Could the Falcon be "shrunk"

[EB#]

I figure it's all been said, but Ford already has a kind of 'shrunk' Falcon..... The Mondeo.
There does not seem any point to developing another one, does there?

https://www.fordforums.com.au/photos/data/2937/Ford-Mondeo-2013.jpg[/IMG]

If you take a look at the 2013 Mondeo above, in terms of styling it could be seen as a logical
development of the FGII Falcon? It seems that way to me anyway.

Perhaps Ford will let the Falcon nameplate go and archive it ?
Will Ford attempt to re-badge an existing model with the Falcon name ? (Not a good idea I reckon)

Maybe in another 10 years or so it may be resurrected, so to speak, if
the trend for a large car market returns? Whilst SUV's are popular now, they
will run out of favour some day, to be replaced by the next thing again.

Remember also that the Commodore was a completely new model introduced
once upon a time to replace Holden's large car. Holden have sold a few
Commodores over the years, and up until the VE, it wasn't even an aussie
design.

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by blk6t

Maybe Holden and Ford should have gone off and developed a smaller RWD platform, similar to what Toyota and Subaru have done.

It could have been similar in size to the Torana concept, being smaller in size could have run off 4 cylinder engines and have smaller capacity V8's for the performance versions.

Its called the Mustang, not that the Mustang is exactly "Small".

[AC]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Its called the Mustang, not that the Mustang is exactly "Small".

blk6t was probably thinking of smaller as in IS200 sized RWD
Although the IS200 had a 2L six in them, but were only like 120kw or something lame.

If Ford did something like that, with an ecoboost 4, It would be pretty cool.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Thats hilarious. Oooh a flat floor, how much more awesome can you get?

Honestly, if you cant see the value in RWD beyond burnouts, you really have absolutely no clue, and a car enthusiast forum may not be the place for you if all you care about is frivolous gadgets and a flat floor in your whitegoods on wheels.

Having said that, I admit drive configuration isn't important in a mainstream passenger car. But given the choice, its RWD all the way for me - flat floor be damned!

RWD Territory has a flat rear floor.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by JimStone

Thats the old pov pack 2.3 Duratec Mondeo figures.... Mondeo I4 Ecoboost 8.0l/100km (187 g/km)

I hit the market needing to replace my AU1.5 Fairmont Ghia earlier this year. After driving near on everything on the market from small car class to SUVs I bought a new Mondeo Zetec Ecoboost Hatch.

I really, really wanted to drop my hard earned on a new RWD platform FG, but I could not live with dislocating my left knee everytime I got in the car. The steering wheel is simply too low and the driving position is claustraphobic for my 120kg 195cm tall frame. It felt like Ford drafted in some of the Commodore design crew when laying out the ergonomics for the FG, whereas the Mondeo is reminisent of the AUs relatively wide open and airy cabin design. An added bonus with the Mondeo is the loadspace is HUGE - fold down the rear seats and theres enough stretch out in the back.

As I said, I wanted to buy the FG, but at the end of the day, my money went to the car with the better allround ergonomic package - I can but wonder how Ford Australia managed to make an 'on paper' larger car fell so much smaller inside.

RWD or FWD at the end of the day is not really an issue, each need their own specific driving style to get the best from the package. Drive a FWD car to its inherent strengths and pay due respect to its weaknesses and you'll find the experience equally rewarding to driving a RWD, just subtly different.

Now excuse me while I go and put on my flameproof suit, I have the distinct feeling it will be required.

Any technical or design reasons for the steering wheel being so low on all modern falcons since EA? I can steer the car with my legs and I am thin . Don't know if earlier models were different. Maybe they've been lazy and the steering column is carryover from ea-fg?

[Motorbreath310]

I've dreamed of a downsized version of something like the F6. Holden is supposed to be using a smaller platform (alpha) after VF.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Any technical or design reasons for the steering wheel being so low on all modern falcons since EA? I can steer the car with my legs and I am thin . Don't know if earlier models were different. Maybe they've been lazy and the steering column is carryover from ea-fg?

EA to BFII had variable ratio rack and pinion steering, to keep the feel of the old steering box.
FG went to fixed ratio regular rack and pinion, the weighting on the later vehicles is much better
but sure variable ratio will make steering feel a little vague in the on centre area..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EB92

I figure it's all been said, but Ford already has a kind of 'shrunk' Falcon..... The Mondeo.
There does not seem any point to developing another one, does there?

image

If you take a look at the 2013 Mondeo above, in terms of styling it could be seen as a logical
development of the FGII Falcon? It seems that way to me anyway.

Perhaps Ford will let the Falcon nameplate go and archive it ?
Will Ford attempt to re-badge an existing model with the Falcon name ? (Not a good idea I reckon)

Maybe in another 10 years or so it may be resurrected, so to speak, if
the trend for a large car market returns? Whilst SUV's are popular now, they
will run out of favour some day, to be replaced by the next thing again.

Remember also that the Commodore was a completely new model introduced
once upon a time to replace Holden's large car. Holden have sold a few
Commodores over the years, and up until the VE, it wasn't even an aussie
design.

The big difference between Falcon and Mondeo is shoulder width, 75mm more in the front and 98mm more in the rear.
Fusion's body was changed to increase shoulder width front and rear but it's still about 50mm less than Falcon.

[EATHSV]

One Ford global model different face for each market but all based on the same car.

Mondeo for Europe
Fusion for America
Falcon for Australia / Asia

Cheap and easy. The Mondeo badge means nothing to me, as good as the car is. I'd be much more keen to see the Falcon badge live on in a face lifted mid size than disappear completely.

My 2c

[Nikked]

Photoshop related :-)

[Ducati888]

It would have been nice if they had tidied up the rear tail lights and rear end on the current Falcon, similar to the Mondeo, because I think they are the ugliest part of the car.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Any technical or design reasons for the steering wheel being so low on all modern falcons since EA? I can steer the car with my legs and I am thin . Don't know if earlier models were different. Maybe they've been lazy and the steering column is carryover from ea-fg?

The XF was the same. The wheel was very low if memory serves. I think it was also 'off centre' so when you did a full series of turns it would wobble like a buckled wheel...

I think the off centre problem was fixed in newer models, thought the height was as well. I do however recall the FG wheel in my loaner being lowish, but I thought it was adjusted like that... having said that I did reach under where the lever would be and it was either not there of broken.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Photoshop related :-)

image

Wow, excellent work Nikked,

Now that would make an excellent 2014 Falcon.....

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

EA to BFII had variable ratio rack and pinion steering, to keep the feel of the old steering box.
FG went to fixed ratio regular rack and pinion, the weighting on the later vehicles is much better
but sure variable ratio will make steering feel a little vague in the on centre area..

I think you have it the wrong way around. The FG was the first model to get a variable ratio steering rack.

And it was deleted from FGII, most likely for cost cutting reasons.

[JimStone]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I think you have it the wrong way around. The FG was the first model to get a variable ratio steering rack.

And it was deleted from FGII, most likely for cost cutting reasons.

AU Fairmont Ghia & Fairlane had variable rate steering....

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

a car enthusiast forum may not be the place for you if all you care about is frivolous gadgets and a flat floor in your whitegoods on wheels.

Having said that, I admit drive configuration isn't important in a mainstream passenger car. But given the choice, its RWD all the way for me - flat floor be damned!

Guess what buddy, me and my flat floor, white goods gadget crew are the people who are buying the new cars.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I think you have it the wrong way around. The FG was the first model to get a variable ratio steering rack.

And it was deleted from FGII, most likely for cost cutting reasons.

No, Ford refused to go to rack and pinion unless it had the same feel as a steering Box, EA has Variable ratio rack and pinion.

Link
Back home, Arthur was able to further refine his ideas. In 1970 GMH pioneered Bishop's power steering in the HQ Holden Kingswood using a patented 'hourglass' shaped worm gear to provide variable steering response. Ford Australia followed suit a year later on their Falcon range of vehicles.

Both companies changed to rack-and-pinion steering in the early 1980s and called on Bishop to design a variable-ratio rack-and-pinion arrangement to match the hourglass worm design. After gearing experts and manufacturers claimed it would be impossible, Bishop's development team figured out how the variable-ratio system would work, and how to mass-produce it.

Use of variable-ratio steering in Australian cars gave Bishop the proving ground he needed to eventually succeed overseas. Arthur Bishop was recognised internationally as the originator of the variable rack-and-pinion steering concept.

[Bossxr8]

They talked up the Bishop variable ratio rack and pinion steering in the FG, first time it had been used in an Australian built car.






17 February 2008
By BYRON MATHIOUDAKIS
NEW, Territory-style front suspension, variable-ratio steering and overhauled chassis control systems lead a myriad of engineering changes introduced for the 2008 Falcon sedan and utility.




Variable-ratio steering
FOR the FG, and compared to the BFII, Ford’s engineers desired more front axle compliance understeer, in order to achieve a balance of steering precision, handling stability and high-speed controllability.

To that end, the rack-and-pinion steering gear now boasts variable-ratio functionality, for optimum low-speed steering sensitivity and a more relaxed tiller at higher speeds.

While the old car’s 11.0-metre turning circle is retained, the 2.6 turns lock-to-lock is a 0.2-turn reduction, claimed to be achieved without a nervous feel during straightline driving.

Another steering-relating change is the local-first adoption of a Y-shaped steering rack – an invention by Australian company Bishop Steering Technology. Porsche and BMW are among Bishop’s other customers.

Significantly improving stiffness and smoothness in motion while eliminating what Ford calls “the knobbly, discontinuous feel that is normally prevalent in vehicles with a variable-ratio steering gear” as a result of rolling torque around the steering gear axis whenever the steering wheel is turned.





http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2573EF0081C132

[jpd80]

Well now I'm confused because the term Variable ratio rack and Pinion has been used for years with Fords,
Could it be those earlier systems were more variable assistance, offering speed sensitive steering?


Arthur Bishop first patented his variable ratio rack and pinion system in the early 1970s....

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Guess what buddy, me and my flat floor, white goods gadget crew are the people who are buying the new cars.

Yeah I know - thats why 99% of the cars on the market are sleep-inducingly boring, FWD econo-boxes. Cars like the Falcon with it's inline 6 and V8 engines, and inefficient RWD layout are dinosaurs, relics of the past - thats precisely why I, and (admittedly, a decreasing number of) other car enthusiasts, love them. But you wouldn't understand.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

Yeah I know - thats why 99% of the cars on the market are sleep-inducingly boring, FWD econo-boxes. Cars like the Falcon with it's inline 6 and V8 engines, and inefficient RWD layout are dinosaurs, relics of the past - thats precisely why I, and (admittedly, a decreasing number of) other car enthusiasts, love them. But you wouldn't understand.

Sorry, I didn't realise you have to like V8s and RWD to be a "car enthusiast"? There are hero FWD cars too which have a big following, Honda/Renault even Ford spring to mind?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Sorry, I didn't realise you have to like V8s and RWD to be a "car enthusiast"? There are hero FWD cars too which have a big following, Honda/Renault even Ford spring to mind?

If you don't like this, you are not a car enthusaist.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well now I'm confused because the term Variable ratio rack and Pinion has been used for years with Fords,
Could it be those earlier systems were more variable assistance, offering speed sensitive steering?


Arthur Bishop first patented his variable ratio rack and pinion system in the early 1970s....

I know for sure that the rack and pinion setup Ford chose for the EA was a Bishop system, but AFAIK it never had a variable ratio.

Ford used speed sensitive steering in some models, my NL has it. But that just varies the level of power steering assistance at different speeds.

The FG was definately the first and only Falcon to use a variable ratio rack, and now that the FGII doesn't have it it was the only one that did.

[vanman_75]

after driving the bmw diesel in ireland last week i reckon it would be great , half way between the m3 and falcon would be awesome .because lets face it falcons size although relatively unchanged , is way too big for cities .unwanted really even though its the best its ever been .

with the influx of some briliant engines in the last few years a downsized falcon with rear drive dynamics should sell very well , and i know cruise is front wheel drive but holden sorta got the size and looks of a shrunk ve , probably its main reason why its selling so well .
and i will choke on these words but falcon has had its day for large car , large = suv , daily equals small /midsize .

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by vanman_75

after driving the bmw diesel in ireland last week i reckon it would be great , half way between the m3 and falcon would be awesome .because lets face it falcons size although relatively unchanged , is way too big for cities .unwanted really even though its the best its ever been .

.

Its not the size that is the direct problem, a rough comparisim.


Falcon.

Length 4955mm
Width 1869mm
Height 1453mm
Wheelbase 2838mm

Mazda 6

Length 4765 mm
Width 1795 mm
Height 1490 mm
Wheelbase 2725 mm

Hyundai i45

Length 4820mm
Width 1835 mm
Height 1470 mm
Wheelbase 2795mm

Ve commodore
Length 4894mm
Width 1899 mm
height 1476mm
Wheelbase 2915mm



As you can see, the falcon is very comparable with the others, take note at the wheelbase between the i45 and falcon and commodore.

Falcon is 45m longer in the wheel base, but is 135mm longer all up compared to the i45. And the FG has a 77mm shorter in the wheelbase, yet the FG is 61mm longer then the VE...

This not only tells us that the falcon can be benificial of a smarter use of space, but that people are led to beleave that the Falcon/commodore are "large un-economical cars".


Its not the Falcon/commodore being large...its the perception of what they stand for.

[vanman_75]

i sorta agree , but when cars are getting 5s and 6s for fuel economy ,weight and size is an issue .the mazda and hyundai sell on price and tech, fuel economy, ,either make it a wanted car or its gone ...i cant raise much more of a case other than sales ....we dont have any . and you only compared with other rather large non selling cars , i stick by my view , those cars are 200 mm shorter quite a difference when touch parking ,
I just got back from my first trip over seas , only people with large cars are business men , with drivers and no need to park .smart cars are like iphones , they are everywhere by the thousands ...very practical park em sideways .
hey i love the falcon , still own two ...but 9s and 10s is bad economy by todays standards .it needs an overhaul -sad but true

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Nikked

If you don't like this, you are not a car enthusaist.

image

I don't mind them, but I'm probably too fat to fit in the thing .







These are pretty impressive cars and they all drive the front wheels.

Just remember, FWD also has its benefits and place, there is positives and negatives for everything in life.

[JG34JA]

Well and truly Big Damo.
For my 2c I prefer the RWD layout in a fullsize car, as much as I love FWD original minis and their whole way of driving.

Actually, we had a Renault 12, which was a North-South facing 4cyl FWD. Go figure, only the French! (Beautifully comfortable and tough that one)

Why not
Mondeo FWD Euro/Aus
Fusion FWD US
Mustang Bred RWD 2/4 Door Falcon, 1500kg US/Aus enthusiast?

[KIWI-1]

Originally Posted by Nikked

If you don't like this, you are not a car enthusaist.

Should be Red!

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Sorry, I didn't realise you have to like V8s and RWD to be a "car enthusiast"? There are hero FWD cars too which have a big following, Honda/Renault even Ford spring to mind?

No not at all, V8's and RWD are but just one of many genres of cars that have enthusiast followings. I'm a big fan of a some FWD car's myself. All those examples you posted photos of - awesome. I look for engineering depth and uniqueness in a car first. The Falcon has both, the Mondeo might have the former but absolutely none of the latter.

I was just reacting to this quote of yours;

Originally Posted by Big Damo

OH NO, WRONG WHEEL DRIVE!

Seriously unless you drive like a moron and do burnouts, no one gives a rats *** if the car drives with its front wheels or rear.

Seriously, after making a comment like that your trying to make me out to be the ignorant one?

The point I was trying to make about car enthusiasts, is that we'll happily overlook practical features - like all the gadgets and flat floors (whoo hoo!!) if the car is fun to drive, or has any other esoteric value.