Aaand Drive is at it again.

[legt]

Whatever happens, I'd be holding onto my GT Falcons as they will surely become more collectible & expensive.

[Kamshaaft]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Everything I wanted to say I said in a comment on that article- 2nd from the top. What has to stop is this BS about "More efficient FWD"- FWD is NOT inherently more fuel efficient or lighter, as I said in the article comment I made.

I'm not saying you need to finda new school of mechanial engineering, but it is inherently more fuel efficient mate. And it's mainly because there's less driveline wastage. And that's about its only upshot. At all really, and it's one that can be overcome entirely in many different ways - though at the cost of other features.

One may have confused between what is 'inherent' and what is 'anecdotal observations', I don't blame any one though, it was Friday night.

You're totally right in gest though, we need to stop being so stupid as to think FWD is the only way to gain fuel efficiency etc. And I believe in that as much as you do.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by legt

IMHO, the Australian market is a drop in the ocean as far as Ford is concerned.
Personally, I think it is simply bad economics & simply unsustainable to have unique niche models in Australia, Europe, England, etc.,. Don't misinterpret me here, I own a number of GT Falcons & have always driven Falcons, I'm about as Falcon as a 1-eyed Collingwood supporter loitering around Victoria Park, as much as I hate to use that analogy. But when GMH is doing everything right to expand its market by exporting the Monaro (Pontiac GTO in the U.S.) & the Commodore (Pontiac G8 in the U.S.) & now the Statesman will see its way into Highway Patrol & Police fleets in the U.S., how can a unique model like the Falcon help Ford survive in a business that spans the globe?

Does BMW or Mercedes or Toyota or Audi or VW or Hyundai or any successful & notable vehicle manufacture have niche models for tiny markets? And have any of these vehicle manufacturers received any bad press because the government had to bail them out? Okay, Ford USA only just escaped a government executive interest like GM faces; but they have realised that there are business financial exposures. So why continue to invest in localised niche models that just translates into a high cost of sale. As an Australian I'm tired of paying exorbitant prices for motor cars.

Its ridiculous to think that an imported vehicle could actually sell for far less than a domestic make but doesn't, because of the protection taxes associated around the domestic industry. I completely agree that our jobs need to be protected, but what if all the design & build around unique, niche models was removed & we had a standard range of models like the Germans have for example & that translated into a lower cost to the consumer whilst maintaining jobs? That to me sounds like a win/win. And if you want something unique then you simply pay for it. But $35K for a base Falcon is insanity. Have a look what you get for $35K in the northern hemisphere. We are spending money on developing straight 6's when the rest of Ford hasn't seen a straight 6 in years. More V6's Mustangs get sold in the U.S. than there are Australians in Australia. Just doesn't make economic sense.

As much as I would hate to see the Falcon disappear, I can't help but think that the economics around keeping it, in light of the Global economic exposure is a reality beyond 2015. Australians are just taken to town when it comes to buying a commodity like a car. Something needs to be done before the cost of a Falcon moves into the luxury car bracket & jobs are lost.

The financially sustainable reality is that GMH has already shown that it can develop a product for BIG markets, Ford Australia is just a victim of bad timing.

Some great points there.

This is why I think the best option is to develop one RWD/6cyl platform, i.e. Falcon/Mustang and use the same engine in this platform (likely to be the V6). This will reduce the cost of R&D for the Falcon and ensure it maintains a long future. They should also look at developing LHD Falcon as a part of that shared platform which will open up options in international markets for Falcon, perhaps as a replacement for the Crown Vic.

The writing is on the wall, for as long as we insist on the I6/RWD Falcon, the future of Falcon is on shaky ground under the global "One Ford" policy.

[legt]

Right. Succinctly & well said.

Just an idea but manufacturer's can design & develop 'modular' engines so why can't we expand that concept to include car chassis? Then Ford Australia can develop a body that is appealing to Australians (& maybe the world), the English can do their thing, the Europeans there's & so on. The challenge here is finding a global business sustainable future without wholesale loss of jobs & maintaining local investment & domestic economies. It's not an easy solution and the final decision will have some impact on flow on industries associated with vehicle manufacturer's but the cost of doing nothing will be far greater.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by legt

Right. Succinctly & well said.

Just an idea but manufacturer's can design & develop 'modular' engines so why can't we expand that concept to include car chassis? Then Ford Australia can develop a body that is appealing to Australians (& maybe the world), the English can do their thing, the Europeans there's & so on. The challenge here is finding a global business sustainable future without wholesale loss of jobs & maintaining local investment & domestic economies. It's not an easy solution and the final decision will have some impact on flow on industries associated with vehicle manufacturer's but the cost of doing nothing will be far greater.

They have for years, cars are based on platforms which are used across a variety of models. For example the VW Golf platform is the basis for Golf, Jetta and Tiguan.

What you suggest is a regional R&D of platforms but the push is for global platforms, unless I have misread you.

[legt]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

They have for years, cars are based on platforms which are used across a variety of models. For example the VW Golf platform is the basis for Golf, Jetta and Tiguan.

What you suggest is a regional R&D of platforms but the push is for global platforms, unless I have misread you.

My statement suggested vehicle manufactures but I was referring to the likes of Ford specifically. They did it with the Falcon/Mustang transition in the mid/late 60's.

You've read me precisely.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by legt

IMHO, the Australian market is a drop in the ocean as far as Ford is concerned.
Personally, I think it is simply bad economics & simply unsustainable to have unique niche models in Australia, Europe, England, etc

Ah, but there in lies the beauty of the Falcon and Ford Austraila, because
FOA is less than 2% of Ford's global sales, we fly under the radar provided
costs are controlled and Ford maintains a presence in the market.

Dearborn knows that if Ford stops production in Australia their presence in
Asia Pacific region is greatly diminished. So long as anything FoA develops
is not too expensive and uses things like corporate power trains, a lot of
the back end costs are greatly reduced.

Ford NA "gets" the Falcon but in order for it to survive, they need to:
1. Continue their recovery in North America
2. Get their volume product FWD portfolio right and full of vehicles on common platforms
3. Look at what niches for RWD vehicles still need filling, including areas like Australia...

Edit,
The next four years of E8 Falcon in Australia will be very interesting,
if fuel prices begin to increase, we may well be glad to have access
to a fuel efficient EB I4.

I wonder what Holden will do..........

[Chilliman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ah, but there in lies the beauty of the Falcon and Ford Austraila, because
FOA is less than 2% of Ford's global sales, we fly under the radar provided
costs are controlled and Ford maintains a presence in the market.

Dearborn knows that if Ford stops production in Australia their presence in
Asia Pacific region is greatly diminished. So long as anything FoA develops
is not too expensive and uses things like corporate power trains, a lot of
the back end costs are greatly reduced.

Ford NA "gets" the Falcon but in order for it to survive, they need to:
1. Continue their recovery in North America
2. Get their volume product FWD portfolio right and full of vehicles on common platforms
3. Look at what niches for RWD vehicles still need filling, including areas like Australia...

Edit,
The next four years of E8 Falcon in Australia will be very interesting,
if fuel prices begin to increase, we may well be glad to have access
to a fuel efficient EB I4.

I wonder what Holden will do..........

I think that sums up the real situation we are facing.

[legt]

I hope that this remains to be the case moving forward, like I said I'm Falcon through & through and want nothing more than Ford AU to kick some caboose. Personally, I don't think FWD or RWD is the issue

The issue I see is Ford NA is hurting & bleeding badly so I guess they are looking at every remote outpost with same detail & scrutiny as they are the bigger parts of their business.

All Ford executives, I'm guessing, will be commissioned & targeted with specific goals that will align with Ford NA initiatives & here is where the devil lies, regardless of market share.

Let's hope that Ford NA have stemmed the flow well before 2015 which I can't see happening as the U.S. recovery is slow & consumer's mindsets have been changed for the short/medium term, at least.

I might be wrong but by enlarge we in these forums are probably not as representative of Mum & Dad consumers as we are mostly enthusiasts & the car business is primarily designed around the requirements of the masses.

[legt]

Originally Posted by legt

All Ford executives, I'm guessing, will be commissioned & targeted with specific goals that will align with Ford NA initiatives & here is where the devil lies, regardless of market share.

The question is how will the Ford AU executives deliver on their targeted goals whilst maintaining a grip on a diminishing market & even increasing sales in the region?

This may well mean, like you say an E4 Falcon..!!!
I wonder if that will mean 4 wheel studs as standard & 5 as an option..!!!

So Ma & Pa Ford can no longer maintain an I6 Falcon (let alone a V8) & if they can for how much longer? So does Ford dilute a brand like the Falcon by introducing a 4Cyl version & can Ma & Pa Ford wait for it as fuel costs in Australia are equal to running a rocketship?

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by legt

The question is how will the Ford AU executives deliver on their targeted goals whilst maintaining a grip on a diminishing market & even increasing sales in the region?

This may well mean, like you say an E4 Falcon..!!!
I wonder if that will mean 4 wheel studs as standard & 5 as an option..!!!

So Ma & Pa Ford can no longer maintain an I6 Falcon (let alone a V8) & if they can for how much longer? So does Ford dilute a brand like the Falcon by introducing a 4Cyl version & can Ma & Pa Ford wait for it as fuel costs in Australia are equal to running a rocketship?

In regards to the 4 wheel stud, I cannot see 4 stud setup on Falcon as the early Falcons six's were never running the 4 stud setup, as the EB4 I assume will run at least 170kw, more than the early crossflow's.

[legt]

I'm just posing questions & scenarios here, as this topic will not doubt gain momentum as 2015 approaches. Opinions will be wide & varied, lines drawn in the sand, employees questioning their existence, businesses wondering about their contracts, etc. Its funny how having a car industry can affect a population so much & a simple direction is never really that simple to implement. Just think if the peeps in NZ really care what happens with the Falcon. Ford means a whole more to Australians than anyone else in our region.

Just another scenario that I wonder about: What defines Australians as unique? What makes us Australian? We have a vast & beautiful country & we love driving in our cars throughout. Load up the family, hook on the trailer, the caravan & lets hit the highways & explore this sunburnt land. That isn't gonna happen in anything but a Falcon or a Commodore. If either of these comes with a 4cyl then its plainly & simply un-Australian. Remember the VB/VC 4cyl Commodore...what an alLround joke that was...that's about as un-Australian as it gets.

I don't know, I just see the writing on the wall as ugly as it appears. There's nothing but questions & scenarios at the moment & the people are restless. But I guarantee we are gonna some major changes on the near horizon, this will be a hotly debated topic, most of the people that want the Aussie icon to stay probably won't be able to afford in keeping one & the Australian Supercar series will have a whole new look..!!!

[legt]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

In regards to the 4 wheel stud, I cannot see 4 stud setup on Falcon as the early Falcons six's were never running the 4 stud setup, as the EB4 I assume will run at least 170kw, more than the early crossflow's.

The 4 wheel stud thing was just a rhetorical remark. i thought I would post it since Ford will be going through some form of transformation & thought it would be funny to suggest the 4 stud thing as part of it.

And you're probably right, we may well see 4cyl's pushing close to 200kW & beyond.

[4.0i_SiX]

The newer generation seem to be moving away from large 6 cylinder cars like theyre moving away from music thats made using real instruments and no Auto tune. It seems every younger person you speak to ( P-plater age ) are into cars from Fast and the Furious and other hot hatches. I can think of a small handful of people who would even consider and falcon, commodore or Aurion. This is of course, until they have a kid.....Then they look at people movers

[glavas]

Originally Posted by legt

I'm just posing questions & scenarios here, as this topic will not doubt gain momentum as 2015 approaches. Opinions will be wide & varied, lines drawn in the sand, employees questioning their existence, businesses wondering about their contracts, etc. Its funny how having a car industry can affect a population so much & a simple direction is never really that simple to implement. Just think if the peeps in NZ really care what happens with the Falcon. Ford means a whole more to Australians than anyone else in our region.

Just another scenario that I wonder about: What defines Australians as unique? What makes us Australian? We have a vast & beautiful country & we love driving in our cars throughout. Load up the family, hook on the trailer, the caravan & lets hit the highways & explore this sunburnt land. That isn't gonna happen in anything but a Falcon or a Commodore. If either of these comes with a 4cyl then its plainly & simply un-Australian. Remember the VB/VC 4cyl Commodore...what an alLround joke that was...that's about as un-Australian as it gets.

I don't know, I just see the writing on the wall as ugly as it appears. There's nothing but questions & scenarios at the moment & the people are restless. But I guarantee we are gonna some major changes on the near horizon, this will be a hotly debated topic, most of the people that want the Aussie icon to stay probably won't be able to afford in keeping one & the Australian Supercar series will have a whole new look..!!!

mate i agree 100% nothing more australian then driving ya v8 ute down the highway!!!! its a great feeling. but these times were in now and the new generation of kids just don't see that.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by legt

I hope that this remains to be the case moving forward, like I said I'm Falcon through & through and want nothing more than Ford AU to kick some caboose. Personally, I don't think FWD or RWD is the issue

The issue I see is Ford NA is hurting & bleeding badly so I guess they are looking at every remote outpost with same detail & scrutiny as they are the bigger parts of their business.

All Ford executives, I'm guessing, will be commissioned & targeted with specific goals that will align with Ford NA initiatives & here is where the devil lies, regardless of market share.

Let's hope that Ford NA have stemmed the flow well before 2015 which I can't see happening as the U.S. recovery is slow & consumer's mindsets have been changed for the short/medium term, at least.

I might be wrong but by enlarge we in these forums are probably not as representative of Mum & Dad consumers as we are mostly enthusiasts & the car business is primarily designed around the requirements of the masses.

Some awesome insight there and a concept that is often forgotten here, we are not indicative of the average falcon buyer, we are mostly enthusiasts with a higher level of Ford loyalty than the average falcon buyer.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by legt

Just another scenario that I wonder about: What defines Australians as unique? What makes us Australian? We have a vast & beautiful country & we love driving in our cars throughout. Load up the family, hook on the trailer, the caravan & lets hit the highways & explore this sunburnt land. That isn't gonna happen in anything but a Falcon or a Commodore. If either of these comes with a 4cyl then its plainly & simply un-Australian. Remember the VB/VC 4cyl Commodore...what an alLround joke that was...that's about as un-Australian as it gets.

A very good point but I think the example of the falcon or dunnydore hooked up to the caravan or camper trailer is not really a crutch that the big aussie six can lean on anymore. I have done a lot of country driving, I mean from east to west and back again a couple of times plus more. My observation is the average car towing the caravan or camper trailer is no longer a big aussie sedan, it is now a Landcruiser, Pajero or Patrol.

[jpd80]

Ford North America has turned a corner and is no longer the basket case we saw in 2006,
they are now much leaner with roughly half the manufacturing capacity and employees.
For the next two years, the product pipeline is chock full and chiefly aimed at retail buyers
so I'm expecting a huge lift in performance regardless of what the US economy does.


Ford Australia is in a dilema, Falcon does OK but they suck terribly in nearly every other sector.
what they desperately need is to reconnect with buyers in those markets. We often hear
how wonderfully the imported Fords sell in native Europe but that's not happening here
so I think Ford either needs a new marketing strategy or a vehicle that grabs them more sales
and profit, something that's relatively easy to make but not necessarily available elsewhere.

I do feel an efficient midsized Falcon based product with Ecoboost I-4 is the key,
offering something no other manufacturer does, a locally built RWD with brilliant fuel economy.

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by legt

Just another scenario that I wonder about: What defines Australians as unique? What makes us Australian? We have a vast & beautiful country & we love driving in our cars throughout. Load up the family, hook on the trailer, the caravan & lets hit the highways & explore this sunburnt land. That isn't gonna happen in anything but a Falcon or a Commodore. If either of these comes with a 4cyl then its plainly & simply un-Australian. Remember the VB/VC 4cyl Commodore...what an alLround joke that was...that's about as un-Australian as it gets.

There aren't the amount of 'families' that existed in the 1970s and 80s that need a full size family car. Now, rather than load up the car, people buy airline tickets to cover the distances in our sunburnt land. Families buy SUVs these days. The Falcon will soon lose relevance here in Australia.

Off topic but your comments remind me of an Holden ad back in the late '80s where they just released the VN 304 EFI motor and showed it overtaking a poor EA going up a hill on a highway. Both cars were towing caravans from memory. Holden do at least show how their cars are relevant to Australians and they do a better job doing this than what Ford does.

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Ford Australia is in a dilema, Falcon does OK but they suck terribly in nearly every other sector.
what they desperately need is to reconnect with buyers in those markets.

We often hear how wonderfully the imported Fords sell in native Europe but that's not happening here so I think Ford either needs a new marketing strategy or a vehicle that grabs them more sales and profit, something that's relatively easy to make but not necessarily available elsewhere.

I do feel an efficient midsized Falcon based product with Ecoboost I-4 is the key, offering something no other manufacturer does, a locally built RWD with brilliant fuel economy.

Like a retro TE Cortina?

The flavour at the moment is the SUV craze. Why for the life of me didn't Ford bring the Kuga here at the same time VW bring the Tiguan. Dead set, if Ford brought this out a year ago with the turbo diesel motor, they would have beat the new Hyundai IX35 or whatever it is called to the Aussie market, raked in some Rav4 buyers and countless other Mazda and Korean cars. This is "OneFord" at its best.

[legt]

Originally Posted by banarcus

There aren't the amount of 'families' that existed in the 1970s and 80s that need a full size family car. Now, rather than load up the car, people buy airline tickets to cover the distances in our sunburnt land. Families buy SUVs these days. The Falcon will soon lose relevance here in Australia.

I think you're all absolutely right which is why I think the Aussie Falcon's days are literally numbered. The executives & bean counters already know this & are just preparing a plan before they spill their revolutionary speach to us all.out: Snap up those GT's fellas it may be a view to supplement those tanking superannuation funds..!!!

Off Topic; Can anyone tell me how the hell does one get any Rep power in these forums?used:

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by banarcus

Like a retro TE Cortina?

The flavour at the moment is the SUV craze. Why for the life of me didn't Ford bring the Kuga here at the same time VW bring the Tiguan. Dead set, if Ford brought this out a year ago with the turbo diesel motor, they would have beat the new Hyundai IX35 or whatever it is called to the Aussie market, raked in some Rav4 buyers and countless other Mazda and Korean cars. This is "OneFord" at its best.

There's a lot of things Ford should have done, one of them was not underestimating the importance of diesel vehicles (thank you Mr. Gorman).
The other is keeping up with a well designed small SUV, we could have got buy with the US Escape, it has better looks and power train than the thing from Taiwan....

Don't mean to be pessimistic but you could give FoA a whole open book to global products and they would still FJCK up a sure thing - can't fathom it but it's akin to a servant unable to tie up his own shoelaces, go figure...

Sorry about the rant but FoA marketing sux big time, they don't connect with buyers.

[Quicksand]

Originally Posted by 4.0i_SiX

The newer generation seem to be moving away from large 6 cylinder cars like theyre moving away from music thats made using real instruments and no Auto tune. It seems every younger person you speak to ( P-plater age ) are into cars from Fast and the Furious and other hot hatches. I can think of a small handful of people who would even consider and falcon, commodore or Aurion. This is of course, until they have a kid.....Then they look at people movers

I wonder if the rumoured Liquid LPG coming out towards the end of the year will change peoples mindsets. I for one am VERY keen on picking one up from Ford if this eventuates. After all, there is no reason why people cannot enjoy the massive torque and power an I6 can provide while reaping the power, efficiency and economy of modern LPG technology. I enjoy this everyday with my T.

For example:

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2576D6000A7D95

Snippet from the above article:

THE LPG industry expects a six-fold increase in LPG-fuelled vehicles on Australian roads within ten years, due to the fuel's cost and environmental benefits, improved fuelling and on-board storage technology and continuing support from both vehicle manufacturers and the federal government

Can Ford tap into this? I say definitely.

[wheelzie1989]

mmmm maybe they need to start looking at holden and its lack of development in its cars....at least ford have gone and jammed a turbo under their bonnet

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Kamshaaft

I'm not saying you need to finda new school of mechanial engineering, but it is inherently more fuel efficient mate. And it's mainly because there's less driveline wastage. And that's about its only upshot. At all really, and it's one that can be overcome entirely in many different ways - though at the cost of other features.

One may have confused between what is 'inherent' and what is 'anecdotal observations', I don't blame any one though, it was Friday night.

You're totally right in gest though, we need to stop being so stupid as to think FWD is the only way to gain fuel efficiency etc. And I believe in that as much as you do.

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it's "inherently more fuel efficient"... I believe there's much less in it than the bean counters would want people to know. The biggest saving comes from reduced manufacturing costs as the whole front end just bolts in....

[Ghiadude]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it's "inherently more fuel efficient"... I believe there's much less in it than the bean counters would want people to know. The biggest saving comes from reduced manufacturing costs as the whole front end just bolts in....

I agree

[legt]

Just some trivia to add here.

GMH sold 44,000 Horrordores last year in Australia & a further 41,000 as Pontiac G8's in the US for a total of 85,000 cars. By comparison Ford sold 30,000 Falcons total (none in the US), which is just shy of a third to the competition - the worst sales year in 49 years of FoA. I'm now more concerned with the survival of a rear drive Aussie made Ford mid-wheel vehicle. I think the One Ford policy of having a common base for short-wheel, mid-wheel & long-wheel based chassis touted for some time in 2014 at this point, may take the roar out of the lion. Hope its not too late - many jobs counting on it. I'd be curious to see how FoA sales of the Falcon have started in 2010. Personally Id like to see a Mustang produced in Australia or even a 4-door variant perhaps called a Falcon..!!!

Another 20c.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Perhaps you'd like to explain why it's "inherently more fuel efficient"... I believe there's much less in it than the bean counters would want people to know. The biggest saving comes from reduced manufacturing costs as the whole front end just bolts in....

Interesting point. The market was initially sold FWD on the back of increased interior space in small cars, not fuel economy How much efficiency could be lost through drivetrain really? Now we have GM cancel RWD projects and blame it on CAFE. Is fuel economy just a scapegoat in all this?
Savings from FWD are for the manufacturer, not the consumer. The fact that most people dont know the difference is helping manufactures force FWD down our throats.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by legt

Just some trivia to add here.

GMH sold 44,000 Horrordores last year in Australia & a further 41,000 as Pontiac G8's in the US for a total of 85,000 cars. By comparison Ford sold 30,000 Falcons total (none in the US), which is just shy of a third to the competition - the worst sales year in 49 years of FoA. I'm now more concerned with the survival of a rear drive Aussie made Ford mid-wheel vehicle. I think the One Ford policy of having a common base for short-wheel, mid-wheel & long-wheel based chassis touted for some time in 2014 at this point, may take the roar out of the lion. Hope its not too late - many jobs counting on it. I'd be curious to see how FoA sales of the Falcon have started in 2010. Personally Id like to see a Mustang produced in Australia or even a 4-door variant perhaps called a Falcon..!!!

Another 20c.

How many Territories were made?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by legt

Just some trivia to add here.

GMH sold 44,000 Horrordores last year in Australia & a further 41,000 as Pontiac G8's in the US for a total of 85,000 cars. By comparison Ford sold 30,000 Falcons total (none in the US), which is just shy of a third to the competition - the worst sales year in 49 years of FoA. I'm now more concerned with the survival of a rear drive Aussie made Ford mid-wheel vehicle. I think the One Ford policy of having a common base for short-wheel, mid-wheel & long-wheel based chassis touted for some time in 2014 at this point, may take the roar out of the lion. Hope its not too late - many jobs counting on it. I'd be curious to see how FoA sales of the Falcon have started in 2010. Personally Id like to see a Mustang produced in Australia or even a 4-door variant perhaps called a Falcon..!!!

Another 20c.

Where did you get 41000 G8's from? I'm not saying your wrong, just never read that myself anywhere.

Also Holden dont sell that many more locally made cars locally (when you add Territ & utes) compared to Ford.. Also don't forget Holden are paying half its work force 75% pay every 2nd week to stay at home & do nothing.. That is not profitable at all.