Russia v Ukraine

[burnz]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

There's experts on here? But you don't need to be an expert to understand that Putin cares what some people think. If enough Russians start to think that they would be better off with different leadership he would care. He would remember what happened to the Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceausescu in 1989. The people rebelled against Ceausescu. He lost power, the army turned against him, he was tried, found guilty then taken outside and shot immediately. From start to finish all over in less than a week.

https://www.youtube.com/c/JoeBlogs/videos
That's the link I forgot to add to the previous post; an expert who looks at the economic consequences of this war.

your of the opinion he's doing something wrong!!
did anybody check with the Russians in donbass/donetsk?? two separate state's under the protection of russia.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Are we really going to squabble about numbers? Have a look at the displacement in general.

Simply asking for proof of the assertion.

It's the "butchering of thousands of men,women and children" statement that raises my eyebrows.

It's usually unqualified propoganda rhetoric.

Demonize your enemy to appear subhuman is propoganda 101.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

. If enough Russians start to think that they would be better off with different leadership he would care.

.

One must not confuse hypothetical speculation with reality.

It ain't gunna happen.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by burnz

your of the opinion he's doing something wrong!!
did anybody check with the Russians in donbass/donetsk?? two separate state's under the protection of russia.

Yes, in my view Putin is a serial killer and a war criminal. He has sent Russian tanks into Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine. The list of his personal enemies who have turned up dead by poisoning, shooting, strangulation or sudden falls from windows is long. He has sent hitmen into England twice to poison people who were no real threat to him.

Putin and his ex KGB colleagues looted the Russian economy and stole everything. Look into how the Russian oligarchs got their wealth; Putin is richer than all of them. They transferred the wealth of Russia into their own personal bank accounts.

If this war continues and the supply of wheat and other grains from Ukraine is disrupted then the poor nations in Africa which depend on that will face mass starvation. Putin may go down in history along with Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler as one of the great genocidal killers of the modern age.

The borders of Ukraine have existed for over a hundred years. There were no "separate states" until Russia announced that there were. It's just a coincidence that these areas that suddenly want to be part of Russia contain a lot of the good ports, the heavy manufacturing industry, significant mineral and gas deposits and rich farmland. Strange how the Russians are not so keen to claim back the area around Chernobyl.

[MITCHAY]

It will be interesting to see what happens next week. The "special operation" might turn into a "declared" war in which case he loses face by any objective measure. It has been a war since the start.

But with that it means they can tap more resources which is not good, more meat for the grinder. A long odds bet is he pulls a Dubya "misson accomplished banner" type of thing. I mean he has called it a "special operation" all this time so stranger things have happened

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Yes, in my view Putin is a serial killer and a war criminal. He has sent Russian tanks into Chechnya, Georgia and Ukraine. The list of his personal enemies who have turned up dead by poisoning, shooting, strangulation or sudden falls from windows is long. He has sent hitmen into England twice to poison people who were no real threat to him.

Give us a list of countries you reckon are squeaky clean ?

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Putin and his ex KGB colleagues looted the Russian economy and stole everything. Look into how the Russian oligarchs got their wealth; Putin is richer than all of them. They transferred the wealth of Russia into their own personal bank accounts.

You can not prove any of that.

Originally Posted by PhilT2

If this war continues and the supply of wheat and other grains from Ukraine is disrupted then the poor nations in Africa which depend on that will face mass starvation. Putin may go down in history along with Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and Hitler as one of the great genocidal killers of the modern age.

So...now...we need Russia to feed the world?
And if they don't they are being unreasonable?

Originally Posted by PhilT2

The borders of Ukraine have existed for over a hundred years. There were no "separate states" until Russia announced that there were. It's just a coincidence that these areas that suddenly want to be part of Russia contain a lot of the good ports, the heavy manufacturing industry, significant mineral and gas deposits and rich farmland. Strange how the Russians are not so keen to claim back the area around Chernobyl.

In your opinion...you forgot to say that.
In any event if you want to contrast historical transgressions ask how the Australian Aborigines feel about you stealing all their resources now...

[zilo]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It will be interesting to see what happens next week. The "special operation" might turn into a "declared" war in which case he loses face by any objective measure. It has been a war since the start.

But with that it means they can tap more resources which is not good, more meat for the grinder. A long odds bet is he pulls a Dubya "misson accomplished banner" type of thing. I mean he has called it a "special operation" all this time so stranger things have happened

Hmmm...where have I heard all this before...

Not Putin's original idea ..how about...

Operation Desert Storm
Operation Iraqi freedom

Oh and the best...
We have prevailed ...
Mission accomplished.

Just the little detail of Isis to sort out....

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by zilo

Give us a list of countries you reckon are squeaky clean ?




You can not prove any of that.



So...now...we need Russia to feed the world?
And if they don't they are being unreasonable?




In your opinion...you forgot to say that.
In any event if you want to contrast historical transgressions ask how the Australian Aborigines feel about you stealing all their resources now...

Is that you Mr Putin?

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by zilo

Hmmm...where have I heard all this before...

Not Putin's original idea ..how about...

Operation Desert Storm
Operation Iraqi freedom

Oh and the best...
We have prevailed ...
Mission accomplished.

Just the little detail of Isis to sort out....

I literally took the **** out of the US in my post, how the **** you missed it is beyond me it is in quotes

By the way both of those were military successes in any case, it's what happened after that is the failure. Russia has none.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by zilo

Give us a list of countries you reckon are squeaky clean ?

Why? This topic is about Russia and Ukraine.

You can not prove any of that.

Don't have to, go read the Panama papers if you want. The various courts will deal with the oligarchs when they try to get their yachts back.

So...now...we need Russia to feed the world?
And if they don't they are being unreasonable?

Read what I wrote. Ukraine as a sovereign country wants to sell wheat to African nations. Russia is preventing that by blockading or capturing Ukrainian ports How is it right that people in poor nations should starve so that Russia can get control of another country? Maybe the Russians feel justified in murdering, torturing and raping Ukrainians; maybe the Ukrainians did it first. But those starving kids in Africa didn't do anything but they have to die? Without Ukraine there is not enough wheat to meet the world's needs.

In your opinion...you forgot to say that.
In any event if you want to contrast historical transgressions ask how the Australian Aborigines feel about you stealing all their resources now...

This is a game called "whataboutism", I don't want to play it. This topic is about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to start a topic about the millions of other injustices in the world, go at it.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

This is a game called "whataboutism", I don't want to play it. This topic is about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to start a topic about the millions of other injustices in the world, go at it.

A lot of whataboutism and false equivalence in this war, or colloquially comparing apples and oranges

[zilo]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I literally took the **** out of the US in my post, how the **** you missed it is beyond me it is in quotes

yeah? I did post a smilie...

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

IBy the way both of those were military successes in any case, it's what happened after that is the failure. Russia has none.

I see no successes in any middle east war and no conflicts concluded.
Nothing has been achieved.

[MITCHAY]

That we can agree on and hopefully never go back again but both those particular wars were a military success for coalition forces. The military objective was achieved. It's the after that we lost.

We can go back and forth on it all day long but Russia has not only achieved none of that but has literally strengthened the resolve against them

[T3rminator]

Have the Germans caved and started to buy Russian gas in Rubles? Are they buying extra to stock up? Seems a bit contradictory to the purpose of sanctions.

EXCLUSIVE Germany begins filling western Europe's biggest gas storage site

https://www.reuters.com/business/ene...ed-2022-05-05/

Interesting to see what the Rubles is doing against the USD.

https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=RUB&to=USD

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Have the Germans caved and started to buy Russian gas in Rubles? Are they buying extra to stock up? Seems a bit contradictory to the purpose of sanctions.

The Russian govt is doing everything it can to prop up the value of its currency; how well that works and for how long is above my pay grade. More details here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MnznV2k2mA Explanation on how the payment for gas in roubles is not actually happening is at 13:00.

Lots of contradictions in this war. Europe buys around $US450mil of Russian gas every day so they are funding the Russian attack. Nothing they can do about that immediately without causing major disruption to their economy.

The other contradiction is that all this gas and some oil is piped through Ukraine and Russia has to pay them to allow that. It also means that if Russia nukes Ukraine they risk destroying the pipelines and pumping stations etc. I presume that if the pipelines were damaged by even non-nuclear devices then the Russians (and the Europeans) would expect the Ukrainians to do the repairs promptly so that this business transaction wouldn't be interrupted.

In the long term I think the Russians have screwed themselves. The Europeans will do everything possible to reduce their reliance on Russian oil and gas but that will take time. Russia will look for other markets but that too will take time. The Nordstream 2 pipeline took five years to build, a pipeline to China will be much longer.

Russia is also a major arms exporter. But now all the former Soviet bloc countries like Poland, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic are shipping all their Russian equipment to Ukraine. They will most likely replace it with Nato gear. So Russia has successfully killed off two of their major export industries at once. The long term impact on their economy has to be significant. The outcome of the war will make no difference to this. In fact if they win the sanctions are likely to be tougher so it would be in their own best interest to lose as quickly as possible.

All just my opinion of course; and worth every cent you paid for it.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Lots of contradictions in this war. Europe buys around $US450mil of Russian gas every day so they are funding the Russian attack.

That's a broad generalization. theres more to an economy than a military budget.

Originally Posted by PhilT2

It also means that if Russia nukes Ukraine they risk destroying the pipelines and pumping stations etc.

.

If..if..but not gunna happen

Originally Posted by PhilT2

In the long term I think the Russians have screwed themselves.

I doubt it...looks like Ukraine is fairing worse.

Originally Posted by PhilT2

it would be in their own best interest to lose as quickly as possible.

Well that is not gunna happen either.

Originally Posted by PhilT2

The Nordstream 2 pipeline took five years to build, a pipeline to China will be much longer.

.

The Chinese have proven they can do infrastructure in record time..just no work place safety etc...etc

Originally Posted by PhilT2

All just my opinion of course; and worth every cent you paid for it.

I understand, quite a few in this thread are at different stages of the Dunning Kruger phenomenon....

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It will be interesting to see what happens next week. The "special operation" might turn into a "declared" war in which case he loses face by any objective measure. It has been a war since the start.

May 9th only a couple of days away. Lots of murmurs that things are going to escalate. Looking at all the news coming out recently, particularly around US intelligence behind the sinking of Moskva and killing of top generals, and limitless weapons being sent there, seems like a self fulfilling prophecy.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

May 9th only a couple of days away. Lots of murmurs that things are going to escalate. Looking at all the news coming out recently, particularly around US intelligence behind the sinking of Moskva and killing of top generals, and limitless weapons being sent there, seems like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I doubt that the US is being honest with us as to how much help they are giving the Ukrainians. But, under the circumstances, why would they be. I would put money on the fact that, despite all the talk about "no boots on the ground" there are a lot of US citizens there. Whether they are CIA or "contractors" who knows.

But if the claims of how many generals have been killed is even half true then Russian army communications have been compromised. Still if a Russian general is stupid enough to use his mobile phone on the Ukrainian network then his future is limited.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

I doubt that the US is being honest with us as to how much help they are giving the Ukrainians.

Stories around about another Russian warship, the frigate Admiral Makarov, on fire in the Black Sea. Seems there was a US drone patrolling that area around that time....pure coincidence I'm sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sW-j3pJcfM

just speculation on my part but with all these warships out of the way then there's a chance a missile could get through and take out the Crimea bridge.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Stories around about another Russian warship, the frigate Admiral Makarov, on fire in the Black Sea. Seems there was a US drone patrolling that area around that time....pure coincidence I'm sure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sW-j3pJcfM

just speculation on my part but with all these warships out of the way then there's a chance a missile could get through and take out the Crimea bridge.

NATO funded, NATO armed, NATO trained, NATO intelligence..... starting to sound like Russia vs NATO with Ukranians as the meat in the sandwich.

These drones have the ability to drop bombs and missiles, wonder if at some stage the Russians will claim war has been declared by NATO. A mini nuke is a real possibility if Putin feels trapped.

[FairmontGS]

Day 52 to 73




Vladimir Putin's Victory Day speech could offer clues on the future of Russia's disastrous war in Ukraine

More than two months after Russia's troops marched across the border, rumours are swirling that the President's address may signal a shift in his ambitions for Ukraine.

Despite the military campaign suffering from logistical issues, low morale and outdated assumptions, the Russian leader appears unlikely to concede defeat.

Instead, with the eyes of the international community on him, Mr Putin may decide to slap a "mission accomplished" banner on his disastrous invasion.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-...plan/101014774

[burnz]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

This is a game called "whataboutism", I don't want to play it. This topic is about Russia and Ukraine. If you want to start a topic about the millions of other injustices in the world, go at it.

now we have something in common!!
their are always two sides of a coin, USA/RUSSIA same same, two headed coin.

[T3rminator]

All civilians in the Mariupol steel mill now evacuated. Confirmed by both sides.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

All civilians in the Mariupol steel mill now evacuated. Confirmed by both sides.

What they weren't machine gunned down and buried in mass graves?

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by zilo

What they weren't machine gunned down and buried in mass graves?

Some interesting accounts from some of the evacuees. Claims of having to exchange rations and medicine for the right to evacuate. At least they are out now.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

Some interesting accounts from some of the evacuees. Claims of having to exchange rations and medicine for the right to evacuate. At least they are out now.

Exchange with Russians or with those staying behind?

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Exchange with Russians or with those staying behind?

Azov. They are now asking to be evacuated themselves. Apparently quite a few are in a bad way and running out of meds. Apparently looking for Turkey to broker a deal.

[Mulva]

Originally Posted by zilo

What they weren't machine gunned down and buried in mass graves?

Thankfully not - I can understand why you expected that, but it is not the entire Russian invasion force that are committing war crimes like you describe, but the minority that are is too many.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Mulva

Thankfully not - I can understand why you expected that, but it is not the entire Russian invasion force that are committing war crimes like you describe, but the minority that are is too many.

I think Zilo comment was just a p*sstake.

[EgoFG]

Ok, here is a fun angle.


How do Russians pronounce Kyiv ? How do Ukrainians pronounce Kyiv ?
How do the TV reporters pronounce Kyiv ?