Soft sentencing from our courts....not any more!

[Professor Farnsworth]

Well I should sticky this thread, and add meta tags for google, we have found the all knowing one. If anyone wants an answer to anything, just ask fmc351, he apparently knows it all.

You have your opinion, i have mine, others have theirs. You claim others to not interpret what you're saying, including myself, yet you completely mis interpret mine, with the mix of superiority and attitude mixed in. This is completely frivolous as you're too busy pontificating on the keyboard to realise what the original posts were.

/end input

[auxr]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Prevention is the appropriate word. Context is key. This is a past act, he is being prevented by his removal from society. If I hog tie you with a rope, you are not deterred from moving, you are prevented from moving. If instead of tying you, I hang a car over your head, set to fall if you move, you are deterred, you still have the option to move. He has no option to act in society. He can act on his tendencies in jail, where deterrents do exist, additional sentences, solitary, whatever. Context.


Again. You comprehend abysmally.

No I believe in a system that allows intervening forces to try and correct the actions of kids in danger of becoming delinquents.

one could argue,
- military school
- national service
- removal from the current home and adoption or foster care.
- more active schools with options that might keep the kid there and wanting to be there, thus not the problem for other kids.
That is if home life is the problem. They are just a few examples.

If its simply the kid, and not the fault of the home, then harsher penalties for the offences that start the path. Funny how you missed that.


You seem to spend too much time watching Orwellian nonsense.


NOTE: Im not saying the above is the answer. Its just one possibility to look at, it is merely an example.

fmc351 - whatever your on, I don't want any of it.

[ST]

Originally Posted by fmc351

Do you people even read? Yes its all caps, it seems it needs to be.



NO-ONE, I REPEAT, NO-ONE IS SAYING THE KID SHOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH LIGHTER.

THEY ARE SAYING THERE ARE OTHER ISSUES TO CONSIDER ADDITIONAL TO SENTENCING.

NOT IN PLACE OF, ADDITIONAL TOO.

IT DOES NOT MEAN LET HIM OUT, OR SENTENCE HIM TO A LIGHTER SENTENCE.

HANG HIM IF YOU LIKE. I HAVE NOT READ ONE PERSON ARGUE THAT HE WAS TREATED UNFAIRLY.


YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT IF THAT IS WHAT YOURE READING.

Settle down, you aren't the authority on anything here.

We all know what you are saying but preventing situations like this from occurring is nigh on impossible. It happens literally everywhere in the world often for no reason at all. Some people get sadistic pleasure, some people snap for no reason, some people feel the need to do it to prove themselves etc... This is often unpredictable behaviour where lifestyle and parenting have little to no effect on the outcome.

My question to you is; how do we prevent situations like this from happening again?

[ThaFlash]

not mention the offender wont be going to heaven!

[Franco Cozzo]

I hope he gets life WITHOUT parole, because this kid is going to come out one F'd up adult who knows nothing other than violence, spending that much time in a prison from such a young age, no doubt going to be locked up with other violent offenders.

Though, if he killed one of my parents, I'd trade his life sentence for for a get out of jail free card, so I can cave his head in with a brick.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by ST

Settle down, you aren't the authority on anything here.

We all know what you are saying but preventing situations like this from occurring is nigh on impossible. It happens literally everywhere in the world often for no reason at all. Some people get sadistic pleasure, some people snap for no reason, some people feel the need to do it to prove themselves etc... This is often unpredictable behaviour where lifestyle and parenting have little to no effect on the outcome.

My question to you is; how do we prevent situations like this from happening again?

The posts are in reference to 1 post by polyal, after that post I simply offered a different interpretation of what he typed in that 1 post after people ignorantly started jumping on him. I tried to clear up what appeared to me, and subsequently agreed with by said poster, was a misunderstanding. It might help if you found that post. Neither he, nor I suggested the sentence was too harsh, yet that one premise has been raising its head, directly in response to either he, or I continually. So, yeah, it needed to be said.

Since then, countless times, people have continued with their original misconception and suggested that means he, or I, feel more for the culprit than the victim. Which is completely incorrect. Damn straight Im an authority on what I mean when I say it. And I will respond when people try to ignorantly put words into my mouth.

To answer your question, which ones? The sociopaths that are born like that, or the ones where they become sociopaths as products of their environment? Both exist. And occasionally, one has both conditions. Nature, or nurture? As has been said, what were you doing at 14? For most, it wasnt killing random people because that is not normal behavior. I wouldnt even do it if I could get away with it either, its not in me to do so and I assume for most others the same is true.

The born sociopath, not much you can do unless you want to jail people who have that tendency before they do anything. They lack the capacity to comprehend the wrong. That does not mean they arent responsible. Its not because they are stupid, many are highly intelligent, they are missing a part of brain function that stops normal people killing someone when they are wronged, let alone for nothing. There are a lot more sociopaths than most think, most never act on it in any illegal manner. Its complicated, some are just office sociopaths or variations thereof.

But, the ones that are bred, get them out of that environment. Show them something different, thus the off the top my head list of some options. Whether they work or not is another question. Something that may work for some, may fail with another. Polyal was saying we need to try, and I agreed. What do we do? We start by letting the experts, the psychologists and other skilled people come up with something. It is their field of expertise.

Key to the problem is learn to differentiate the two sources of sociopath. But, if either one acts on it, lock them up for a long time, as has been done here.

If you get the bred kind, you might be able to show them a different outlook, they are less likely to ever act on it and may develop the part of the brain responsible for that type of decision making as a result of the appropriate environment. Note, we are talking before they have done such a heinous thing. Thus, some poor buggers life is saved, a future victim is no longer a victim. Not to mention, a kid is steered right. So you save lives, and help some kid with little hope or future.

With the born kind, there is little hope if they decide to act on it. Decide being a poor choice of word, some could argue they cant control it. That doesnt mean they are innocent, nor that we should treat them gently. But for some, a dedicated prison for that kind of mind might be a good start. Instead of locking them up with some kid who didnt pay a few fines, or stole a car or something. Remember, the kid with the unpaid fine or car theft could be the next environmentally caused sociopath.


People are focused on this one victim, and these two kids. And thats all well and good. But none of it stops the next kid, from doing what we see all too often, another victim. This last paragraph was polyals point, even if not so clearly worded, I got it. Instead of jumping on him, maybe a reread, and looking for what he may be trying to say would have been wiser. He offered a thought, that does not mean he, nor I, must have the answers to the thought.

[auxr]

Originally Posted by ST

My question to you is; how do we prevent situations like this from happening again?

you asked the question and were delivered a response.

IMO the murderer has been sentenced and received the appropriate penalty, case closed.

[ST]

Exactly, I asked a question and was given a response. What else did you expect? Unlike a lot here I do not make an argument with every post and I genuinely asked that question hoping for a legitimate response.

I can't say the response was in any way a solution to the question I asked but it was at least well written and thought out. There is no real answer to the question I asked, because as I said it is unpredictable and in many cases unexplainable.

[ST]

Also fmc351 you really need to get your ego in check. This is not in any way a cheap shot at you, you just come across as way too authoritarian even when you are wrong.

[BIGJB]

The problem with this is that the little mutt in question is going to cost tax payers thousands of dollars.
So the way I see it is life sentence....... just give him the death penalty.

[Tough Ford]

After reading some of your posts, I myself have changed my point of view several times. I guess its really all about choice and the path we take in life.

An old mate of mine was also homeless at a young age, he was in foster care when his mother died and ran away. He led a similar life to this kid but made a choice that he had enough of the life he was living, because he knew hed also end up in jail eventually. He was lucky enough to be given a chance at a job considering his background.

Today he runs a succesful business (electrician) is married has a couple of kids and a decent sized house, he made the choice.

[Jim Goose]

Now we see the total opposite from the courts in this case!!!!!!!

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au...3141_news.html

A PAINT-sniffer has walked free following a horrific three-week-long crime spree in Heatley.

The 27-year-old mother assaulted an elderly man with a baseball bat, spat in a police woman's hair, covered a street in graffiti and punched herself in the head repeatedly, all while high on paint fumes.

Ursula May Fulford pleaded guilty yesterday in the Townsville District Court in front of Judge John Baulch SC to two charges of serious assault one of a police officer and one relating to a person over 60.

Charges also included trespass, public nuisance, obstruct police and five of wilful damage in a public place by applying paint two of those were for making obscene representations.

Crown prosecutor Belinda Bray said between February 23 and March 12, 2009, the defendant committed 10 offences.

She was seen spray painting in fluoro orange paint "motherf***er" on a Heatley Secondary School classroom building and she wrote illegible words on a powerpole and a footpath.

Fulford explained that she had put graffiti around the neighbourhood because she was feeling aggressive after "chroming" which is the common term for sniffing paint.

Days later she was also seen spraying a power box on Bayswater Rd and Bamford Dr with the word "sl**" in pink fluoro paint.

When confronted she was "upset and irrational" and said she had been "kicked out of home".

A week later a 72-year-old man woke after hearing a woman scream "I'm gonna kill you and your ********** dog". Fulford was at the front gate with a yellow baseball bat, she was smashing the fence and hit the elderly man on the hand causing his fingers to bleed.

He was so scared he "was shaking" but was able to flee back inside his house and call 000.

Finally Fulford's offending came to an end after she was spotted "sniffing paint" in a two-litre Coke bottle which had a "yellow substance inside".

She was hysterical as she told police "I just want to go home, I don't know why I can't go home".

The court heard officers put her in a patrol car because she could not walk straight but she banged her head on the window and vomited so they removed her but she started punching herself in the head and screaming obscenities.

She called a policewoman a "********** b****" and spat in the officer's hair.

Defence barrister Wayne Pennell, representing the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Legal Service, said Fulford came from a "tragic background" and was addicted to alcohol, cannabis and paint-sniffing by the age of 17.

She also developed mental health problems but had made positive attempts to turn her life around by becoming involved in cultural dancing, NAIDOC week and an indigenous radio station.

The judge remarked that the defendant's behaviour of seriously assaulting an elderly citizen and a police officer was "totally unacceptable" but he acknowledged her attempts to self-rehabilitate.

Fulford was given two years' prison but was immediately released on parole due to 75 days served in pre-sentence custody.

So again we see that the court system fails dismally....

[Dave_Obsession]

No wonder this country is headed for the toilet...

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by ST

Also fmc351 you really need to get your ego in check. This is not in any way a cheap shot at you, you just come across as way too authoritarian even when you are wrong.

Tone, is only in the reader. You cant hear a voice in posts. Im not wrong, most posts were explaining the misconception of other readers. Im not wrong in that, its my opinion and I was spelling it out as people cant read apparently. The opinion itself could be wrong, my explanation of it isnt. But the opinion isnt what posters drew into question. They were myopically focused on the penalty, which was never in question in the first place.

Lets see.
Wasted teenagers kill an innocent man in an incredibly heinous manner.
Court locks them up for life, all good.

So far we on the same page, and in agreement.

However, a thought was proposed that went beyond the case at hand, to the community at large. There are still thousands of teenagers living with the same sort of attitude in Aus with the potential to repeat the act. Look up a few posts, theres another. Note, I said thousands, therefore Im not saying anything about ALL teenagers.

So what polyal and I were saying, is we need to address them before they kill someone. If such a thing was done, would it not be worth it too save 1 innocent mans life? Thing is though, if you reach and actually change 10%, you would do a lot more for the benefit of society. Not just murders, but many other crimes too.

What do they do to reach them? Im not a psychiatrist. What I do know, is sociopaths are studied. The studies have shown clearly that they can be created in at least two ways. Born as such. Or made by the environment they are exposed too. Not all living in bad environments go that way, but some do. It is this last group that can be helped. Which helps society.


Seems all anyone else wants to do is let things go as they are, and when some other poor bugger ends up dead, say its ok mate, we will lock the culprit up for life, so its no problem. We care about you and your family from whom youve been ripped so terribly. Bugger preventing it though, thats not our problem.

Think about it.

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by Polyal

As much as I am happy that a harsh sentence has been handed down....I also feel bad that a 17yo life is now over.

Granted if I knew the victim I would be happy with the sentence, but wow, remember when you were 17?

Ive never sniffed paint etc so I dont know how it sets some people off, and I am not making an excuse, its horrible what happened. But wow...if the kid had a history then thats different, and there is no doubt alot we dont know, but there is a part of me that feels uneasy with someone so young getting life.

I must be getting older, few years back I would not have said that.

How that situation happens with a 14 and 17yo I dont know...would be interesting to know the backgrounds of all.

No need to feel bad. These 2 didn't feel bad when then beat the man to death. I imagine he pleaded for his life. But they didn't feel bad enough to stop. They took what they had no right to take. The life of another person.

I don't feel bad for anyone who hide behind things like drugs, booze and an abused life as their excuse to lash out and take another persons life.

[buggerlugs]

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/m...-1225973604576
What would this lot get if they were caught ? 100 hours community work of which they'd only turn up once............

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/m...-1225973604576
What would this lot get if they were caught ? 100 hours community work of which they'd only turn up once............

No, that didnt happen. We locked the guy in the OP up for life and the problem is solved. We sent a message.

[Jim Goose]

Pretty sad figures, in QLD in the 2009 period, sexual crimes commited by kids rose 49%
Was on the local news.... what a sad society we live in.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Now we see the total opposite from the courts in this case!!!!!!!

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au...3141_news.html


So again we see that the court system fails dismally....

Nice try.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by ltd

Further, another sad indictment is the fact that kids are promiscuous earlier than ever before. I'm no prude, but seeing a 12 year old in shorty-shorts and make up is wrong. We're not letting kids be kids. Classic example of kids trying to take on too much too soon is the plethora of serial idiots desiring to and/or getting pregnant before they turn 16. They in turn find out it's much harder than it looks, and either neglect the child or subject it to abuse. This then leads to them growing up maladjusted to become the new welfare bogan class - and thus the cycle begins again but each time, the intelligence quotient decreases inversely proportional to the feral behaviour quotient.
The first step to ridding us of the feral bogan culture is to do what this judge did, and stop enabling the welfare classed idiots of this world by sending them away to life where they can't hurt anyone else, nor get anyone else pregnant.......... That or we could pay all bogans a 10 grand "Vasectomy Bonus".

No, YOU wouldnt want that...if we removed all the scum bags below you, your peddestal wouldnt appear so high!

I started reading your posts and thought, hmm looks like we agree on this, however, as always you whipped out your dirty black brush and tarred everyone less fortunate than yourself.

I have first hand knowledge of these people you speak of, infact my sister was one of them.
She had a kid at 16, another 5 over the next 7 yrs and all but the last 1 were removed by welfare.
She came from a stable home, good parents, but made a poor choice which snowballed.
2 of her children were put in Foster care where they were subject to things you wouldnt want to know about in your crystal castle.

1 of these has gone on to meet a great girl, has a 2yr old child and is holding down a steady job, he drives a nice EF falcon he paid cash for, plays lawn bowls and is as reliable as one could expect from a 25yr old in a hurry.
They have no father figure, i sort of fill that void the best i can, and have done for near on 10yrs, im only 34 and have children to contend with myself.
Mind you, i could have abandoned them as wasted causes, would that make you feel better?

What does this have to do with the thread, well it shows that poor upbringing doesn't mean you have to become a murderer, its a choice...

The boys made a choice, now they must live with it, a luxury they never afforded their victim.

[Smoke Pursuit]

I think the worse part and the biggest worry for our judges is the fact that we don't have a big enough jail system to cater for all these idiots.. If we keep filling up all the jails with people for extended sentences then we will eventually run out (if we aren't already on border line neways).

Capital punishment would be a good start at fixing the dramas we have in society. Would = more space in jails too!

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Nice try.

????? sorry please be a little more elabourate? what does nice try mean?

[3vXT]

I stopped reading halfway though page 2 because it's all been said here before.

Locking someone away forever will not prevent their crime from being repeated by someone else. Obviously these people need to be punished severely for their crimes, especially something as serious as this, but that will have almost zero impact on the next one. If we want to reduce the amount of violent crime (or any crime) we need to look at the reasons behind the act in the first place. I guarantee there are reasons even if they are not easily understood by those of us that are horrified by this type of act.

We need to take the focus off retribution and punishment and place it on prevention. There is nothing that can be done to help the person this young guy killed but if we stop the next young kid from turning into a piece of sh't then it may save someone else down the line.

Unfortunately, the (mostly) law abiding majority of us are too thick to understand this and are too busy sharpening our pitchforks or thinking up witty torture ideas to post on here.


EDIT: As for capital punishment, while it may be (arguably) appropriate as a punishment for certain crimes it will have a similar effect on the next potential criminal as life in prison, i.e just about none. I'm not saying it should it should never be used (I'll leave the morality issue for someone else), just that it won't help prevent future crimes.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I stopped reading halfway though page 2 because it's all been said here before.

Locking someone away forever will not prevent their crime from being repeated by someone else. Obviously these people need to be punished severely for their crimes, especially something as serious as this, but that will have almost zero impact on the next one. If we want to reduce the amount of violent crime (or any crime) we need to look at the reasons behind the act in the first place. I guarantee there are reasons even if they are not easily understood by those of us that are horrified by this type of act.

We need to take the focus off retribution and punishment and place it on prevention. There is nothing that can be done to help the person this young guy killed but if we stop the next young kid from turning into a piece of sh't then it may save someone else down the line.

Unfortunately, the (mostly) law abiding majority of us are too thick to understand this and are too busy sharpening our pitchforks or thinking up witty torture ideas to post on here.

Yes but retribution and punishment = prevention in alot of cases. If you scare people with consequences they might actually think twice, instead of them reading / hearing about people getting rediculous non parole periods of 6 months to 2 years.. 2 years in jail is nothing compare to losing ur life.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Yes but retribution and punishment = prevention in alot of cases. If you scare people with consequences they might actually think twice, instead of them reading / hearing about people getting rediculous non parole periods of 6 months to 2 years.. 2 years in jail is nothing compare to losing ur life.

It would scare you or me, but then we wouldn't bash someone to death in the first place. The type of people that commit these crimes don't consider the consequences, at least not to the same degree the majority of people do. A law could be passed that whenever you take a life, the bad guys mother will be executed in his place and it still wouldn't have a noticeable effect on some types of crime.

Punishment, although a legitimate part of our social system, just doesn't have the impact people think it does as a form of crime prevention.

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Yes but retribution and punishment = prevention in alot of cases. If you scare people with consequences they might actually think twice, instead of them reading / hearing about people getting rediculous non parole periods of 6 months to 2 years.. 2 years in jail is nothing compare to losing ur life.

Death penalties in the US do not deter crime. Their murder rate is well above ours despite having a death penalty. If harsh penalties kept a society safer our murder rate should be higher than theirs. Our murder rate per 100,000 people is under 2. In the US its over 5 per 100,000 people. This isnt directed at you, I can just see the argument coming so Ill chuck it in here now. Its not all about guns, gun ownership leading to higher crime is another myth. It is true, guns dont kill people, people kill people with whatever they have on hand. People get stabbed or beaten to death there too. There are other things at play, other issues to consider in criminal thought processes.

A question for you. If there was a simple fine of $100, no criminal record, nothing else happens, just an on the spot fine, would you break into your neighbours to steal their stuff? For most people, the lack of a penalty wouldnt encourage them to commit such an act. That is, you have values that prevent you from committing an act that is wrong. Jail is not your deterrent, your values are.

But criminals dont have those values. More importantly for deterrent values of penalties, in most cases they dont think they will get caught in the first place. That is the problem with deterrent values, you cant threaten someone with any success when they think they wont be caught. You have to catch them in order to penalise them. They have to believe they will be caught to take any notice of it. They have managed to get away with it before in most cases therefore any penalty is just a myth to them. And even with higher rates of solving crimes, they are deluded enough to think they can outsmart the police, so again, they arent deterred by what happens when they get caught, because in their eyes they wont ever be caught.

Worse still, the young teenagers without values dont even consider whether they will be caught. They dont simply think they are smart enough to get away with it, they dont even think about getting away with it, they just do it. They dont really think that far ahead. The part of a teenagers brain responsible for assessing risk taking isnt developed, and that is natural, we all went through it in varying degrees. Its one of the main reasons why young teenagers do dumb things, and im not talking about crimes here, just the usual mad stuff that average teenagers do. Those without values, criminals, dont simply do mad stuff, they combine it with criminal attitudes. Most kids have values, thats why the wrongs most of us did werent crimes, they just got our asses kicked by our parents.

There is still a need to to try to prevent others from committing crimes. Some form of early intervention is all we have as an option, and the values they are missing are the key. It wont stop it all, but has the potential to decrease the number of victims in the future. And surely that should be the goal.

Originally Posted by DASH GT

I think the worse part and the biggest worry for our judges is the fact that we don't have a big enough jail system to cater for all these idiots.. If we keep filling up all the jails with people for extended sentences then we will eventually run out (if we aren't already on border line neways).

Capital punishment would be a good start at fixing the dramas we have in society. Would = more space in jails too!

Someone posted a report that said basically that. The cost of keeping a prisoner for a year was 40 odd thousand dollars. The reoprt indicate that having long sentences was not desirable due to costs. That is an awful situation where the dollar costs are what determine a sentence, not the circumstances of the crime. Costs should not be a factor IMO.




But here another question, put your hand up if want a prison in your neighbourhood. Theyre like dams, everyone wants what they provide, no-one wants them next door. Cant say I blame them, but it is an issue.

[3vXT]

I'd love a dam next door

[LTDHO]

Recently a man ran down with full intention anotrher man, killed him.

The man got 7 years?

So intentionally kill someone with your car and only get 7 years.

There is soft sentencing at it's best.

[pottery beige]

give the little **** a bag of glue and he'll sniff himself to death.......

[nstg8a]

summary capital punishment is the only fair punishment for a case like this.

taxpayers shouldn't have to carry the cost of an individual which will most likely never be a contributing member of society.

imagine what that poor family has gone through, and will continue to go through, every time those pieces of **** come up for parole.
nothing can be done for the victim, but damn sure his family deserves some peace.