The scale of the universe

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Kable72

1000 times the diameter of our own Star. Unbelievable. Just blows me away everytime I think about it.

I think it's actually closer to 2000.

You can fit 1,000,000 Earths into our Sun.

You can fit 1,000,000,000 of our Suns into VS Canis Majoris.

It would extend out to the orbit of Saturn.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by Sprint

It would take you 13.5 billion years at the speed of light(the fastest speed achievable) to reach the end and has more stars than a beach has grains of sand.

we are definately not alone.

I'm not sure that the 13.5 billion years you state is accurate, it implies there is an end to the universe, whereas the big bang occurred everywhere, not just in a localised area.

I think the most current theory is that the Big Bang was the collision of two universes or the separation of one into two. I find that feasible, at first we discovered there was more planets in the solar system, then the discovery of more solar systems, then the galaxy we live in, then there was more than one galaxy.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

I think the most current theory is that the Big Bang was the collision of two universes or the separation of one into two.

That's a new one on me - I'm not disputing it but do you have a link to that hypothesis?

[Sprint]

Many like the think the universe is round and doesnt have edges, however the tunnel or bell theory has been long though of:




notice the glow from after the bang(dont ask me how they can see it)

I also find it very interesting that they have chosen this shape,isnt a explosion round?isnt it equal forces on all sides? it ponders more questions that it answers lol

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by Rodp

That's a new one on me - I'm not disputing it but do you have a link to that hypothesis?

From memory it was a YouTube video, Michio Kaku was the physicist in the video. That is just one a many theories, another one is that this is the only universe and it is in a state of infinite expansion and contraction, sort of like a yoyo. I believe that theory is referred to as the big bounce theory.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

From memory it was a YouTube video, Michio Kaku was the physicist in the video.

Will search. Highly respect his opinion.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Rodp

There's a decent chance that there have been countless civilisations that have already come and gone. We've had a couple of impact caused extinction events in our planets history that life recovered from but there are numerous ways for life on this planet to end - without us being the cause - that we have absolutely no control over or power to stop.

There's a star in the constellation of Orion called Betelgeuse that is likely approaching supernova and it's ~600 light years away. Would be catastrophic to anything in the vicinity and when it does go supernova, it'll be visible in the day time sky and likely brighter than the moon in the night sky. That immense release of energy is just unfathomable to me.

i've often thought of this myself Rodp. countless civilisations may have wlaked the earth in the past , science says the earth could be 4 000 000 000 years old , i once watched a documentary on tv " what if humans dissapeared . it explained that after 10 000 years there would be no evidence that we were ever here , except for a granite carving of some presidents in a mountain , aside from that no evidence of any man made object .
On another note , i often wonder how the smallest virus in a human body compares to the size of our visible universe, that virus cell could be the size of a cluster of galaxies in the universe .

[Madaya]

Gotta hand it to those Apollo Astronauts. The Saturn V Booster, plus the Apollo engines (minus the Lunar Module payload), had the capability of launching them in to the wide black yonder, much like the Voyager and Pioneer probes. They could have been our first Interstellar voyagers.
Apollo only had a maximum of about a months consumables on board, including oxygen.
Though Apollo is the fastest human flown machine, with speed in the region of 40,000 kph, travel time to the nearest star would have been in the region of 100,000 years.

[mik]

pretty cool this astronomy stuff, reminds me of the star trek series, the enterprise wizzing past the stars at a good clip , you have to wonder if we are ever going to get off our little rock in any meaningful way to another liveable planet like ours before **** happens.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by Sprint

god's explaination of the universe

"poof it was created"

Has anybody thought "god" was working for a higher being?, it would take you 13.5 billion years at the speed of light(the fastest speed achievable) to reach the end and has more stars than a beach has grains of sand.

Surely one god cannot do that alone and we are definately not alone.

If infinite possibilities exist, why can't there be a God? What scares people so much to throw the whole God theory out the window so quick?

And just to the mods know I am not talking about religion here.

[Autolite]

A very fascinating subject, with many learned contributors.

[Iggypoppin']

If you all just stick to the topic at hand and stop mentioning religion or god then the thread won't get locked. It really is that simple!
I love a good chat about PHYSICS and SCIENCE. So lets keep it on topic and not mention anything about religion or god again. Thanks guys

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i've often thought of this myself Rodp. countless civilisations may have wlaked the earth in the past , science says the earth could be 4 000 000 000 years old , i once watched a documentary on tv " what if humans dissapeared . it explained that after 10 000 years there would be no evidence that we were ever here , except for a granite carving of some presidents in a mountain , aside from that no evidence of any man made object .
On another note , i often wonder how the smallest virus in a human body compares to the size of our visible universe, that virus cell could be the size of a cluster of galaxies in the universe .

I think I've seen bits of that doco. We certainly wouldn't be missed!

[Madaya]

"On another note , i often wonder how the smallest virus in a human body compares to the size of our visible universe, that virus cell could be the size of a cluster of galaxies in the universe ."

Not to sure how to go about this gtfpv, it's early in the morning and my arithmetic may a bit rusty.

I done a few calcs on excel based on this
Average virus is about 200 nano meters accross, or...
0.0000002 meters.
Therefore, if I am 1.8 meters tall, you could could stack from head to toe...
9,000,000 viruses.
On another scale, the Moon is on average 384399000 meters from the centre of the earth. Therefore if I am stacked head to toe...
a column of 213,555,000 me's is required to reach the Moon.
As you can see, outerspace is vastly bigger than innerspace, at this scale (that of a virus). It is only when you get down to the subatomic scale that the human body starts to resemble a Universe.
Check my arithmetic, like I say, it's early.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Madaya

"On another note , i often wonder how the smallest virus in a human body compares to the size of our visible universe, that virus cell could be the size of a cluster of galaxies in the universe ."

Not to sure how to go about this gtfpv, it's early in the morning and my arithmetic may a bit rusty.

I done a few calcs on excel based on this
Average virus is about 200 nano meters accross, or...
0.0000002 meters.
Therefore, if I am 1.8 meters tall, you could could stack from head to toe...
9,000,000 viruses.
On another scale, the Moon is on average 384399000 meters from the centre of the earth. Therefore if I am stacked head to toe...
a column of 213,555,000 me's is required to reach the Moon.
As you can see, outerspace is vastly bigger than innerspace, at this scale (that of a virus). It is only when you get down to the subatomic scale that the human body starts to resemble a Universe.
Check my arithmetic, like I say, it's early.

WOW . thanks for that madaya . very interesting , i appreciate your efforts .
i should of realised this with the saying , there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth . . but i'm not quite sure if anyones actually proved this one .

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i should of realised this with the saying , there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth . . but i'm not quite sure if anyones actually proved this one .

I've heard this saying a many number of times, I just figured that the size of the Universe was so large, that it was in fact plausible. So I did a bit of 'Googling' and found that Carl Sagan said something similar, but it was a reference only to the beaches and not the entire Earth, so that may eliminate many deserts. But there is no definitive evidence as yet because it is incredible difficult to measure. But if Carl Sagan said it, I'm inclined to believe it.

I've read ratios of 100:1 stars to grains of sand

[Rodp]

http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wil...tars-in-the-sk

Apparently stars win by far - which is a surprise to me, I would have thought it would be the other way around.

[Madaya]

10 drops of water contain as many molecules of H2O as there are stars in the observable Universe - now we're talkin Good link Rodp.

[Madaya]

Here is a bit of news, Comet Siding Spring (i.e Comet C/2013 A1 (Siding Spring) discovered from Siding Spring Observatory, Australia, will pass about 30-40 thousand kilometers from Mars in 2014. The distance is still uncertain. The boffins are still narrowing the distance of the pass, but gees, it's pretty close. If this was the Earth, I think we would be worried.
Comets are a bit different to Asteroids.
To make a comparison. Most Asteroids orbit the Sun, pretty much the same as the Earth. We all head in the same direction. The Russian Asteroid most of us have checked out on YouTube, it was a chunk of rock material that intersected the orbit of the Earth, but as we know so far, it has basically been playing tag with the Earth for several thousands of years, before finally, the Earth's gravity, altered the Rocks orbit to the point that it slammed into our atmosphere.
You could regard this incident as a side swipe. A bit of panel damage, something the Insurance company wouldn't be bothered with.
A comet is more like a Head On Collision.
These beasts come winging from deep outer space. They are falling towards the Sun. They can hit the Earth at five times the speed that the Russian bolide did.
The Russian bolide was about 50 meters across. A comet nucleus is about 5 to 10kms across.

[BHDOGS]

A round or barrel universe have heard that theory before it explains why there would be no edges and why traveling up and down in space to other galaxys is possible instead of a flat line so to speak. It would also explain that universes are infact like a child born in a big bang altho it wasnt really an explosion it was an expansion where its "born" with 4 constants gravity electromagnativity low and strong nuclear forces plus all the necessitates to create stars suns ect. and in the end i suppose even life. Which slowly drifts apart into oblivion or death. Almost like a shotgun blast. Does that mean then that life is infact living and dieing else where in another space or parallel dimension?. As space only exists inside our universe so outside of our universe we couldnt be percieved by other spaces or alternatively we couldn't perceive them effectively cut off by whatever it is that separates us Like gunshots in the night living and dieing In an endless cycle. But these are just side show questions to the main questions 1.what caused the expansion to start in the first place as the big bang theory only applys to after the event happened it doesn't theorize at all about what caused it. 2 whether the entire process is geared towards so many possibilities occurring that life such as us is bound to occur and thats the entire point of the process or if we are just a cosmic accident. Atleast thats my limited knowledge on the subject put into a type of coherent statement.

[BHDOGS]

Also this might come in handy for some people.

There are also some very big questions the big bang theory doesn't address:

What happened before the big bang? According to our understanding of science, we can't know. The very laws of science break down as we approach t = 0 seconds. In fact, since the general theory of relativity tells us that space and time are coupled, time itself ceases to exist. Since the answer to this question lies outside the parameters of what science can address, we can't really hypothesize about it.

What lies beyond the universe? Again, this is a question science can't address. That's because we can't observe or measure anything that lies outside the boundaries of the universe. The universe may or may not be expanding within some other structure, but it's impossible for us to know either way.

What is the shape of the universe? There are many theories about what shape the universe might have. Some believe that the universe is unbounded and shapeless. Others think the universe is bounded. The big bang theory doesn't specifically address the issue.

Not everyone subscribes to the big bang theory. Why do they disagree with the theory, and what are some of the alternate models for our universe?

[BHDOGS]

And some alternative big bang theorys that could be just as correct interestingly the most closley matching one is also the most insane.

There are several alternative models that attempt to explain the development of the universe, though none of them have as wide an acceptance as the big bang theory:

The steady-state model of the universe suggests the universe always had and will always have the same density. The theory reconciles the apparent evidence that the universe is expanding by suggesting that the universe generates matter at a rate proportionate to the universe's rate of expansion.

The Ekpyrotic model suggests our universe is the result of a collision of two three-dimensional worlds on a hidden fourth dimension. It doesn't conflict with the big bang theory completely, as after a certain amount of time it aligns with the events described in the big bang theory.

The big bounce theory suggests our universe is one of a series of universes that first expand, then contract again. The cycle repeats after several billion years.

Plasma cosmology attempts to describe the universe in terms of the electrodynamic properties of the universe. Plasma is an ionized gas, which means it's a gas with free roaming electrons that can conduct electricity.

[Madaya]

Oh, how I love Fred Hoyle (= Steady State Theory), not because I think he was right, but because from the age of 10, thanks to my Dad, he made me think. Here I am today, almost 50 and my Dad is slowly slipping into Alzheimer's and we still discuss Hoyle.
Earlier tonight, a mate who holds a doctorate in Chemical Engineering, flew into town to do some stuff for the Big one. We had a great reunion (= beer and chips) and he was saying how he is considering doing a math/physics degree so as he could branch out into astro physics. He threw me a huge complement, recognising that I have the ability to describe a concept, but lack of mathematical capacity to descipe it. This bloke deserves a Nobel already for work already done, but he is chasing the math/physics to go further. This is a guy who strip a motor down to its last bolt and build it again - currently building a Cafe Racer motor bike.
BHDOGS, we are minds left in the passing of those greater than ours.

[buggo]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

And some alternative big bang theorys that could be just as correct interestingly the most closley matching one is also the most insane.

There are several alternative models that attempt to explain the development of the universe, though none of them have as wide an acceptance as the big bang theory:

The steady-state model of the universe suggests the universe always had and will always have the same density. The theory reconciles the apparent evidence that the universe is expanding by suggesting that the universe generates matter at a rate proportionate to the universe's rate of expansion.

The Ekpyrotic model suggests our universe is the result of a collision of two three-dimensional worlds on a hidden fourth dimension. It doesn't conflict with the big bang theory completely, as after a certain amount of time it aligns with the events described in the big bang theory.

The big bounce theory suggests our universe is one of a series of universes that first expand, then contract again. The cycle repeats after several billion years.

Plasma cosmology attempts to describe the universe in terms of the electrodynamic properties of the universe. Plasma is an ionized gas, which means it's a gas with free roaming electrons that can conduct electricity.

This topic really gets me excited. Just the knowledge that is out there waiting to be figured out is just incredible to me.
I've been reading up on the start of this universe and the Big Bounce theory makes sense to me.
The universe is expanding. This is undisputed fact. 'Dark energy' is the antonym to gravity, it creates its own atoms from an intense vacuum in deep space (about 10 atoms square metre, insanely less then can be reproduced in any lab). This energy created pushes against the force of gravity trying to bring everything back.
It's theorised that once this 'energy' (it's not really known what it is yet. It works with functions of quantum mechanics so it does exist, just don't know how yet) runs out, the force of gravity will pull in the entire universe to a single atom once again, thus starting over the cycle of the big bang and giving birth to new life to figure itself out.

For anyone who's into this kind of stuff, I highly recommend going to youtube and searching for 'Neil deGrasse Tyson'. He is one of the great minds of our time and everything that comes from his mouth captures you.
I've watched many lectures and talks of his that go for well over an hour and not get bored once. In fact I was wanting more when it was over.
His ways and views are the change that is needed in the world.

[ryeman]

BBC Knowledge is showing a 2013 series on stars with Dr Brian Cox and the work toward harnessing fusion energy .... amazing

[gtfpv]

very interesting reading the thoughts here guys .
i for one think the universe is one , with no end , area and space is not a concept in this dimension , thats something we humans invented and forever change as technology allows us to look further , i like to think that as far as we can comprehend is still infinitely small on the scale of infinity .
the things which challenge my thinking are our concept of God , infinity , no proof yet of other life , we arent going to find any with our limits , so theyll have to find us , secrecy - if that is infact going on , and expiry . we live so short , and we dont know if we existed before birth or if we'll ever exist again after death . in short we're making it all up then trying to invent tools to see about it .
As far as i go with this thinking though , the nearest reallness i have of it is , trying to explian a mobile phone or 747 . to a cave man , is it something he could never entertain , nor ever know , and are we the same in our own time , do we come and go in just our little brief of time .
Now imagine a know all very old species of life out there who have simply discovered most things , and come to the conclusion that its not important to them , and the most important thing is the next meal and enjoying the limited days they have untill they die .

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by buggo

This topic really gets me excited. Just the knowledge that is out there waiting to be figured out is just incredible to me.
I've been reading up on the start of this universe and the Big Bounce theory makes sense to me.
The universe is expanding. This is undisputed fact. 'Dark energy' is the antonym to gravity, it creates its own atoms from an intense vacuum in deep space (about 10 atoms square metre, insanely less then can be reproduced in any lab). This energy created pushes against the force of gravity trying to bring everything back.
It's theorised that once this 'energy' (it's not really known what it is yet. It works with functions of quantum mechanics so it does exist, just don't know how yet) runs out, the force of gravity will pull in the entire universe to a single atom once again, thus starting over the cycle of the big bang and giving birth to new life to figure itself out.

For anyone who's into this kind of stuff, I highly recommend going to youtube and searching for 'Neil deGrasse Tyson'. He is one of the great minds of our time and everything that comes from his mouth captures you.
I've watched many lectures and talks of his that go for well over an hour and not get bored once. In fact I was wanting more when it was over.
His ways and views are the change that is needed in the world.

If big bounce theory was correct that means since the universe is so large every possibility is also possible we may infact have lived millions or billions of times before as a race/person or since were all made up of the same material as everything in the universe. We may infact have been part of a planet in one bounce then destroyed and reborn as humans this bounce. Its mind boggling stuff.

[BHDOGS]

I thought id post this to add a little fun about this subject

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn7-fVtT16k

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

there are more stars in the universe than there are grains of sand on earth . . but i'm not quite sure if anyones actually proved this one .

not proven by a full count, but by estimates (eg count how many grains are in a cm3 of sand). Have a look at google sky to get an idea of how many stars are visible (you can zoom and zoom and they just keep coming).

[buggo]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

If big bounce theory was correct that means since the universe is so large every possibility is also possible we may infact have lived millions or billions of times before as a race/person or since were all made up of the same material as everything in the universe. We may infact have been part of a planet in one bounce then destroyed and reborn as humans this bounce. Its mind boggling stuff.

Yeah it's really something that I don't think will ever truly be understood. Not from lack of inteligence, but just the fact it would be almost impossible to trace ourselves back to the elements of a previous universe.
There's theories (without data) that suggest there are as many universes as there are stars in this universe. Either just beginning, expanding (like us), contracting or imploding in itself. Thus restarting the process.
I've read that only the first 1/10,000,000th of a second is unknown as to how the big bang started. There's a thing known as a 'god particle' (not related to our gods so not going against t&c's mods. It's just its name.), but in order to actually know what it is and how it works, new physics need to be figured out.
The concept of quantum physics break down in this initial starting of the big bang, and obviously physics from here on Earth don't apply either.
Once this is figured out, the big bang will be properly explain and then I suppose will lead to new discoveries that link us to an older origin. The big bounce, or whatever becomes of it.
Like you said, we are probably just part of a cycle of infinite life. The process repeating itself over and over. Giving birth to new breeds of life and interstellar systems, waiting for the new kids to once again evolve into intelligent life and ask why. And then not only ask but find the answer, eventually heeding to the universe and being once again recycled to start the process over.

I think that's beauty in its highest and simplest form. The perfect system that works from literally nothing. It's its nothing that allows it to create itself. We are all connected to every star, every planet with the same elements. We are all connected to the stars we see, not only emotionally, but chemically as well.
And I know I shouldn't be saying this, but to me knowing this is better than believing in a god. We are not pawns created to be compliant to the Bible, Koran, etc. We are our own selves with an active part in the
universe. We have ourselves to thank for our achievements, and have an infinite sky to explore. This empowers me more than a book or the fear of hell ever could.