Wikileaks discussion

[Jim Goose]

Scarier still is the fact they cant even be bothered to hide the fact they want him gone..
The message is this "Dare to rock the boat and we will hunt you down like an animal in front of the whole world and we dont care who we upset"
The very public comments and threats shows exactly how far down the dismal trail of world domination by the few "elite" we are.

[SILENT_RAPTOR]

Getting rid of him wont stop wikileaks, the sheep are waking up.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Scarier still is the fact they cant even be bothered to hide the fact they want him gone..
The message is this "Dare to rock the boat and we will hunt you down like an animal in front of the whole world and we dont care who we upset"
The very public comments and threats shows exactly how far down the dismal trail of world domination by the few "elite" we are.

We never actually came that far from feudal times in that sense.

[WMD351]

Well look at that, as I sit here Wikileaks is down again.
Still easy enough to find through all the mirrors though.

I first started looking at Wikileaks when they began publishing the governments internet blacklist drafts some time back and have to go on record as saying I'm mostly a fan of the site and of Julian Assange.

The internet blacklist makes a good case point here I think. As I first started to peruse it I expected to find all sorts of interesting topics (euthanasia, Wikileaks itself, etc) but what I found was a list comprised overwhelmingly of child porn sites. Now that list would be a highly beneficial tool for use by peds looking to find there way around the web so I have to ask the question, we don't want to make life easier for creeps like that do we, isn't censorship a good thing?
(see what I did there, that's a little move I like to call "the Conroy")

Do America really care anyway? They're going to continue to do whatever they want regardless because to quote Denis Leary "there ain't a goddamned thing anybody can do about it. You know why? Because we got the bombs, that's why"

And to those of you who would like to see Assange killed or left alone, given that he's already got his succession plan in order and Wikileaks can't really be stopped, wouldn't he now be a more powerful force if he were to become a martyr?

[Ohio XB]

I made a post in here yesterday but I don't see it anywhere today. I hate having to type things all over again.


Some have said "Well if the Government wasn't doing anything wrong then they wouldn't have to worry about anything."


Do you think any government DOESN'T have any top secret things?


I have heard that wikilinks has named confidential informants who are used to gather information. These people are likely going to be killed now.

Methods for infiltrating Al Qaida are being exposed, so those who have infiltrated the terrorist organizations are likely going to be killed.

Intelligence on how the military does reconnaissance on terrorist organizations is being exposed. How the military tracks terrorist activity having to do with their training camps and other locations, as well as financial activity and arms aquirement, is also being exposed, giving the terrorists information on how they are vulnerable.


There's just 3 things that need to be kept secret, and are not necessarily anything being done "wrong."


When you play cards do you show everyone your hand? No? Why, do you have something to hide? Are you cheating?



This is why the actions of that idiot bother me. There was an expression coined during WW II; Loose lips sink ships.


Having said all that, are there things that are being made public that are not ethical? Yes. Are they things that no country anywhere would ever do in the same situation as the US? Everyone would like to believe their country would not do anything unethical, but when it comes to matters of national security there will be some things that we will not be proud of. Also, there will be things done for which people should be held accountable because they are just plain wrong.

However, that distinction, between strategical info that needs to remain secret and info about ill doings, needs to be made and the enemy not given information which will benefit them in any way.

Steve

[chevypower]

I think people take the whole "freedom of speech" thing way to far, expect to say and do whatever they want (especially on the Internet, where it may seem like not a real tangible crime), and expect that there won't be any consequences. People need a wake up call, and to be shown what they deserve - whether or not they believe they are in the right, is irrelevant.

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

I made a post in here yesterday but I don't see it anywhere today. I hate having to type things all over again.


Some have said "Well if the Government wasn't doing anything wrong then they wouldn't have to worry about anything."


Do you think any government DOESN'T have any top secret things?


I have heard that wikilinks has named confidential informants who are used to gather information. These people are likely going to be killed now.

Methods for infiltrating Al Qaida are being exposed, so those who have infiltrated the terrorist organizations are likely going to be killed.

Intelligence on how the military does reconnaissance on terrorist organizations is being exposed. How the military tracks terrorist activity having to do with their training camps and other locations, as well as financial activity and arms aquirement, is also being exposed, giving the terrorists information on how they are vulnerable.


There's just 3 things that need to be kept secret, and are not necessarily anything being done "wrong."


When you play cards do you show everyone your hand? No? Why, do you have something to hide? Are you cheating?



This is why the actions of that idiot bother me. There was an expression coined during WW II; Loose lips sink ships.


Having said all that, are there things that are being made public that are not ethical? Yes. Are they things that no country anywhere would ever do in the same situation as the US? Everyone would like to believe their country would not do anything unethical, but when it comes to matters of national security there will be some things that we will not be proud of. Also, there will be things done for which people should be held accountable because they are just plain wrong.

However, that distinction, between strategical info that needs to remain secret and info about ill doings, needs to be made and the enemy not given information which will benefit them in any way.

Steve

Those examples you've given are legitimate ones - I agree some things need to be kept confidential.

But do you have some links, or any proof at all, that Wikileaks have released such information?

The description of Wikileaks from google: :Publishes and comments on leaked documents alleging government and corporate misconduct"

The key word there being misconduct.

Your examples contradict Wikileaks own mission statement. If they are indeed true (not saying if they are or aren't - I dont know) then I would agree Wikileaks have gone too far.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

I made a post in here yesterday but I don't see it anywhere today. I hate having to type things all over again.


Some have said "Well if the Government wasn't doing anything wrong then they wouldn't have to worry about anything."


Do you think any government DOESN'T have any top secret things?


I have heard that wikilinks has named confidential informants who are used to gather information. These people are likely going to be killed now.

Methods for infiltrating Al Qaida are being exposed, so those who have infiltrated the terrorist organizations are likely going to be killed.

Intelligence on how the military does reconnaissance on terrorist organizations is being exposed. How the military tracks terrorist activity having to do with their training camps and other locations, as well as financial activity and arms aquirement, is also being exposed, giving the terrorists information on how they are vulnerable.


There's just 3 things that need to be kept secret, and are not necessarily anything being done "wrong."


When you play cards do you show everyone your hand? No? Why, do you have something to hide? Are you cheating?



This is why the actions of that idiot bother me. There was an expression coined during WW II; Loose lips sink ships.


Having said all that, are there things that are being made public that are not ethical? Yes. Are they things that no country anywhere would ever do in the same situation as the US? Everyone would like to believe their country would not do anything unethical, but when it comes to matters of national security there will be some things that we will not be proud of. Also, there will be things done for which people should be held accountable because they are just plain wrong.

However, that distinction, between strategical info that needs to remain secret and info about ill doings, needs to be made and the enemy not given information which will benefit them in any way.

Steve

Yes because everything that has come out on Wikileaks has given the "enemy" lotsa of good info hasnt it...

Like info on how the US spies on members of the UN
How people are kidnapped off the streets,
Rendition,
Use of torture,
Friendly fire incidents,
Killing of civilians by military and private contractors,
How companies, the banks all collude with each other,
etc etc etc...

Hell why would I care what the governemnt is up to????
We should all just lay down and take it.....

[Fev]

Everyone seems to think the information Wikileaks is disseminating is Classified or Top Secret. The cables that are being released are noted as "In Confidence". Which is a step below top secret. This basically means its information that the Gov't doesn't want people to know, but at the same time isn't highly critical. The information was gleaned from the US Defence by a lowly soldier, most of the personnel had access to this information and it was only a matter of time before some of it was stolen/released.

The only difference is this soldier took ALL of it in one fell swoop and it's been released in one big flood. If this information was 15 years old it wouldn't matter but since it's fairly new still it has implications to politicians who are still in those positions.

As you have seen, or more like HAVEN'T seen - the information released hasn't caused any big problems. It hasn't been WOW MASSIVE SCOOP - GOVERNMENTS KNOW THEY ARE LYING TO THE PUBLIC ABOUT SPEED CAMERAs or anything of the sort. It's just small and pretty much unimportant information and cables from meetings which just seems to embarrass the pollies - such as Rudds comments to Clinton about China. This is why there is such a big beat up about it, this is why those pollies are making such a big fuss.

People need to stop being brainwashed into thinking that this information being released is going to kill billions of people (just like speeding).

[DJR David]

Reminds me of the old saying : Loose lips sink ships.

Some things are not for the public domain

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DJR David

Reminds me of the old saying : Loose lips sink ships.

Some things are not for the public domain

Absolutely.....

Just ask anyone caught up in any of the underbelly sagas or Fitzgerald enquiry or Petrov or WA Inc or......

hey here are a few more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._controversies

Now should we start on organised crime links to public servants and political figures?

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Fev

People need to stop being brainwashed into thinking that this information being released is going to kill billions of people (just like speeding).

Well said. There have been plenty of occasions where Governments have hid things from the population that only detracted their quality of life.

Think Windscale Nuclear disaster. Think Chernobyl, etc. Then there are other events that in the media have been played-down when really there were things that people should have known.

[Jim Goose]

True democracy is when your not afraid to question what your government does....

Its when you become afraid of asking, that democracy is lost.

Wikileaks apparently has other emails on BP, Several big US Banks, one labelled "Insurance" and other such goodies which he has said will be released should he go to jail for something he didnt do (ie his alleged rape charge).

[Franco Cozzo]

That insurance file is interesting, its 1.4GB and its encrypted, plus being called "insurance"...

I wonder whats in it, I'm downloading it anyways just in case something happens to the site/him.

[pulpist]

The government censorship is understandable and nothing new.
Anything that threatens the official propaganda must be fought at all costs. Sure, the current blatant government sponsored attacks and demonising of Wikileaks and its founder might be surprising and even shocking to the masses that don't normally hear or give a **** about these things, but it will be forgotten as soon as this guy and his website are erased.
No doubt steps will be taken to prevent not just further leaks but to discourage in no uncertain terms anyone from supporting the release of anything that contradicts the official doctrine.

I would argue there's no moral argument in the talk about how innocent people might die as a result of these leaks but a bucket load of hypocrisy. The warmongering cheerleaders hellbent in supporting and forever regurgitating the ******** rhetoric used to sell these geopolitical wars and excusing the killing of innocent plebs from both sides under the premise that somehow we're saving the world are the same ones that are now vomiting fake outrage about how all of a sudden they give a **** about the loss of innocent human life.

Spare me!

[Jim Goose]

Another new arrest warrant... and apparently his bank accounts have been frozen.

What a world we live in....

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...07/3086417.htm

[KYSBF]

looks like a few on this thread have gone quiet........

[Fev]

Hopefully they don't finally get to him and he disappears mysteriously. Its a complete witch hunt.. People are raped, atrocities committed, thousands in poverty every day across the globe - but when one bloke releases some info which embarrasses a few pollies it's apparently terrorism and a worldwide warrant goes out for his arrest?... come on...

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Fev

Hopefully they don't finally get to him and he disappears mysteriously. Its a complete witch hunt.. People are raped, atrocities committed, thousands in poverty every day across the globe - but when one bloke releases some info which embarrasses a few pollies it's apparently terrorism and a worldwide warrant goes out for his arrest?... come on...

In fairness, the warrant is for an alleged rape of a minor, not releasing information. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying it isnt being used as such, but it still is a child rape allegation and its the rape charge that must be proved.

He is in one of the better places to sort this. Id rather be subject to the British justice system than many others. At least the judges should decide based on law, not hype. If not, he can appeal. Interpol arent an actual police force who can come in and swoop him up, its simply an agreement between police forces that are members of interpol. It facilitates better coordination of police efforts when jurisdictions are crossed.

[Ohio XB]

The site is gone and, using "cached" on google I was able to see the homepage. I clicked on a link to download a file and it took me somewhere else. When I attemped to download the file on Iraq the file what would have come to my computer was an ".exe" file, so no way was I going to download that. I won't be able to peruse the files.

Like info on how the US spies on members of the UN

Most, if not all, of the countries have people who follow members of the UN. The US is not the only country who does not trust every member of the UN. By the way, many Americans would like the UN to be somewhere else. How about Australia?

How people are kidnapped off the streets,

Al Qaeda members have been kidnapped off the streets, as have Taliban members and others plotting to plant IED's and commit other violent acts against the US and it's military.

Rendition,

I am not sure what this word means in this context.

Use of torture,

This has bothered many Americans. There are a number of soldiers/some officers who have been tried and found guilty and have been encarcerated. Other soldiers still are awaiting trial for "fun killing."

Friendly fire incidents,

This happens, unfortunately, in most every military operation (longtime ongoing) and has happened from other allies as well. Here is an article about a British helicopter that opened fire on British troops...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_111972.html
Here's an article about NATO killing Afghan soldiers....
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ato-2010-07-09
Of course there are tons of newspaper articles and television news stories of American friendly fire incidents so this was no new "break through" info. There are also the occasions of the US military firing on their own, like in the Pat Tillman case, a man who turned down a 3 year pro football contract to join the military. This was a high profile story.

Killing of civilians by military and private contractors,

As mentioned, people are incarcerated for this, others are awaiting trial, and the private contractor issue is being handled by "Blackwater" being removed from the country (2007 I believe) and no longer used, and there is an ongoing FBI investigation into Blackwater. This is also public news here.

How companies, the banks all collude with each other,

This is a global phenomena that has been going on for possibly a century, or centuries. I am glad you are now aware of it.

etc etc etc...

So let's look in Australia's backyard.

The government is looking to censor and monitor your internet use...

http://boingboing.net/2010/07/22/aus...governmen.html
The federal government has censored approximately 90 per cent of a secret document outlining its controversial plans to snoop on Australians' web surfing, obtained under freedom of information (FoI) laws, out of fear the document could cause "premature unnecessary debate".

Meanwhile, the Oz government was petrified when the latest leaks were announced. Why? Do they have anything to hide?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1225961141585
These cables could include embarrassing disclosures about Canberra's secret diplomacy on controversial issues, such as the war in Iraq.

What is there to hide here if nothing wrong has been done by the Aussie government?
....The Australian has been told the leaked cables include material sent up until February this year and predate the Iraq war.

This raises the possibility the Rudd government could also be exposed.


And this parts sounds just like what the US government said about the leaks...
But speculation has long been swirling that the Howard government had privately signed on to the controversial war well in advance of the formal request - a charge flatly denied by former foreign minister Alexander Downer. He condemned WikiLeaks yesterday for leaking the documents, while at the same time playing down their significance: "Do I think these particular documents would be incriminating or damning? I think the answer to that is no."


Are Australia's banks, say the Reserve Bank of Australia, part of that global collusion? Yup, with arms dealers as well...
http://wfol.tv/news/5445--broker-in-...rror-list.html
The Kuala Lumpur businessman who implicated Malaysian government officials in a RM11 million kickback probe involving scandal-racked Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) subsidiary Securency was an alleged blacklisted arms broker.

Let it be said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Yes, the US government is guilty of bad things, and yes, it bothers many Americans, myself included. There are a lot of these things being properly handled though. I don't know if that it reported around the world. There are some things I am sure we still do not know about.

....but there were/are things going on within the Australian government/banks/etc. that the Australian citizens do not know about either, or are just learning about. My point.....all countries have their skeletons, not just the US. Bad is bad, but there is not only one country in the world with bad things going on behind the scenes.


Steve

[rodderz]

This story makes things interesting. Whether it has any truth is another. Apparently a split condom in Sweden constitutes rape
http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...-has-cia-ties/

[pottery beige]

the franga files..... it just gets better.....

[rodderz]

sounds like the cables weren't the only thing that leaked

Could it be called "Dikileaks"?

[Road Games]

Who is wikileaks ? And who cares really

[onfire]

To me, Julian Assange just comes off like a smug, pretentious, little man. Probably bullied in High School, and ended up getting the last laugh playing Devil's advocate watching his high school's conformist society crumble around him in the final few months.

Unfortunately for him, this is the real world built on rules and structure. Despite Government corruption, cover ups, and sensitive information these are the realities of a modern society, built again on rules and structure, and practices that are worth maintaining and defending.

This isn't a guy who want's to expose the truth to the masses, this is a character who wishes to generate as much chaos as possible, not on the virtue of free-speech but on the grounds of anarchy. The vehicle or the content, whats just as relevant is the malice and intent behind it.

[jamesson1980]

when one is a big dog on a high pedestal, keeping the public and indeed, other big dogs as disengaged and naive as possible is the key to success? And transparency in any form is strictly a no-go-zone?? Those are the core ethics of power maybe. Personally I couldn't care less, this is no longer exciting to me, but it's a clear worry to certain groups when Wikileaks sites are being attacked and shut down etc.. which I guess is in turn a bit of a concern to the community.. anyway, back to Youtube to see cows falling over

[Polyal]

At the start I thought wikileaks was out of line, but after thinking about it I agree with the others. This, while on the face of it can look "evil", is actually a very good thing.

Governments et al kept things quiet for self preservation...thats it. They only care about their reputation while in power. Australias "after 50 years" rule is an example of this. If its ok to release in 50 years its ok to be known at the time.

So many decisions are based on the term that the current government is in power for..this is wrong.

I think the US governmental system is more open than ours, which is scary, but they "classify" everything..thats not good. Naming people in documents and then them being leaked is naturally not a good thing, but then perhaps the activity that is occurring in the first place should not be happening...

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by rodderz

This story makes things interesting. Whether it has any truth is another. Apparently a split condom in Sweden constitutes rape
http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...-has-cia-ties/

yeah well girls are allowed to flash thier boobs on bondi and shake them even , yet walking on the beach with a camera , points to suspicious illegal activity . same thing in my book s .

[Barnaby]

Not sure if its still current...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIgcKC-b_FA

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

The site is gone and, using "cached" on google I was able to see the homepage. I clicked on a link to download a file and it took me somewhere else. When I attemped to download the file on Iraq the file what would have come to my computer was an ".exe" file, so no way was I going to download that. I won't be able to peruse the files.



Most, if not all, of the countries have people who follow members of the UN. The US is not the only country who does not trust every member of the UN. By the way, many Americans would like the UN to be somewhere else. How about Australia?


Al Qaeda members have been kidnapped off the streets, as have Taliban members and others plotting to plant IED's and commit other violent acts against the US and it's military.


I am not sure what this word means in this context.


This has bothered many Americans. There are a number of soldiers/some officers who have been tried and found guilty and have been encarcerated. Other soldiers still are awaiting trial for "fun killing."


This happens, unfortunately, in most every military operation (longtime ongoing) and has happened from other allies as well. Here is an article about a British helicopter that opened fire on British troops...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/0..._n_111972.html
Here's an article about NATO killing Afghan soldiers....
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.p...ato-2010-07-09
Of course there are tons of newspaper articles and television news stories of American friendly fire incidents so this was no new "break through" info. There are also the occasions of the US military firing on their own, like in the Pat Tillman case, a man who turned down a 3 year pro football contract to join the military. This was a high profile story.


As mentioned, people are incarcerated for this, others are awaiting trial, and the private contractor issue is being handled by "Blackwater" being removed from the country (2007 I believe) and no longer used, and there is an ongoing FBI investigation into Blackwater. This is also public news here.


This is a global phenomena that has been going on for possibly a century, or centuries. I am glad you are now aware of it.


So let's look in Australia's backyard.

The government is looking to censor and monitor your internet use...

http://boingboing.net/2010/07/22/aus...governmen.html
The federal government has censored approximately 90 per cent of a secret document outlining its controversial plans to snoop on Australians' web surfing, obtained under freedom of information (FoI) laws, out of fear the document could cause "premature unnecessary debate".

Meanwhile, the Oz government was petrified when the latest leaks were announced. Why? Do they have anything to hide?
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1225961141585
These cables could include embarrassing disclosures about Canberra's secret diplomacy on controversial issues, such as the war in Iraq.

What is there to hide here if nothing wrong has been done by the Aussie government?
....The Australian has been told the leaked cables include material sent up until February this year and predate the Iraq war.

This raises the possibility the Rudd government could also be exposed.


And this parts sounds just like what the US government said about the leaks...
But speculation has long been swirling that the Howard government had privately signed on to the controversial war well in advance of the formal request - a charge flatly denied by former foreign minister Alexander Downer. He condemned WikiLeaks yesterday for leaking the documents, while at the same time playing down their significance: "Do I think these particular documents would be incriminating or damning? I think the answer to that is no."


Are Australia's banks, say the Reserve Bank of Australia, part of that global collusion? Yup, with arms dealers as well...
http://wfol.tv/news/5445--broker-in-...rror-list.html
The Kuala Lumpur businessman who implicated Malaysian government officials in a RM11 million kickback probe involving scandal-racked Reserve Bank of Australia (RBA) subsidiary Securency was an alleged blacklisted arms broker.

Let it be said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.


Yes, the US government is guilty of bad things, and yes, it bothers many Americans, myself included. There are a lot of these things being properly handled though. I don't know if that it reported around the world. There are some things I am sure we still do not know about.

....but there were/are things going on within the Australian government/banks/etc. that the Australian citizens do not know about either, or are just learning about. My point.....all countries have their skeletons, not just the US. Bad is bad, but there is not only one country in the world with bad things going on behind the scenes.


Steve

All good, bring it on. The only people who are genuinely surprised, are the public. Anyone who thinks a government from any part of the world is genuinely surprised is an idiot.

There are genuine secrets, things that are kept secret genuinely in the national interest. But that term in its general usage may also be used to cover something like the PM stealing a car, and that shame is in the best interests of the nation to keep it hush hush. Some of these so called secrets are an abuse of the official secrets type acts. They are in the face of freedom of information acts.

So in saying that, all it does is make the members of a democratic society aware of what and who they vote for.


If this is dangerous, a worse tactic was employed in the US not too long ago, outing a spy and naming them seemed to go unchecked, what was the name, Valerie Plame????