NSW P-Plater restrictions - part two.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Its just as bad with all the 6cylinder falcons and commodores. Lots of cars they banned like porsche boxters and 350z are much safer than anything holden or ford have made.

And you base this amazing revelation on what exactly? Playground gossip? :evil_laug

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I would think that under normal and safe driving conditions a commodore or falcon will get out of shape easier than a porsche, skyline etc etc.

And how do you figure this? Yourn not thinking very hard at all are you, Porshe in the right hands is simply amazing, in the hands of your average clod its a lethal expensive tail heavy accident just waiting to happen.


Experience boys thats what you lack, and patience a little of both of those and you may become good drivers.
Crawl before you can walk it may hurt the ego but it save heaps on monumetal masonry.

[MITCHAY]

You can get outta shape in any car but these higher performance cars are designed for handling and control. Ive never seen a Porsche go sideways EVER when driving sensibily but have seen it with mums driving their kids in commodores and falcons. Ive seen porsches hammer corners way harder to the point where any commodore or falcon short of a V8 supercar would just crash and burn. Just tail a Carerra or GT3 and you will see the difference. On my Ls my mums commy got sideways without giving it anything at all. Watch the production car races for an example. The commys and falcons are sideways while the porsches and skylines are no way near.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

You can get outta shape in any car but these higher performance cars are designed for handling and control. Ive never seen a Porsche go sideways EVER when driving sensibily but have seen it with mums driving their kids in commodores and falcons. Ive seen porsches hammer corners way harder to the point where any commodore or falcon short of a V8 supercar would just crash and burn. Just tail a Carerra or GT3 and you will see the difference. On my Ls my mums commy got sideways without giving it anything at all. Watch the production car races for an example. The commys and falcons are sideways while the porsches and skylines are no way near.

Just more evidence of your lack of clues on the subject at hand, watching Jim Richards manhandle a porche around on slicks has no correlation to its behavior in the hands of the very inexperienced on street tyres and a wet track.

Yes mummys commodore can sling the tail out try the same lack of feel for the road and conditions at hand, in a porshe and you'll have something very expensive meeting the flora.

When will you guys catch on that magazine reviews by also-ran racers, and tv race commentary have no relation whatsoever to real world road condition and and actual road going variants of similar cars. I gues its that first impact? or maybe the third. _

[MITCHAY]

A car cannot speed it self its the driver. The majority cars both family and performance can do 200km/h. The difference is that they handle no way near the same. How can you say that a car designed for this isnt safer than a normal family car? Yes no car should be doin 200km/h to start with but if a car is designed to handle so well at those speeds then its basic logic that it will handle even better at slower speeds. All i know is id rather be in a Porsche crashing than a commodore.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

And you base this amazing revelation on what exactly? Playground gossip? :evil_laug

Uhh I have driven base model falcons/commodores and I own a XR8. The 350z's suspension is set to understeer if you drive it into a corner too fast and it has traction control, electronic stability control and side airbags.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

A car cannot speed it self its the driver. The majority cars both family and performance can do 200km/h. The difference is that they handle no way near the same. How can you say that a car designed for this isnt safer than a normal family car? Yes no car should be doin 200km/h to start with but if a car is designed to handle so well at those speeds then its basic logic that it will handle even better at slower speeds. All i know is id rather be in a Porsche crashing than a commodore.

You se thats the difference I'd rather not crash at all, and if you'd experienced it and paid the cost (yes even when your in the right) you might be able to grasp the concept.

If you'd ever been closer to a porshe than your nose on a magazine, then you'd know they can be scary things indeed, amazing in good hands, but the margin for error is many times less than a wheezing commodore. Ad not a car does not need to be anywhere near it terminal speed to become dangerous, high performance cars by their very nature push limits, of acceleration, of grip, of speed, but all this pushes them closer to inevitable physics. Those laws never change. Your comments and their innocent naivity just reinforce the idea that restricting access to inexperienced drivers is a sensible measure.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

You se thats the difference I'd rather not crash at all, and if you'd experienced it and paid the cost (yes even when your in the right) you might be able to grasp the concept.

If you'd ever been closer to a porshe than your nose on a magazine, then you'd know they can be scary things indeed, amazing in good hands, but the margin for error is many times less than a wheezing commodore. Ad not a car does not need to be anywhere near it terminal speed to become dangerous, high performance cars by their very nature push limits, of acceleration, of grip, of speed, but all this pushes them closer to inevitable physics. Those laws never change. Your comments and their innocent naivity just reinforce the idea that restricting access to inexperienced drivers is a sensible measure.

How exactly does higher grip levels = more dangerous at the speed limit?

[MITCHAY]

No ive never been in a porsche but you can see the difference in handling anyone who has eyes can. Ive been in a 280ZX and 300ZX TT and can say they handle WAY better than any falcon or commodore ive ever been in. Yes not exactly a porsche but if you catch a drift. You can hammer roundabouts and what not with even a tyre screech in these Zed cars where as otherwise you would spin out in a commodore or falcon. Yes your not meant to hammer anywhere in anything but if you get what im saying is anything designed for this sort of driving has got to be safer than any falcon or commodore.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

How exactly does higher grip levels = more dangerous at the speed limit?

That grip is far from consistent, and if it lets go at a higher speed, (not always the same higher speed) the th ability to to exit that spin are greatly reduced. A wideer tyre for example will give you muck more grip in a straight line, but put it on a wet or uneven surface and rethink the equation, thats why we have laws regulating those too!

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

No ive never been in a porsche but you can see the difference in handling anyone who has eyes can. Ive been in a 280ZX and 300ZX TT and can say they handle WAY better than any falcon or commodore ive ever been in. Yes not exactly a porsche but if you catch a drift. You can hammer roundabouts and what not with even a tyre screech in these Zed cars where as otherwise you would spin out in a commodore or falcon. Yes your not meant to hammer anywhere in anything but if you get what im saying is anything designed for this sort of driving has got to be safer than any falcon or commodore.

No its not! Ask any insurance company, there records aren't speculation they are dollars and cents.

You dont get it do you? The higher the lever of refinement the less the margin for error. The fine handlers may stick better but when they dont its trouble. And inexperience in such cars is a recipie for disaster they are very very forgiving, up to a point !!! After that you need an ambulance, spin moomy commodore at low speed and all you need is a towie and a new mailing address...

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

That grip is far from consistent, and if it lets go at a higher speed, (not always the same higher speed) the th ability to to exit that spin are greatly reduced. A wideer tyre for example will give you muck more grip in a straight line, but put it on a wet or uneven surface and rethink the equation, thats why we have laws regulating those too!

Uhh a wider tyre is better on an uneven surface due to a smaller % of the contact patch being affected by an irregularity in the road and it only reduces resistance to aquaplaning in standing water not performance on wet roads.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Uhh a wider tyre is better on an uneven surface due to a smaller % of the contact patch being affected by an irregularity in the road and it only reduces resistance to aquaplaning in standing water not performance on wet roads.

Lucky NSWs potholed tip yard road surfaces never have puddles then. Oh hang on late mail, they do, and water drifts and icy patches, might be why overwidth tyres are illegal!

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

From a study conducted by the Uni of WA and printed in the Sunday Times in WA:

Young drivers are no more likely to have a fatal or serious crash in a powerful car than in other vehicles, research has revealed.
The University of WA study-the first of it's type in the world-dismissed the myth that vehicle performance is a major cause of crashes for young, novice drivers.
Road Safety Council chairman Grant Dorrington said the study showed that most fatal and serious crashes among drivers in their first two years of holding a license did not involve powerful vehicles.
And reprt author Peter Palamara said less powerful, smaller & lighter cars could be more dangerous in crashes because they could offer less protection.
"Smaller cars with low power-to-weight ratios can also offer very poor protection against injury because of their low vehicle mass" he said. "About 20-30% of risk of being killed in a crash can be attributed to vehicle mass - the greater the mass of the car, the greater chance of surviving the crash".
He said that restricting young drivers from having more powerful cars could also deny them the safety of bigger cars. The UWA inquiry research centre study, commissioned by the safety council, called for the proposed restrictions on high powered vehicles for novice drivers to be dismissed. Victoria already has such restrictions and NSW likely to follow.
But Mr Dorrington said the research centre recommended that the speeding behaviour of young novice drivers be targeted through changes to the licensing & penalty system, not through access to certain types of vehicles. He said it also reccommended that educational materials be developed and give to both novice drivers & parents highlighting safety features & the need for such drivers to use vehicles that provided them with greater safety & protection.
The study examined 662 serious-injury crashes in 1999 & 2000 in WA, and drivers which had not crashed.
The power to weight ratio of the crashed vehicles was calculated & compared with the power-to weight ratio of vehicles driven by novice drivers who did not crash in the same period. Only 3% of crashed vehicles had a power-to-weight ratio of more than 100kw a tonne.
And only 2 vehicles had power-to-weight ratios above 125kw a tonne, which was the exclusion point under Victorian legislation. Mr Dorrington said the study highlighted speeding as a cause of most serious crashes involving novice drivers & it was common knowledge that speed was the cause of death in 33% of fatalities. But Mr Palamara said people did not have to drive powerful cars to speed. Mr Dorrington said young, inexperienced drivers aged 17-24 were grossly over-represented in the road statistics. They comprised 30% of all fatalities, even though they represented only 14% of WA licence holders.
"Consequently, we beleive the proposals for novice drivers which are currently up for public discussion could save up to 28 young lives a year on WA roads".
Those proposals revealed by the Sunday Times earlier this month included a night curfew & a total alcohol ban for young drivers.

There you go some research although not my own (thanx Fairmont99) . If this is true than why not ban all cars seeing as though this information states that you are no more likely to to die in a high po car than any other car and seeing as though this is the reasoning for banning high po cars in the first place.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Lucky NSWs potholed tip yard road surfaces never have puddles then. Oh hang on late mail, they do, and water drifts and icy patches, might be why overwidth tyres are illegal!

Why did they allow the viper to be sold here with 335 tyres then? Its more to do with people messing up the suspension settings and having tyres that can hit the wheelarch or stick out. Saying that performance cars are dangerous because they have more grip and wider tyres is silly.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

There you go some research although not my own (thanx Fairmont99) . If this is true than why not ban all cars seeing as though this information states that you are no more likely to to die in a high po car than any other car and seeing as though this is the reasoning for banning high po cars in the first place.

No the reason for banning HiPo cars from the inexperienced is there lack of experience, not to mention their KNOW IT ALL attitudes. Thankfully insurance costs, purchase prices, and downright common sense of the owners will keep these things the hell away from the P-plate warriors, yes you can still wrap your laser around trees, but it leaves a lesser dent.

Save your posts stick them in your scrap book and read them in 10 years time, see if you bravado is the same then, read them again when you have a family and offspring near driving age and you will recognise the terror!

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

Why did they allow the viper to be sold here with 335 tyres then? Its more to do with people messing up the suspension settings and having tyres that can hit the wheelarch or stick out. Saying that performance cars are dangerous because they have more grip and wider tyres is silly.

Claiming encyclopedic knowledge without ever having piloted any one of these cars is silly. Bravado is a dangerous thing.

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Claiming encyclopedic knowledge without ever having piloted any one of these cars is silly. Bravado is a dangerous thing.

A xr8 isnt a performance car these days?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

A xr8 isnt a performance car these days?

Always were in my book, though by todays standards the early ones would hardly rate. But XR8 is just one of many cars out there, the more yu drive the more you learn. I find my XR8 a safe performance car but there are a lot of people i wont let drive it.

[Quasi]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

A xr8 isnt a performance car these days?

That's a fairly broad statement, considering the forum you're on.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

A 350z or xr8 can travel at the speed limit like any other car and they are not any harder to drive at these speeds.

Firstly - problem is I seriously doubt some young males would travel at the same speed if they were in a 350Z compared to say a Camry - temptation would be too much for some people. Remember laws are always based on the lowest common demoninator.

Secondly - You claim the high powered rear wheel drives you listed are no harder to handle? ok then.....what does a p plater with zero experience do when the back end of that XR8 steps out?

[Gammaboy]

start dialing a towie?

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by merlin

Secondly - You claim the high powered rear wheel drives you listed are no harder to handle? ok then.....what does a p plater with zero experience do when the back end of that XR8 steps out?

Thats an easy one, they assume the position, grip the wheel, bury the brake pedal, eyes like dinner plates, and wait for the inevitable thud. : Seems for a few it'll take that first thud for the learning to actually begin.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Seems for a few it'll take that first thud for the learning to actually begin.

8 years ago being a passenger in the rear of a P plated VL turbo as it wrapped itself around a telegraph pole at 150km/h in a suburban street I can attest that the "first thud" does indeed change ones behaviour dramatically.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by merlin

Firstly - problem is I seriously doubt some young males would travel at the same speed if they were in a 350Z compared to say a Camry - temptation would be too much for some people. Remember laws are always based on the lowest common demoninator.

yea that is tru, temptation is a b!tch!

Originally Posted by merlin

Secondly - You claim the high powered rear wheel drives you listed are no harder to handle? ok then.....what does a p plater with zero experience do when the back end of that XR8 steps out?

Or when a corvette steps out with just touching the accelerator! those things have a hard time keeping traction at low speeds, you tap it she spins! and i would never let any young person drive on of those...unless they really knew how to handle a powerful car. and yes i personally have driven a corvette (one of the indy 500 special edition ones : )

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by merlin

8 years ago being a passenger in the rear of a P plated VL turbo as it wrapped itself around a telegraph pole at 150km/h in a suburban street I can attest that the "first thud" does indeed change ones behaviour dramatically.

Mate, thats the point I trying to get through to some of the wanna be Brocks, if your lucky its only paint pride and panel, but as i mentioned earlier I went to a few funerals in my P-Plate years.

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Mate, thats the point I trying to get through to some of the wanna be Brocks, if your lucky its only paint pride and panel, but as i mentioned earlier I went to a few funerals in my P-Plate years.

Wanna be brocks? Is it even possible for you to deal in facts rather than generalisations and stereotypes? You sound like a bloody labour poly trying to win upper-middle class votes.

Stupid people die earlier and in more amusing ways, maybe to really be safe we should just have an IQ cut-off point and put everyone below that in a padded cell.

Having known people that died in car accidents doesn't make you an authority on everything _ I knew a couple and been in more than my fair share of accidents. I don't think I'm a race car driver nor even a good one and no matter how careful you are sh!t happens.

Facts are what is important and one of these is that putting restrictions on the cars learners and P platers can drive just limits the experience that can be gained during their learning period. Driving a low powered, lightweight, front wheel drive, auto toy does not prepare you to drive a hi-po, heavy, rwd, manual but the fact is that is how the system works as it is now.

Restrictions in this form are not the answer and it's people like you that keep perpetuating these kind of 'solutions'. Stop swallowing whole the propaganda that's shovelled out and have a proper think about it. What would really save lives? Learning drivers are going to have accidents, so what should we do? Force them into cheap crap semi-safe cars just because they are under a certain power limit? Don't be so stupid.

That's it from me, I'm sick of the round-a-bout arguements and the total lack of willingness to look at the issue objectively (from both sides).

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Mate, thats the point I trying to get through to some of the wanna be Brocks, if your lucky its only paint pride and panel, but as i mentioned earlier I went to a few funerals in my P-Plate years.

so have I, and i think alot of ppl here know someone who has died at the wheel, it happens everyday, driving carefully or not. and i bet you don't stay under the speed limit all day everyday and that goes for everyone here as well its not just p platers that are dangerous many adults are as well!

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Having known people that died in car accidents doesn't make you an authority on everything _ I knew a couple and been in more than my fair share of accidents. I don't think I'm a race car driver nor even a good one and no matter how careful you are sh!t happens.

Try being careful, a lot of that excrement doesn't happen when you do. There are no prizes for being partially in the righ in an incident that could have been avoided. Its not the fault of the road the tyres, martians, the government or anyone else, lose control its the drivers fault!!

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Facts are what is important and one of these is that putting restrictions on the cars learners and P platers can drive just limits the experience that can be gained during their learning period. Driving a low powered, lightweight, front wheel drive, auto toy does not prepare you to drive a hi-po, heavy, rwd, manual but the fact is that is how the system works as it is now.

your not listening are you? Driving your mums laser will give you no experience whasoever of the behavior of a HiPo rwd. The whole concept is to allow inexperienced drivers to learn some road skills before taking on the bemoths. One problem at a time. The airforce doesn't let new pilots learn in an F16, amateur rodeo riders (at least the sober ones) wont climb onto the meanest bull in the paddock. With some experience on board you are much more able to safely handle a whole variety of vehicles on public roads.

Originally Posted by Fairmont99

Restrictions in this form are not the answer and it's people like you that keep perpetuating these kind of 'solutions'. Stop swallowing whole the propaganda that's shovelled out and have a proper think about it. What would really save lives? Learning drivers are going to have accidents, so what should we do? Force them into cheap crap semi-safe cars just because they are under a certain power limit? Don't be so stupid.

Dont accuse me of swallowing propaganda pal. If you actually read my posts you have noted I have stated thes laws are stupid an inneffection from the onset. They are typical NSW legislation that does nothing insurance companies dont do far mor effectively.

Originally Posted by merlin

Secondly - You claim the high powered rear wheel drives you listed are no harder to handle? ok then.....what does a p plater with zero experience do when the back end of that XR8 steps out?

They do the samething they would do when they lose their RWD 6 cylinder falcon/commodore. They banned P platers from performance cars not RWD cars. In some situations the base models are even worse because their handling is less predictable because of softer suspension and an open diff. The people that support these laws seem to think the P platers will now be driving some 4 cylinder, they won't they will be in marginally slower 6 cylinder RWD cars. Obviously RWD cars are more difficult for an inexperianced driver in some situations, however the NSW car restrictions do nothing to address this. Banning P platers from RWD or anything more than N/A 4cyl FWD until they did a driving course would have been a much better idea and might have actually accomplished something.