mentality is one of the main reasons I left the industry. I believe it was a simillar mentallity Mr. Phillips had to tollerate for so long that eventually saw his demise too.

Another point of concern when I was involved, was that all the money the state government poured into MMAL, but they never bought the product until the very end - I think 5,000 Mitsubishi's compared with 33,000 Holdens and 28,000 Fords from memory in SA were purchased over a given period by the SA Government (thank you Mr. Rann). Surely the Magna, an equivelant size and power car to Commodore and Falcon should have been nominated equally. Though something else you don't hear about: How much money the government puts into Holdens and NOT Mitsubishi - much like how they put more into private schools than public; how of a few hundred volluntary redundancies here and there pale in insignificance to the thousands of people who lost their jobs when Holden decided to outsource all their supplies from overseas AND cut the third shift; How much Ford and Holden recieve from their parent companies - be it dollars, designs, solutions, management, etc., vs what Mitsubishi recieved and how much they had to achive here on their own.

A comment was made above about MMAL building TW wagons inbetween DB 380s; well the DB doesn't come as a wagon, and given Colt/Lancer/Outlander/Grandis/Pajero are all 5-door wagons or have wagon varients, hardly necessary. The TW may have continued in other markets around the world - certainly they had LHD KJ Veradas (Diamontés) and RHD TL/KL cars one after the other when I was down there last - old and new together for different markets - a real eye opener how a manufacturing plant can make completely different models on the some line like that. I don't know the story now, but the TW/KW may still be sold internationally and built simultaneously with the DB car.

Shall I go on? Maybe not. Maybe that's my two cents for tonight. Enjoy, argue, whatever. If I'm on my soapbox, its because I AM right, not because I think I might be.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Remeber that during the EA Ford were only producing 180 cars a day compared to the 522-550 a day (this is going to be reduced very soon).

What the hell are you on about?
550 a day is 16500 a month : They dont make anywhere near that many.

Also Ford Oz in 1990 were building a hell of a lot more cars that 180 a day, back then they had the Laser and Capri, ontop of the Falcon figure.

[BA_Turbs]

Big Mike,

Thank you for showing me that my BA XR6 Turbo is a pre-historic piece of gear. Also, thanks for drawing our attention to what vastly suerior vehicles all FWD cars are over RWD. I assume as you made such a abroad statement that any FWD car can perform any given requirement better than any given RWD car? Excellent. By the way, 80% of the world have their steering wheel on the left side of the car, does that make them more correct than us?

And finally, thanks for summing it all up for us by. after rubbishing them throughout your entire post, admitting that both the Falcon and Commodore are better cars than the 380.

Regards,

BA_Turbs

QUACK!!!

[fordy-two]

Such a disappointment that the supposed car of the future for Mitsubishi does not have an AWD option like the previous Magna, nor does it have curtain airbags . What were they thinking ?

Is there any traction or stability control ? Read the tea-leaves people ! Learn from Subaru ! Or even Ford. Modern cars have more performance and better handling than most people will ever need, the future lies in safety.

Typical of Mitsubishi: they strive for the sublime only to lose confidence in their product and falter at the final hurdle. Spend $600 million to develop it then penny-pinch at the end just in case people don't like it.

Imagine the selling points it would have if it produced a car with all the safety options as standard across the range ? It would stand out from the pack and be a big winner with Fleet buyers in the Health and Safety driven world in which we now live.

I can only hope that they survive and learn and that the update model rectifies these glaring omissions.


...and yes, with only two, I do suffer from air-bag envy.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

What the hell is wrong with you people? Commodore is the only Holden made here, where the hell do you think the Viva/Astra/Vectra/Barina/Tigra/whatever other ИИИИ comes from? Where the hell do you think every other car in the Ford or Mitsubishi line-ups come from besides Falcon and 380???? Seriously people I am astounded. IF the 380 was to cease production here (and all the locals get massive payouts - its not like they're on the dole all of a sudden); Mitsubishi will still exist, dealerships, service departments, spare parts outlets will all still be here - and they would import the gay American/Japanese Gallant to replace the local 380 - which is a vastly superior car to the Gallant; and would have absolutely no effect on any other Mitsi product, servicing, warranty, etc. They are the only company with a 5 year 130,000km bumper-to-bumper warranty, with 10 years/160,000 powertrain warranty. And the ONLY manufacturer without the small print in their warranty about the definition of "wear and tear" and what parts aren't covered. Yes the ONLY manufacturer without a wear and tear policy. Whatsmore, that warranty policy covers everything from Colts and Lancers thru to Pajeros and Tritons.

As for the front-wheel-drive debate, well surely everyone KNOWS that 80% of the cars in the world are front-wheel-drive, and regardless of your acquired tastes or experience, it IS ACTUALLY superior. I own three cars, all of them RWD - but I am NOT ignorant to the fact, having experienced first hand, the FWD TJ Magnas' superiority over BA XT and VX Exec at one Mallala Raceway, organised by race drivers in conjunction with the manufacturers - to highlight the positives and negatives of all their vehicles with select top salespeople from all brands. Rather than half the car pushing and the other half clawing around the corner, and the fun of balancing it etc., a properly engineered FWD (admittedly only from Series 2 TJ Magna on) can pull and steer from the same end, resulting in MUCH safer more predictable handling - once you get over your cave-man age RWD push rod cast iron obsessions.

Unfortunately, when MMAL where brave in the past and introduced awesome cars like the 3000GT, it flopped. MMJ would have nothing to do with the Ralliart Magna - and was entirely funded and warrantied by MMAL - an awesome car, better and faster than an AU XR8 and VT 5.0L V8, and from memory an automatic GenIII too - but it flopped. Following which, MMJ refuse to allow a sporty car - which is exactly what the market here needs - to be built for Oz. They EVEN refused MMAL permission to fit larger than 15" wheels on VR-Xs etc. - MMAL got around this by making the VR-X an option pack in their systems, rather than a model, but still such fastidious interfering is an example of why its going to ИИИИ.

The 380 is a fantastic car - and in a perfect world would shine. However, with all the limitations and draw backs, all the ИИИИ Tom Phillips had to deal with, has left them with a make-or-break car, on par with a Vectra - it is sadly NOT a superior Falcon/Commodore equivelant. And we wonder why he left as soon as he could!!! As for why I left the industry, certainly the old-fashioned stick-in-the-mud mentalities of the ИИИИies running some of the dealerships - trying to sell all their Magnas before they sell 380s, like was mentioned above sticking Magnas or Lancers out the front - or like at my old yard with three white standard cars parked parallel, and locked - when I could make a great display each day of sporty hot looking cars and actually get people into the dealership - this old bastard mentality is one of the main reasons I left the industry. I believe it was a simillar mentallity Mr. Phillips had to tollerate for so long that eventually saw his demise too.

Another point of concern when I was involved, was that all the money the state government poured into MMAL, but they never bought the product until the very end - I think 5,000 Mitsubishi's compared with 33,000 Holdens and 28,000 Fords from memory in SA were purchased over a given period by the SA Government (thank you Mr. Rann). Surely the Magna, an equivelant size and power car to Commodore and Falcon should have been nominated equally. Though something else you don't hear about: How much money the government puts into Holdens and NOT Mitsubishi - much like how they put more into private schools than public; how of a few hundred volluntary redundancies here and there pale in insignificance to the thousands of people who lost their jobs when Holden decided to outsource all their supplies from overseas AND cut the third shift; How much Ford and Holden recieve from their parent companies - be it dollars, designs, solutions, management, etc., vs what Mitsubishi recieved and how much they had to achive here on their own.

A comment was made above about MMAL building TW wagons inbetween DB 380s; well the DB doesn't come as a wagon, and given Colt/Lancer/Outlander/Grandis/Pajero are all 5-door wagons or have wagon varients, hardly necessary. The TW may have continued in other markets around the world - certainly they had LHD KJ Veradas (Diamontés) and RHD TL/KL cars one after the other when I was down there last - old and new together for different markets - a real eye opener how a manufacturing plant can make completely different models on the some line like that. I don't know the story now, but the TW/KW may still be sold internationally and built simultaneously with the DB car.

Shall I go on? Maybe not. Maybe that's my two cents for tonight. Enjoy, argue, whatever. If I'm on my soapbox, its because I AM right, not because I think I might be.

Ermm we already know that Mitsubishi Motors will continue selling imported vehicle in Australia regardless of the 380 outcome, but at the end of the day Australia cant afford to have up to 3000 people lose their jobs from the one industry when the other 3 competitors are also finding it hard. Toyota may be leading the sales race, but their sales are built upon imported cars, not Australian built Camry's or Avalons.

Id buy a 380 VRX over a Honda Accord or a Nissan Maxima anyday, they are a nice car but are poorly marketed especially at dealer level, I just hope for the sake of everyone that works at the SA plant that things stay on the rails.

[Joes_meat]

RWD cars handle better than FWD cars. But can be harder for a novice to handle. i.e. oversteer vs. understeer.

They also stop quicker (better weight distribution.)

Lets think about pretty much every single type of racing and what wheels they drive with. Nearly all RWD or AWD.

The real reason that 80% of new cars are FWD - is cost. They're cheaper to build. They slap the motor, trans, various components, and the driveline together outside of the car. Then they drop it into the front of the car in one piece. Where as the components of a RWD car needsto be put in individually.

[GOLDIE]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

What the hell are you on about?
550 a day is 16500 a month : They dont make anywhere near that many.

Also Ford Oz in 1990 were building a hell of a lot more cars that 180 a day, back then they had the Laser and Capri, ontop of the Falcon figure.

550 Cars a day is only 11000 if take it at 20 working days a month some months there might be a couple more.

This out put would also include the utes, territory and the falcon,fairlane,ltd,and the fpv range up till what needs to be put on in there section.
Also note this will also include the sales of the falcon and not sure territory to nz and the territory exports to south africa so if take all that into account between 550 to 560 cars a day would be right.

Ian

PS i forgot to had that the laser was still being assembled in sydney at that time if they were not than correct me.

[Dave_au]

Lets stop the fwd vs rwd debate because we all know where those threads end up.

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Such a disappointment that the supposed car of the future for Mitsubishi does not have an AWD option like the previous Magna, nor does it have curtain airbags . What were they thinking ?

They were thinking a lot, they were thinking awd, they were thinking turbo. They were also thinking a couple of different engine classes, IIRC the 175kw we have now was going to be the mid-tier engine.

But they were unable to get Japan to sign off on the plans (ie fund the car to have the better components), so now we have the 380 we have now.

[csv8]

Mitsu 380 modern Leyland P76 ????

[9lives]

If mitsu decides to shut down ops altogether in aust....

[Big Mike]

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Such a disappointment ... does not have an AWD

I agree, the AWD Magna was an amazing piece of kit - even better than the FWD at pulling hard through the turns - imagine a 90 degree turning right at traffic lights for example - as opposed to a rear drive of course which simply cannot be floored and expect to round said corner in one piece.

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Is there any traction or stability control? Imagine the selling points it would have if it produced a car with all the safety options as standard across the range ? It would stand out from the pack and be a big winner with Fleet buyers in the Health and Safety driven world in which we now live.

The new DB 380, just like the TW/KW range, and the TL/KL range before it had FOUR airbags standard accross the range. And climate control, cruise, FOUR electric windows, power seats (6-way in the base model). Also ABS and EBD - something most people still don't have - and everything but the base had Traction and Trace control. They all had pyrotechnic seat belt retractors in all four outboard seats, with load limitters fitted to all five, brakeaway pedals and so on and so forth. AND, the fleet guys were selling 80 to 100 per month when I was invloved - but clearly they don't have enough marketting behind it, enough fleet guys perhaps, who knows - the other manufacturers with fundamentally inferior products certainly have the numbers.

Originally Posted by fordy-two

Spend $600 million to develop it then penny-pinch at the end just in case people don't like it.

Yep that's MMJ to a tee.

Originally Posted by Dave AU

Lets stop the fwd vs rwd debate

I'm cool with that. Its a shame, but yes we live in an old fashioned society horrifically fearful of any change or improvements. A PERFECT example is of all the criticism of the XR6 Turbo and Typhoon models and how they, with their technological wizardry, can infact be quicker than the big V8's Aussies (including me) have grown up loving.

Originally Posted by Joe's Meat

The real reason that 80% of new cars are FWD - is cost

Yes they are much cheaper and easier to build and maintain. They also eliminate all the vibrations and NVH a rear drive can have, and the danger of a tailshaft coming through the floor in the case of a crash or mechanical failure. But we're not debating the small-mindedness of us Aussies vs the technological refinement found throughout the rest of the world - we're debating the future of Mitsubishi and whether they can here the drums already as the technologically better 380 fails to hit the mark, as it doesn't appeal to what WE as Aussies like and want to buy. Even way back when they were the first for AWD, the first for 4-srs, the first with tiptronic, all those things that made them "better" there was still nothing about it that made you WANT one. THAT dear peoples is Mitsubishi's biggest problem, and one it won't overcome without the independance and trust of MMJ Mr. Phillips fought so long and hard for. And that, sadly, I feel is a shame.

[Windsor220]

I'm currently working at a Mitsubishi dealership and have for 4 of the last 5 years. The Magna has always had better build qaulity and been more refined than the falcodore equivelants but as Big Mike said they just lack that something that makes you want to buy one.

The new 380 still has the same problems. Too bland and no performance models to attract buyers. IMO i thought Mitsubishi were on the right track with the TJ by introducing an AWD option and having the range topping Ralliart magna. If only they worked on that but instead they brought out the hideous looking TL that was back to FWD only and about 3 different models. Im yet to drive the 380 but no matter how it goes I doubt I would want to buy one.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by KJLynx

I'm currently working at a Mitsubishi dealership and have for 4 of the last 5 years.....

.....they brought out the hideous looking TL that was back to FWD only.....

You obviously don't know the products you are selling. I have seen and driven AWD versions of the last Magna models. Here is an article about a KL Verada GTVi with AWD - link.

FF

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

You obviously don't know the products you are selling. I have seen and driven AWD versions of the last Magna models. Here is an article about a KL Verada GTVi with AWD - link.

FF

Well there you go.

By the way I dont sell them, I just work on them.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

I'm cool with that. Its a shame, but yes we live in an old fashioned society horrifically fearful of any change or improvements. A PERFECT example is of all the criticism of the XR6 Turbo and Typhoon models and how they, with their technological wizardry, can infact be quicker than the big V8's Aussies (including me) have grown up loving.

Yep, I'll lay my cars on the table, I've got a TJ2 Sports in my driveway atm, not because I wanted one but it was the best car for me at that price range at this time for what I'm doing. But there is no point sitting on FFAU singing the benefits (or disadvantages of) fwd, it would be akin to logging onto LS1AU and saying why you believe the falcon is a better car. ie, don't waste your time!

[Big Mike]

KJLynx/Falcon Freak:
Actually, the AWD in TJ2 was in a half Exec/Advance spec car, a Sports, and Verada Ei spec. The horny Magna VR-X and Verada GTVi remained FWD, as AWD was supposed to be a safety point rather than a sporting point - heaven forbid Aussie's might buy it if it was marketted as sporty. Same kinda line up for smilley TL - which I found most mechanics thought it ugly, most salespeople thought it sharp (after hearing Olivier Boulay's personal introduction and reveal) - public vote predominantly ugly. For the last-ditch effort the "W" series (TW Magnas, KW Veradas with long bumpers) the full sports VR-X could be optioned in AWD, whilst the LS (Advance/Futura spec) was ONLY awd, and the Verada GTVi (pictured in link above) was also ONLY awd - as I think it should have been all along. Luxury FWD Berlina/Calais equivelants, and AWD Calais International equivelant. Makes so much more sense. And, if we're to lay down all our cards, I was actually there when the call came through that "the new platform (was) NOT under any circumstances to be developed as an AWD car until it (had) proven itself in the marketplace".

Dave_AU:
I appreciate your honesty and fully understand your point of view. I thought by owning three RWD's I could maintain the same argument I would at the car yards, though I fully understand the irony, and intend not to waste said time.

As for unemployment, yes there are people working at the MMAL factory. However, there are far more people throught SA and all over the country who have LOST their jobs due to Holden outsourcing all components off-shore. A massive new Lear factory was built at Elizabeth 12 months or so ago, to support Mitsubishi's future (previously they made ALL there seats in-house), and Holden's growth and introduction of third shift. Now Holden has just signed contracts with overseas suppliers, I wonder can Lear support a "voluntary redundancy scheme" or will their workers, managers, contractors, etc. all be out on their ИИИИ.

[Mechan1k]

They should have just continued selling the TJ shape ... hee hee
They'd at least make some sort of a profit ... it's about the only decent model Magna they produced.

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

They should have just continued selling the TJ shape .......

If it was up to Mitsubishi Australia then that would have been the case. However the Mitsubishi head office was pushing the new Oliver Boulay inspired corporate look and that is where MMAL's woes began.

FF

[Kenster]

Originally Posted by aimzes

but dont you drive a BA which has rather "audi-esque" looks?

i like the 380. its a good looking car imo and i find that its has (like most magnas) a better build quality than ford/holden inside and out. disagree? i dont care.

id like to buy one, but what happens if/when mitsu aust goes bust? how will that effect spare parts, resale etc?

likely chance with mitsubishi part will probably sell for 10yrs for all current car owner than no more just like what Datsun did when they crash in the Aust car market.

Im just guessing here but just keep an eye on the papers and news, not to mention there goes another few thousand people off work now :

[fordy-two]

It's true, it's true, no matter how good they are there's just something about Magna/380/Mitsubishi that makes you not want one (which doesn't explain why someone stole my then 14 y.o. Magna Elante, but that's another story).

Maybe it's the fuddy duddy interior ?

Anyway, I can't post anymore threads till Falcon Freak changes his avatar, it's too mesmerising.

*changes desktop background to alluring japanese lady - damn it, it doesn't keep swaying*
*changes back to original desktop*
*sighs*

[Paxton]

The TL magna isn't an ugly car, especially in VR-X guise.



The first one off the Magna Forums. (Yes I am a member there, I signed up when the PS41 was announced). My Mother has a Magna similar to that, and, although it is Front Wheel Drive, it goes, and sounds sensational with the stock exhaust.

If MMAL kept the TJ front end, how dated would it have looked today? It looked fine in 2001 when it was released, however, unlike many Ford/Holden designs, it would have looked dated on the road today.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

What the hell are you on about?
550 a day is 16500 a month : They dont make anywhere near that many.

Also Ford Oz in 1990 were building a hell of a lot more cars that 180 a day, back then they had the Laser and Capri, ontop of the Falcon figure.

Hahaha 520 - 550 is what they were producing a day if there wasn't problems (trust me I see it every weekday). Also they dont produce cars on the weekend and they also have production days off to maintain equipment and trial mew models on the line. Also they do build territory's.
However this is slowing down due to the fact that the sale of large cars is slowing down.
The figure of 180 cars was quoted by Tom Gorman so I'll take his word. It probably was 180 Falcons a day.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by Paxton

The TL magna isn't an ugly car, especially in VR-X guise.

Yes it is!
Ugly ugly ugly

The Model jsut beofre it looked Pretty good tho (except I hated the Huge Bigassed wing on the boot)



Still, beauty's the the eye of the beerholder. I had someone tell me Barras were boring looking cars (And he was looking at my SR at the time... he didnt knw it was mine)

[MoreHPformyXR6]

I think the TL in VR-X trim is not a ugly car at all (i think its quite a good looking car espically with bigger wheels & slammed) betta looking than the previous model IMO

[Dave_au]

The TL in VRX guise does grow on you. Funny thing is really the only thing wrong with the boulay design was the dispropotionate size of the front lamps. Had the head lights been kept in a ratio similiar to the boulay lancer, and more angular than curved back, then it probably would have been a seller.

Originally Posted by Falcon Freak

If it was up to Mitsubishi Australia then that would have been the case. However the Mitsubishi head office was pushing the new Oliver Boulay inspired corporate look and that is where MMAL's woes began.

Apparently MMAL did have a clay car for the "TL facelift" before Boulay was involved, just a modern update of the TJ. From the reports that I've heard it was a good looking car. Wish I could have seen the images of what might have been.