Gm asked to give up Holden brand name?

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by Maka

Holdens lineup & price points will be key no doubt about it, how they change market perceptions & what "incentives" they offer (to change any negative perception about them) will be interesting to watch in the next couple of years.

cheers, Maka

This. With the Commodore going, the Holden brand could well be 'on the nose' with buyers.

They are already planning to bring in the Cadillac brand and if the Camaro comes, surely it will be badged as a Chevrolet.

[KiwiKilda]

You would think that with Australia with a Technical Edge
and Leadership shown by Drivers like Hulme and Brabham
a real instead of a "Pretend" Australian Brand or Marque could be formed

The Truth is it is technical political and ideological subservience that is the "issue"

Australia should be designing and manufacturing it's own military equipment on shore as well " Like it used to"

To use an example
Review "The Diggers Darling" the australian made and designed
Owen Submachine gun and the story behind that

delaying its production is estimated as costing 20,000 australian lives
and when soemone does something superior here there is that
patronising stupidity that we should take all our lead from "offshore"
Brands are one thing

Aus made Holdens and Fords were great Cars

I don't think when it comes to manufacturing and its real importance
people fail to realise the course they are setting for this Country?

The Owen Submachine Gun and the Repco Brabham
are my two favourites of Australian industrial Design

The story behind them is as important as the technical superiority they had for their time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owen_Gun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brabham_BT24

http://youtu.be/Km65jQdT8V8

Formula 1: Nurburgring 1967 Race Review

What went wrong? Was that not enough of an example?

You can only create and environment for manufacturing when you
are a "technical nationalist" and "patriot"

Our political leaders will whine about branding while ignoring
all the hurdles they put up

and the focus in western society is on bribing with welfare for votes
instead of tax breaks for "Research and Development" on shore

[Maka]

It would probably be cheaper for GM to stay with the current Holden branding imo & i want Holden to stay obviously but i guess it'll be a punt for GM (on how successful Holden 2.0 is) & the bottom line is have GM got the money, time & product to punt in the current economic climate?

cheers, Maka

[Nikked]

So apparently GM today has stated that more model's will come from Korea...due to favourable FTA's...

[Maka]

Kiwikilda, you raise valid points in your post & i also believe that one day Oz should have its own car manufacturer - sooner rather than later. Economics & politics aside, the national pride & self esteem garnered by successful Australian innovation & technical excellence on a global scale would be a great nation building exercise that may spur greater entrepreneurial activity in Australia - it only takes one person with vision (& a ton of cash) to start that dream

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...115-30ucr.html

Imo, Gm Korea will probably soon realise it needs to read the "how to book" by VW, Ford or Toyota & that means making & selling class leading or near top of the class vehicles at competitive prices... Sales for Gm globally rose 4% last year, how much of that was due to sales from Korea? The cars are well built from there from what i hear, i wonder is it just the dowdy designs that lack any pretence of brilliance or technical innovation? I hope Holden does not become the Crazy Johns of auto manufacturing in Asia Pacific...

cheers, Maka

[Kieron]

Holden switching back to Opel based cars -

http://www.caradvice.com.au/266610/h...w-euro-lineup/

[KiwiKilda]

, you raise valid points in your post & i also believe that one day Oz should have its own car manufacturer - sooner rather than later. Economics & politics aside, the national pride & self esteem garnered by successful Australian innovation & technical excellence on a global scale would be a great nation building exercise that may spur greater entrepreneurial activity in Australia - it only takes one person with vision (& a ton of cash) to start that dream

<
It is actually more important than that
It is integral for Australian Survival IMHO
Katter is the only person to even hint at the Strategic importance of manufacturing

The Next Pacific War will come and what will Aus do then

??? import ??? from Asia (Nice plan) hope it works

because them Yankees are going to be busy or distracted

People think I am a Nut for Saying this "Fine"

Read your own History and Learn Something from it

This is bigger than Brands or Cars "Mate"

China can do it because the
Communist Party - The Peoples Liberation Army - Chinese Business

are the "Same thing"

You will see

and why can't we?????? because all the little traitors
don't want us to - never have and never will

It is that simple

Look at the Criminal Delays to the "Owen" and ask yourself
why with everything that has gone down in AUstralias short History

Why is Australia not independent when it comes to

"technology" and "manufacturing"

and "technology" just means "making things"

Cars and everything and anything else "essential" it might need
in a hurry in the Future

Visionaries like Owen tried Long before 1939 to prep for what might come
around the corner
http://youtu.be/mmAigxjQbtE

Kind of over the Current Australian Mantra
of excuses

NO DON"T CAN'T

People for sound reasons have been trying to build manufacturing
on shore since the 1930's for good reasons

http://www.owenguns.com/owen-gun-boo...un-war-crimes/

[Maka]

Kiwikilda, your passion is commendable but please stay on topic or start your own new thread.

My reply to you was polite & on subject MATE

cheers, Maka

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Kieron

Holden switching back to Opel based cars[/url]

Makes me wonder whether this is the real reason behind the sudden exit of Opel, that Holden's exit was planned a while back.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Kieron

Holden switching back to Opel based cars -

http://www.caradvice.com.au/266610/h...w-euro-lineup/

Those Opel's will compete much better in class on quality alone, priced right they potentially can reach top 3 - 5 easily imo. I'm not sure but if GM / Opel offer maybe 4wd in a hero grunter Astra (ala VW Golf) the top guys in class could have a problem . You never know that 4wd Insignia may make an appearence after all if total sales go well. Whatever GM do, I hope the Opel based cars do well for Holden in the coming years here in Oz!

With the Koreans, imo they dont have that much to do but they have to shake their monkey of their back (more improved quality, excitement & innovation etc), which is nothing a good designer worth his salt cant do with enough resources & parent company backing!

cheers, Maka

[Nikked]

During the week I have seen 3 different reports.


-Holdens range will be all Korean.

-HSV and SS models will be produced in the US

-Holdens will be Opels.

[Maka]

Ive read them all too Nikked, if Holden are here to stay the 2nd & 3rd options are paramount or they're on a slippery slope imo. I hope GM shows Holden 2.0 respect & looks after them properly.

cheers, Maka

[KiwiKilda]

Maka

For you
the Best Branding (My absolute favourite) I have ever seen
prepare for the Asian Century because this is what the
21st Century and 21st Century Branding is about
and that is if it is a "Car" or in this case "Milk"

http://www.therealstevegray.com/2012...reast-formula/

http://www.cowala.co.nz/

NZ milk Branded with an Ozzie animal
then 2 give it real authenticity
a picture of the "NZ prime minister"
and da bad chinglish strap line

Here is it?

Not "Here it is"

See if you have an office in Aus
all your cars are OZZIE

likewise if you own one farm all your milk is clean grean kiwi milk
or is it ozzie any way you get what they mean
and if you are confused ask a

Cowala

Branding is a very important way to lie to consumers

And Australian Icons are open for abuse
like the Roo on Cigarette Packets

BAT
Winfields attack on Brand Australia
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ette-packaging

Maybe Cowala could replace "Holden"

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/bri...-1226242999042

That is BAT's attack on Australia for gvt restrictions to save lives
either way you look at it Branding is WAR

Mate

Ford Kept Ford because a Ford is a Ford is a Ford
so what was a Holden anyway just a
pretend aussie car and a pretend aussie brand

like cowala

[DFB FGXR6]

Regarding Opel models returning as Holdens again, didn't they dump them in the first place because they were losing money on importing them from high-cost Europe rather than low-cost Korea.

So what has changed in the last few years that has made the euro-cars a better business proposition for Holden? It works for Ford because its 'euro' cars are made in free trade Thailand.

To many what ifs are swirling around at the moment regarding future Holden product. A Holden engineer remarked to me the other day that nothing particularly special is in the pipeline regarding future product, specifically youth/enthusiast orientated.

[Maka]

Kiwikilda, whether or not the brands here are owned by Australia one important fact remains & that is these companies employ Australians get it! You can wax lyrically all you want, my primary concern with this issue is to see Aussies have work & for those Holden workers to have work we need.... Holden to be successful!

So are you saying these brands should go back to where they come from because they're fake & these Aussies lose their jobs?

Holden was a fully owned Australian company a long, long time ago you know that right?

(The history of Holden dates back to 1856 when it started as a saddlery business in South Australia, Holdens own words)

cheers, Maka

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Regarding Opel models returning as Holdens again, didn't they dump them in the first place because they were losing money on importing them from high-cost Europe rather than low-cost Korea.

So what has changed in the last few years that has made the euro-cars a better business proposition for Holden? It works for Ford because its 'euro' cars are made in free trade Thailand.

To many what ifs are swirling around at the moment regarding future Holden product. A Holden engineer remarked to me the other day that nothing particularly special is in the pipeline regarding future product, specifically youth/enthusiast orientated.

That's correct, Opal prices were labelled uncompetitive because the opposition was thousands cheaper and Opal couldn't make a profit on it trying to sell at premium prices. Can't see how slapping Holden badges on them will make 1 iota of difference here.

Which makes the story about more Korean GM products more plausible.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by KiwiKilda

Maka

For you ...

WTF?! I'm sure it made sense in your head, but the rest of us are slowly backing away while someone quickly dials the mental ward....

[KiwiKilda]

the mental ward....

That is "Branding in the 12st Century" if it crazy
it is not because of me but that is what they are doing now in branding?

an australian animal (icon) on NZ Milk (with a Prime Minister)

Political Leader have rubber stamped this Car Making Farce for years

Roos on Cigerettes to make people aspire to be Aussie
another example of twisting what Aus is about to make $

The exit of "Pretend Aus Brands" from Aus is a good thing in some peoples opinion
every Australian worker and business has been proping up and
subsidising the inefficiency and excesses of the Motor INdustry

I know it is not a good thing but this article below gives the other side of the coin

>
But here's the sting that's hurt average Australians for a long time. Over the past 12 years, Holden has received $2.2 billion in taxpayers' money. This means that taxpayers have been paying about $48,000 a year per Holden worker.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/comment/holden...#ixzz2qhF5dGkg



http://www.smh.com.au/comment/holden...214-2zdvv.html

[Maka]

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/party-...104-2wwux.html

Here we go again lol, with thanks to the SMH -


"Supporting this industry is not a case of throwing good money after bad. Far from it. For the $2.7 billion the Labor federal government invested in this industry, we saw $26 billion in new investment. That's a return on investment of almost 9:1, impressive in any terms.
And if you think the auto industry gets a lot more government support than other industries, you're wrong. The federal government spends more on grain, sheep and beef than auto. More on primary production, more on mining.

The government of every other car-making country around the world understands the value of the auto industry. That's why the US spends the equivalent of $264 per person supporting car making, 14 times more than Australia does. Germany spends $90 per person, five times more than Australia. This puts the $18 per person we spend in perspective. There is not a car on the road that isn't supported by a government somewhere.

But Australia has to compete for automotive investment. The high Australian dollar has increased production costs by 30 per cent. Holden has 168 other plants around the world. If we want their investment, if we want the jobs for Australians they create, we need to fight for it.

The automotive industry is the keystone of manufacturing in this country. Make no mistake: if it goes, other industries will follow"

Kim Carr


Germany are extremly proud of their car industry & the reason is their government & auto industry are partners who work together & understand the fact that creating jobs & making profit from smart investments equal a prosperous nation. Germany seems to have the right balance between the unions & their auto makers.

cheers, Maka

[b0son]

Maka, the big difference with the amount of support industries like mining and agriculture get is the export dollars they bring in. The auto industry does not pull its weight in that regard.

And if the 9:1 investment return ratio is so true, the question has to be asked... why are neither the Vic nor SA state governments willing to put their own money in? If you offered that sort of return to an investor, you couldn't keep them away.

[Bossxr8]

The Vic government couldn't even find that sort of cash in their disastrous budget.

[ebxr8240]

Football, meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars ...?? Hmm ??

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The Vic government couldn't even find that sort of cash in their disastrous budget.

They wouldn't need to. If the return really is 9:1, they'd have no trouble borrowing it.

[Davehoos]

Kim Carr

claimed auto industry was gushing cash...seen the books he as.
plenty of fiddle their for union training there is.


I believe that certain industry are good at return on investment and its overdue for some direction.

Leyland Australia was the last government owned auto company.
made money just not cars.

best thing ever for Newcastle was end of BHP and change in politics.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by b0son

They wouldn't need to. If the return really is 9:1, they'd have no trouble borrowing it.

so the state's fund it, and the fed's benefit..

the return for the state would be minimal, but not for the fed gov..

[b0son]

Originally Posted by burnz

so the state's fund it, and the fed's benefit..

The fact the feds didn't fund it, suggests the return is not nearly as profound If it were, then obviously they would.

Just because there's economic activity, doesn't mean its improving the national economy.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by b0son

Maka, the big difference with the amount of support industries like mining and agriculture get is the export dollars they bring in. The auto industry does not pull its weight in that regard.

And if the 9:1 investment return ratio is so true, the question has to be asked... why are neither the Vic nor SA state governments willing to put their own money in? If you offered that sort of return to an investor, you couldn't keep them away.

Yes boson i agree on the lack of Aussie car exports, fact is we have no local car manufacturers only overseas makers who are leaving Australia for Asia - better manufacturing enviroment or Lima Agreement, or both hand in hand?

http://justgroundsonline.com/forum/t...ma-declaration


What stops that state gov investment - policy. Adhering to Lima guidelines again & both state gov's broke anyway? Also private investors scared because of Lima Agreement limitations concerning indiginous local car making?

For me atm this whole debate (Oz car making) throws up more questions than answers unfortunately.

cheers, Maka

[KiwiKilda]

we had a Holden Kingwood from the 70's to early 80's

While looking into the Origins or Brands
because "Story Telling" is a Form of Brand communication

It is truly fascinating to study "Ford" Ford kept it "Ford"
Gm made it Holden

Fords approach (to brand) has been more sound
was a ford before they came will still be a Ford when they have left

they may come again but?

What fascinates me about Henry Ford is this (see link below)

Now one thing you have to admit is he made a good car and he still does
and the general principles of Mass transportation have not been
flushed down the dunny on Fords

But

He was an firm supporter of Adolph Hitler

http://voices.yahoo.com/henry-fords-...y-1332859.html

Not many people realist the foundation of the Ford Brand and
politics is always a large part of transportation
train car whatever

The Economic Struggles and Turmoil of the 30's are not dis unlike the GFC

When analysing the Origin of German Manufacturing and Car Brands
an interesting book must be referred to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany_Must_Perish!

One things Germans have learned from their History and the
importance of Manufacturing is this

Debt is Slavery

And the destruction of Manufacturing in Aus can only increase debt

Agree with Him or Not
Henry Ford understood what Forces were at play
to succeed he must have

Politic and War have always been part of the Manufacturing Equation

I wonder if all those redundant workers will do something useful
like help re equip the ADF