How to Ressurect the Australian Car

[roddy1960]

G'day....Denmark has a different demographic and circumstances , that's a given but their population is about a quarter of ours..They have never really been a car manufacturer to any degree but now they design and build this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6miOSw9_3xk....

Okay , it mightn't be the sort of car we'd want to build one day but my point is that with the intellectual property capabilities of the car industry out there from at least three major car companies ,( Ford ,GMH and Toyota), the manufacturing hardware capability that we've had , the financial and material resources we have then it's all there. Then you remove the shackles of being 'owned' by the overseas parent companies and the ingenuity that could be out there , we'd be dumb to say that this country will never return to some form of auto manufacture if the right circumstances and due diligence come along.
If this pie in the sky was to ever happen it would need to meet two important criteria..Top quality and export in mind right from the outset because like the Danish offering it'd be a smallish but profitable market with innovation and or performance as it's key marketability.
Most would doubt that it could ever happen but circumstances can change and it'd be awesome to think that it wasn't impossible at some stage..
Never say never...You never know what may happen...
Cheers Rod..

[b0son]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

G'day....Denmark has a different demographic and circumstances , that's a given but their population is about a quarter of ours..They have never really been a car manufacturer to any degree but now they design and build this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6miOSw9_3xk....

Our stillborn Joss JP1 comes to mind.... whats the closest we did get to production, the Alan Jones AJF1? The less said about that effort the better....

The Zenvo looks great, no doubt, but it doesnt look so great in flames, which IIRC is what a number of them did.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by roddy1960

G'day....Denmark has a different demographic and circumstances , that's a given but their population is about a quarter of ours..They have never really been a car manufacturer to any degree but now they design and build this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6miOSw9_3xk....

Okay , it mightn't be the sort of car we'd want to build one day but my point is that with the intellectual property capabilities of the car industry out there from at least three major car companies ,( Ford ,GMH and Toyota), the manufacturing hardware capability that we've had , the financial and material resources we have then it's all there. Then you remove the shackles of being 'owned' by the overseas parent companies and the ingenuity that could be out there , we'd be dumb to say that this country will never return to some form of auto manufacture if the right circumstances and due diligence come along.
If this pie in the sky was to ever happen it would need to meet two important criteria..Top quality and export in mind right from the outset because like the Danish offering it'd be a smallish but profitable market with innovation and or performance as it's key marketability.
Most would doubt that it could ever happen but circumstances can change and it'd be awesome to think that it wasn't impossible at some stage..
Never say never...You never know what may happen...
Cheers Rod..

Agree, things change and change again.

In 50 years time components may be so easily available or the outsourcing of manufacturing so straight forward that the big car companies may regress and boutique car makers may come to the fore.

Picture a scenario where you can design a car, pick the systems that go into it, the engine specs etc, entertainment systems, safety, design of the wheels and it rolls off a production line in China or Japan for delivery worldwide.

The automotive world evolves like anything else and so do production technologies.

Sounds far fetched now, in 2070 designing your first car may be a high school project.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by The Snout

Agree, things change and change again.

In 50 years time components may be so easily available or the outsourcing of manufacturing so straight forward that the big car companies may regress and boutique car makers may come to the fore.

Picture a scenario where you can design a car, pick the systems that go into it, the engine specs etc, entertainment systems, safety, design of the wheels and it rolls off a production line in China or Japan for delivery worldwide.

The automotive world evolves like anything else and so do production technologies.

Sounds far fetched now, in 2070 designing your first car may be a high school project.

Basic floorpan and running gear in left or right hand drive...people sending in files for 3D printed bodies (within limitations set by space requirements) to go on the floorpan.
By god there would be some abominations out there....

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Basic floorpan and running gear in left or right hand drive...people sending in files for 3D printed bodies (within limitations set by space requirements) to go on the floorpan.
By god there would be some abominations out there....

No doubt bad taste will still exist in 2070

On the other hand you may be able to do up a complete replica of a '78 Cobra Hardtop with mod cons.

The world of 1850 would go wow at the technology we have today. And I'd imagine if you took me to 2070 or 2170 I'd look like a deer in the headlights.

[sd6]

I have only flicked through the thread so apologies if my points have already been made. But imo there are a few major problems that killed local car manufacturing and i don't really think wages or cost of manufacture were to blame, may have attributed but not the sole cause. So many of who miss the falcon or the commodore, magna, camry etc, not many of us have bought a new one ever if not for a long time at least. Me for an example i have been born and raised in a family of falcon drivers, none of us ever bought new. Always 2-3 years old so none of us helped the industry. My current falcon is an 04 xr6, i love it. I would have bought a fgx turbo if i could but being 20 at the time when the last one rolled off the line just didn't make that a viable idea. Next issue is trends, 90% of the world follows trends. You look at your atypical Aussie family at the moment. The dad drives a lift kitted oversized ute of some brand or another, it is highly set up for off road use which he probably hardly if ever does (apologies to those who do), it handles poorly as a result and is less useful for his trade due to higher running cost and its extreme hight has surely got to get annoying chucking tools in the back every day. The car probably cost him 100k by the time its modified to his taste yet why does he drive it? because trends. The mum drives most likely an suv of some type, compared to the sedans and wagons it replaced it offers no real advantages, its hard to see out of, is big and space taking, average on fuel and doesn't really fit any more in it but all her friends have one so she needs it to. Then the kids drive a little bubble car of sorts, this has never really been different, they are cheap. The daughter is most likely to go for the getz or i30 while the son either that or if hes got more money an older ute or he is the sporty type in some sort of performance sedan, none of which really count because they are not new. If all of these cars were produced in Australia i am sure they would be bought just as much, and i am sure that 100k arb kitted Colorado could be manufactured here. There will come a time again when the falcon style car is in flavour again just this time it wont be made here because business is about profits and now they've left the country they wont come back. So in short the death of aussie cars was cheaper overseas manufacturing and trends making the cars being sold no longer in flavor. Ford for example should have aimed the falcon at the performance market and got serious about it, small sales higher dollar value. And in its place built a car to suit what the market that wants eg another one of the 100 suvs that look the same. In business you must either create trends or follow them, if you do neither you go bankrupt. There may well come a day when marketing an aussie made car again will generate sales, people will buy it because it will become trendy to be different, to support your country.

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by sd6

I have only flicked through the thread so apologies if my points have already been made. But imo there are a few major problems that killed local car manufacturing and i don't really think wages or cost of manufacture were to blame, may have attributed but not the sole cause. So many of who miss the falcon or the commodore, magna, camry etc, not many of us have bought a new one ever if not for a long time at least. Me for an example i have been born and raised in a family of falcon drivers, none of us ever bought new. Always 2-3 years old so none of us helped the industry. My current falcon is an 04 xr6, i love it. I would have bought a fgx turbo if i could but being 20 at the time when the last one rolled off the line just didn't make that a viable idea. Next issue is trends, 90% of the world follows trends. You look at your atypical Aussie family at the moment. The dad drives a lift kitted oversized ute of some brand or another, it is highly set up for off road use which he probably hardly if ever does (apologies to those who do), it handles poorly as a result and is less useful for his trade due to higher running cost and its extreme hight has surely got to get annoying chucking tools in the back every day. The car probably cost him 100k by the time its modified to his taste yet why does he drive it? because trends. The mum drives most likely an suv of some type, compared to the sedans and wagons it replaced it offers no real advantages, its hard to see out of, is big and space taking, average on fuel and doesn't really fit any more in it but all her friends have one so she needs it to. Then the kids drive a little bubble car of sorts, this has never really been different, they are cheap. The daughter is most likely to go for the getz or i30 while the son either that or if hes got more money an older ute or he is the sporty type in some sort of performance sedan, none of which really count because they are not new. If all of these cars were produced in Australia i am sure they would be bought just as much, and i am sure that 100k arb kitted Colorado could be manufactured here. There will come a time again when the falcon style car is in flavour again just this time it wont be made here because business is about profits and now they've left the country they wont come back. So in short the death of aussie cars was cheaper overseas manufacturing and trends making the cars being sold no longer in flavor. Ford for example should have aimed the falcon at the performance market and got serious about it, small sales higher dollar value. And in its place built a car to suit what the market that wants eg another one of the 100 suvs that look the same. In business you must either create trends or follow them, if you do neither you go bankrupt. There may well come a day when marketing an aussie made car again will generate sales in a patriotic sense, people will buy it because it will become trendy.

Good post.
The dads deisel powered 4wd ute costs just as much to fuel up as a corolla, and gets reasonable ks from a tank. If he is self employed it is also a tool of trade vehicle which is 100% claimable on his tax, or employer provided it is FBT exempt for the same reason saving $7k per year. Being twin cab he can also pick up the kids from soccer practice on the weekend, something he can't do with a falcon ute.
The mum loves her SUV as she sits higher making it easier to manoeuvre in car parks and thru traffic, she also doesn't need to bend down to strap junior into his car seat. It's all about versatility.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by The Snout

^ Well said.

I get Australian jobs but I also get protecting industry to the point they just churn out any old **** because they can with their tariff advantage and get paid by the tax payer to do it.

People can only see life from their own times they live in too. The Australian car industry was pretty short lived in terms of this country and it's history going forward. But because people were born during it and lived their whole lives in it they think it's always been part of the country.

In the end we produced a small car, SUV, performance cars and some very versatile large sedans. Toyota exported the majority of what they produced.So your point is invalid.

Also about tax payers, if we subsidies diesel fuel for mining companies, give a $50bil corporate tax cut, subsiside private schools and give welfare to mining companies, whats the issue with co-investing in an industry that returns several times its investment, not to mention the flow into the communuity? People may roll their eyes at ideas of revival etc but it's going to be a massive hit to the economy. Wait until it really hits then you might understand.

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

When you think about it, had the government continued to protect the local industry and imposed import tariffs, we would not have access to the wide range of affordable international vehicles that we do.

What needed to be in place was a mechanism that struck a balance between increasing competitiveness and protecting the industry like every.other.vehicle.producing.nation.

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.

Not only is that presumptuous but it's almost as if you're suggesting that it's wrong to be an enthusiast for local cars. The government had a responsibility to support the industry with a locally-made only policy for govt. cars but even the PMs car is a BMW it's pretty easy to see a naked ideology. If you are talking about a militant anti-import type of person I haven't seen many of those, if any.

Originally Posted by Nikked

-Population of America: 319 million.
-Population of Australia: 23 Million.

You really think that Australian manufactured cars can match what America does? American made cars account for around 60% of the 18 million annual sales also...

...and thats with no tariffs except for the "chicken tax", a tax placed on utes/pick up trucks.

Well it was viable for many, many decades, wasn't it.
If getting out was the right thing to do other nations would be doing it too. Sweden has a similar population to us, I might add and they thrive building premium cars.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

http://performancedrive.com.au/edito...lian-car-1200/

Does anyone think there's any possibility we'll see another Aussie car in some form or another? I sure hope so

No. Never.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

No. Never.

<sigh>

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

No. Never.

I think with the move toward electric, and with 3D-printing, we may see small-scale manufacturers appear using modular platforms with a great deal more customisability than we currently have. That said, if it did happen, there'd be little stopping one buying such a car on Alibaba, after all, China is likely where all the components would end up coming from.

[sd6]

Originally Posted by danzvtil

Good post.
The dads deisel powered 4wd ute costs just as much to fuel up as a corolla, and gets reasonable ks from a tank. If he is self employed it is also a tool of trade vehicle which is 100% claimable on his tax, or employer provided it is FBT exempt for the same reason saving $7k per year. Being twin cab he can also pick up the kids from soccer practice on the weekend, something he can't do with a falcon ute.
The mum loves her SUV as she sits higher making it easier to manoeuvre in car parks and thru traffic, she also doesn't need to bend down to strap junior into his car seat. It's all about versatility.

As i said atypical it was a generalization, 90% of those ute for example in my area are brand new, the driver is like 25, single or has one kid, has seriously spent 100k all up to own the thing to be a serious off road vehicle, boosted it massively and run straight through pipes on it then drives it on suburban roads with his led bars on blinding everyone. On the flip side there are others who have them stock using them as they were built doing exactly as you stated. I was mainly pointing out the trends, maybe the rest of the country is different but in my area it is almost a right of passage to be the guy i am talking about. My suburbs are filling up with them, you drive up new blocks and every house is the same. 10 years ago there was a trade ute, a mixed variety of cars from suv's, vans, sedans etc.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007
Whenever we have these threads, it amazes me how people throw out their opinions at what would have saved the industry, or worse they have a go at people who like having the choice of imported vehicles.
When in reality they are driving cars 20 plus years old and don't contribute at all to the Australian Manufacturing industry.
.[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Not only is that presumptuous but it's almost as if you're suggesting that it's wrong to be an enthusiast for local cars. The government had a responsibility to support the industry with a locally-made only policy for govt. cars but even the PMs car is a BMW it's pretty easy to see a naked ideology. If you are talking about a militant anti-import type of person I haven't seen many of those, if any.

.

Cant see how I'm being presumptuous or having a go at car enthusiasts.
you've got that all wrong, as well as suggesting if the Government used BMW's over locally produced cars by choice.
there were 7 specially built bullet proof BMW's purchased. Holden didn't bid for the work. and Ford were never in the picture
http://www.motoring.com.au/pm-abbott...s-are-go-48616

7 cars would not have saved any car industry

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

In the end we produced a small car, SUV, performance cars and some very versatile large sedans. Toyota exported the majority of what they produced.So your point is invalid.

Also about tax payers, if we subsidies diesel fuel for mining companies, give a $50bil corporate tax cut, subsiside private schools and give welfare to mining companies, whats the issue with co-investing in an industry that returns several times its investment, not to mention the flow into the communuity? People may roll their eyes at ideas of revival etc but it's going to be a massive hit to the economy. Wait until it really hits then you might understand.

I'd be more than happy to bring any unreasonable welfare offered into any other industry into check too. Just like the car industry, the less freeloaders the better. Encouragement needs to be offered, not entitlement.

In regards to rolling eyes at a revival, the world changes and can change again. There's every chance circumstances may bring manufacturing back to this country one day but I'm of the opinion it will be at a different time in history and in a vastly different implementation to what it is today.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

In the end we produced a small car, SUV, performance cars and some very versatile large sedans. Toyota exported the majority of what they produced.So your point is invalid.

"We produced"...by which you can read "Sold here after being imported from factories in Thailand"...

What needed to be in place was a mechanism that struck a balance between increasing competitiveness and protecting the industry like every.other.vehicle.producing.nation.

They needed to build different cars, full stop. The American masters only saw slow selling cars and an industry that didn't ant to go against "tradition", something that simply wasn't selling cars anymore here.

Well it was viable for many, many decades, wasn't it.
If getting out was the right thing to do other nations would be doing it too. Sweden has a similar population to us, I might add and they thrive building premium cars.

Those were the decades when the industry was heavily protected and, to be blunt, the car buyer didn't expect or know any better, as the public had never been exposed to anything other than lumbering American cars or unreliable English stodge. Australian cars were "all they thought they needed"...until they were exposed to Japanese cars, and boy that was a slap in the face for the local industry.

You don't make a success by telling the public what they need, and only producing what you think they should want. You produce what they do want.
Sweden builds "premium cars" because it's again, heavily protective of it's industry, and the cars they make suit their needs in all areas. They're not a one trick pony making one specific version of car. Ford and Holden became just that...the cars that did sell they were happy to import, the ones they made here were what they thought the public "should" want, but it didn't.
Swedens motor industry is the opposite of ours...we had very few exports, but survived on local sales. Sweden survives to a massive extent on exports...when SAAB fell over, it was a national disaster as it hit their economy big time.

There's no easy answers. Could we resurrect the industry? No. Not on any sound financial grounds. We can't suddenly produce a "prestige luxury car"...Lexus learned that hard when it came out with it's first luxury car. Wheels magazine and others all scoffed..."A $100,000 Toyota???", but then they tested it...and it won Car Of The Year, but boy did the public take some convincing. It took many years before Lexus was accepted as a legitimate luxury brand widely, and they only survived because they were a branch of Toyota and could use that manufacturing behemoth absorb any losses until it got on it's feet.
It would be super hard for Australia to come out with a one-make-brand all on it's own with no manufacturing base making (not importing, making) lots of other cars behind it to support the niche brand for possibly a decade until it "proved itself".
Sports cars are similarly hard to start off...several in Australia over the years have fallen hard on their faces, and you have to have "street cred" behind you which again is hard to produce instantly.

[Vesper Martini]

Yes I recall Sweden's favourite Saab fell over in 2011.

There was talk of them making a come back which was predicted to fail but I think the Saab name on cars has gone for good now.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Yes I recall Sweden's favourite Saab fell over in 2011.

There was talk of them making a come back which was predicted to fail but I think the Saab name on cars has gone for good now.

Towards the end they using the Subaru platform in the end with their own body mods and shapes.
Not a bad move when the chips are down and you can't afford to manufacture your own car from the ground up...pick a proven reliable mechanical platform and stick "whatever" on top of it, or lightly modify their car to look like yours. We see that today with the Mazda MX5/Fiat 124 Spider...same car, a few different tweaks by Fiat on a supremely successful and fun car to drive.

Australia couldn't do that because of our need for RHD cars and our unique design rules, meaning by the time you engineer the platform to suit your market, you may as well engineer the whole car yourself.

[Nikked]

With any european manufacturer, just look at the population and number of countries in close proximity of one another, including those that produce cars.

If your country cant produce a cost effective specific part, its only a truck or train ride away.

Australia's best chance would have been a proper 2 way export deal with china to produce cars...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Nikked

With any european manufacturer, just look at the population and number of countries in close proximity of one another, including those that produce cars.

If your country cant produce a cost effective specific part, its only a truck or train ride away.

To get a better grasp on what Nik said here's a distance comparison.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

To get a better grasp on what Nik said here's a distance comparison.

image

Yes, it makes it easier when "exporting" means a few hours on the back of a truck or railway carriage, rather than months at sea on a cargo ship...the costs would be negligible compared to us "exporting" cars.

[Sprintey]

So, with no industry any more, do we get to end ADRs & all the bureaucratic red tape and cost involved in being different to other parts of the world with our own unique system of compliance? I am good with that loss.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

such optimism...

The Australia car industry was created in another era when there were barriers in place to protect them (local content rules, tariffs, ADRs etc) and global sourcing from cheap, low cost countries had not yet been thought of.

These days company account departments look at the volumes for the Australian market, and determine the cost of duplicating an assembly plant in Australia for such low volumes with all the associated support systems is more expensive than slightly increasing the production volume of an existing assembly plant in some low cost country.

It is not rocket science.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

The Australia car industry was created in another era when there were barriers in place to protect them (local content rules, tariffs, ADRs etc) and global sourcing from cheap, low cost countries had not yet been thought of.

These days company account departments look at the volumes for the Australian market, and determine the cost of duplicating an assembly plant in Australia for such low volumes with all the associated support systems is more expensive than slightly increasing the production volume of an existing assembly plant in some low cost country.

It is not rocket science.

You are talking as if I don't know any of those things, which I have already covered. I'm not talking from the context of a large volume multinational, I mean a low-volume one like TomCar, except for road legal cars.

Originally Posted by Nikked

With any european manufacturer, just look at the population and number of countries in close proximity of one another, including those that produce cars.

If your country cant produce a cost effective specific part, its only a truck or train ride away.

Australia's best chance would have been a proper 2 way export deal with china to produce cars...

We still have a skeleton crew of some parts suppliers who have survived through diversification/pursuit of overseas businesses. The aftermarket also includes parts manufacturing and we now have carbon fibre car parts makers that are expanding in research and business. Not to mention the advent of 3D printing means more parts can be sourced in house. Ford and Holden were increasingly sourcing more and more components From China anyhow.

Originally Posted by Sprintey

So, with no industry any more, do we get to end ADRs & all the bureaucratic red tape and cost involved in being different to other parts of the world with our own unique system of compliance? I am good with that loss.

Well that's incidentally what could encourage a low volume upstart. In the current climate it would be impossible to compete with the established players on their own terms, but a few legislative tweaks means someone with a niche idea at least has a chance.

[Crazy Dazz]

Unfortunately for more than half a century we've had lefty politicians empowering unions, and both demanding unrealistic wages, and ultimately they have betrayed the workers they were meant to protect. Seems they would rather see people on the dole than submit to a sustainable wage. WHEN are these idiots going to learn that there is no "magic" entitlement, and you simply cannot enforce unsustainable wages long-term. FFS, its not rocket science. Much as you might like to believe that all bosses are spawns of the devil, hiding massive chests of gold from the workers, fact is that if you force them to pay workers more than they can afford, then either they find a way to game the system, or the jobs dry up.

[Syndrome]

Yes I remember the EBA discussions at our company - the union reps were always pushing their agenda on the employees.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Yes I remember the EBA discussions at our company - the union reps were always pushing their agenda on the employees.

OK I hope wherever you work you don't take any annual leave or sick days.

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Unfortunately for more than half a century we've had lefty politicians empowering unions, and both demanding unrealistic wages, and ultimately they have betrayed the workers they were meant to protect. Seems they would rather see people on the dole than submit to a sustainable wage. WHEN are these idiots going to learn that there is no "magic" entitlement, and you simply cannot enforce unsustainable wages long-term. FFS, its not rocket science. Much as you might like to believe that all bosses are spawns of the devil, hiding massive chests of gold from the workers, fact is that if you force them to pay workers more than they can afford, then either they find a way to game the system, or the jobs dry up.

If you want to scapegoat 'lefty politicians' for the downfall for the auto industry, you are an absolute goose. PLENTY of unionised countries still make cars. There were many factors making conditions unrealistic but the two biggest factors IMO were : not revising the Button plan and the Productivity Commission stripping funding, thus showing Toyota and Holden the government is apathetic to their business and basically goading them to pull out.

Let's say there was no union intervention, etc. You think wages would've been dropped down to Chinese-competitive levels? The company has the final call at the end of the day.

The demonisation of unions and tax-payers propping up auto industry was a nice little initiative drummed up by our tabloid rags.

This is why we can't have nice things, this is why we lose an auto industry and nobody cares or sees the value- because the crap Australians are willing to be spoon fed, the lack of quality discourse and the way anyone who differs from this half-witted torpor is ridiculed.

Unions are not the enemy- if you want to see the real enemy, look in Canberra and the think tanks/ corporations that get them into power (both of them). All you have to do is follow the money to see which barrow they push and its not for the greater good of the country. This union crap is a smokescreen.

If you want to put all this on unions then you've singled out one factor due to a confirmation bias and ran with it.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

This is what I mean- if someone overdelivers a premium, desirable product for small-scale production, then it's not impossible to imagine mild success. Especially now we have carbon fibre expertise in Australia now. We still have a lot of the ingredients even after the manufacturer-specific parts leave.

I think it's highly, highly unlikely for large-scale manufacturing to ever come back but if the planets did align as stated in the article, I wouldn't quite say it's impossible. I hope some people out there are planning it.

FalconXV, admire your passion for the subject. It seems Australia has chosen the raw materials/primary produce path (peek behind the housing/population and education/FIRE bubble).

What you are describing is being done by the UK, and done really well. JLR obtained foreign capital (Mr Tata had some great foresight and it's paying off nicely for him) and turned it into cutting edge, premium design that is demanded world wide. Over 80% are exports IIRC. Have a squizz at the forthcoming RR Velar, to see what their designers are capable of. They are also leading the way in alloy construction - I never really liked rust, anyway.

As you hinted, it was supported by the UK Government. Reading industry papers from after the GFC reveals the UKGov understanding the importance of manufacturing - and partnering companies in technology projects. It required investment and legislative conditions to make it succeed - and they did it.

It's been interesting to watch Australia (both sides of politics) go in the opposite direction. Oh well, back to my grandad getting pittance for his sugar cane, and having to buy everything from the refined product to his capital equipment from overseas for a lot more... History is cyclical, it seems.

[FalconXV]

Exactly, Sprintey! You're onto it mate.

[Sprintey]

Thanks mate. To go further: have a browse over at the manufacturing policy of One Nation. You will be smiling.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Thanks mate. To go further: have a browse over at the manufacturing policy of One Nation. You will be smiling.

Yeah nah.