LPG versus Petrol. What's your view

[XplosiveR6]

got any specs for the EF/ELs on Gas steffo?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

got any specs for the EF/ELs on Gas steffo?

Nope, it wasn't a 'factory engine' until AUII, so I can't find any specs on any of them.

[gtfpv]

petrol 157 kw's lpg 147 kw's . cant remember the torque. el falcon

[OLDFORDNUT]

i have had several cars on lpg and when set up well they are much cheaper to run,i had a Holden V8 1tunner that was costing me roughly a tank a day on petrol in the eighties as i was a courier,installed lpg and used one tank roughly every 3 days petrol was $25-29 a tank from near empty and lpg was $17 from empty LPG 20cents per litre and petrol was about 47cents a litre, now this was with a holley 4barrell carb that was never the best ,
i also found big increase in power,so i think most equations are based on car having a perfect carby ,now we all know that on the street most carbs are not in perfect condition so going gas has other advantages in the average car,the big problem with duel fuel is the gaskets are quickly ruined when carb is dry for gas ,
i have never owned a dedicated gas car but im quite confident that the lpg would be an even bigger bonus as its tuned for just lpg no 50/50 state of tune.as a duel fuel car.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by MADXF

By 'untampered' I really only meant tampering with the excess flow valve and excess pressure valve.
I'd be interested to know the rest of the story about the car in your suburb. LPG tanks are not supposed to explode,even in a fire, so long as it is maintained properly with the appropriate checks every 10 years.

There was an explosion, the authorities inspected the vehicle & assessed it was a faulty pressure valve, the system was less than two years old.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i'm a licenced lpg fitter as well . and not in the business . lpg is safe if not safer than petrol . it has a higher octane rating . it is cleaner . less polluting . it's only downfall against petrol is that it is a slower burning fuel. hence requires more spark to explode . that is it . any one who is a high tech fuel engineer scientist will swear that lpg is a far far superior fuel over petrol . and in my experiance if correctly fitted and tuned the engine will run well and consistent for many years . lpg requires a differant optimum tune than petrol . but is 97% suited to a petrol tune which is acceptable.
its just a shame that politicians have to get there grubby hands on excises and taxes just to create an extra revenue at the cost of citizens. i hope this explains it plain and simple.

As a licenced fitter you'd be able to back me up on the official notice sent out notifying all licenced fitters to; watch out for the faulty unit & replace it.

[megsy]

OK sorry for hijacking the thread but..

say i wanted to convert my 4.0l MPFI EB falcon to gas what are my options and how much would it set me back??

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by johnydep

As a licenced fitter you'd be able to back me up on the official notice sent out notifying all licenced fitters to; watch out for the faulty unit & replace it.

i'm a fitter machinist therefore my licence is restricted to non registered vehicles only . like i stated not working in the industry . but have done a few of my own cars a few years ago when i was working in ageneral engineering shop that was licenced.

[XD-Machine]

Originally Posted by Pilch

The only thing I don't agree on is LPG becoming big in Australia. It won't happen because so many people believe the myths that surround the fuel.:voldar02:

i agree with him. like i over heard these guys say that LPG may be cheaper by the Liter but compared to petrol it ends up more expensive (km's per liter). now its because of miss informed ppl like them that i believe that gas is not popular plus not to mention the claims that you lose alot of horse power when using LPG. trust me if ppl new that in the long run they could save thousands of dollars off there fuel consumtion by switching to gas they would. plus like all things the more popular LPG gets the more expensive its going to get.

as i have said in other threads i am a LPG man and as soon as i can afford a gas covertion i will. Even though my own car doesnt have one my dad's, and bro's is on it and i have drivin them in both gas and petrol and there is minimal difference in performance but a hell of a difference at the gas station. also if you havnt realised petrol has went up 30 to 40% in recent years but gas has went up 10% mabey but the fuel hasnt changed. wots this tell you, well it tells you that even if gas went up another 20 to 30% you are still in compared to fuel not that bad off. atm basicly gas is way cheaper and will contiune to be cheaper even if the price goes up 20 or 30 % and petrol stays the same which buy the way is very unlikely.

At the end of the day you can either be a sucker (petrol consumer) or a winner (LPG consumer) and all i can do is inform ppl. As the saying goes you can lead a horse to water but you carnt make it drink

[XD-Machine]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

petrol 157 kw's lpg 147 kw's . cant remember the torque. el falcon

yeah does that realy mater around the street. and if so would you pay out for that little bit more of power?????

[Casper]

Well, since this thread asks for peoples personal views, heres mine.
I ran LPG on my XD many years ago. It was cheap (9c-15c a litre at the time) and served its purpose. I was not happy with the performance and the issues began to annoy me. It never started properly and sped up the death of the original engine. Apart from running costs it was not a great fuel.
I have now made the decision that, given a modern EFI car, I no longer choose to use LPG.

Just my opinion and my my reasons. Those that want to run it, great, however I am more interested in performance from my engine than economy so, for me, it is not an attractive option.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by MADXF

By 'untampered' I really only meant tampering with the excess flow valve and excess pressure valve.
I'd be interested to know the rest of the story about the car in your suburb. LPG tanks are not supposed to explode,even in a fire, so long as it is maintained properly with the appropriate checks every 10 years.

With enough heat and time, ANY pressurized containment vessel will rupture. Thats just physics. Shouldnt, Wouldnt, Couldnt is something to be argued from a safe distance from the burning car.

And its not as if every LPG installation is done perfectly, with 100% of the knowledge required and installed in a safe manner.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Casper

......

Just my opinion and my my reasons. Those that want to run it, great, however I am more interested in performance from my engine than economy so, for me, it is not an attractive option.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

This debate is really split in two; those that want to save a buck no matter what, & those that want performance with reliability.

Now befor I get flamed, listen up.

Yes LPG if correctly fitted, with a good quality system, which is maintained & serviced correctly is fabulous. If you are clocking up 20,000km a year or more there is a substantial saving.
But, there is a cost. Spark plugs do not last as long, air filters must be changed more often, engine oil & filter must be change at the recommended intervals (no oops, I'm only 2 months over).
All LPG fittings, pipes, connections, converter, mixer, tank, solenoids, etc must be inspected on a regular basis for leaks, wear &/or damage by a licenced fitter. How many people do that?
These are all added costs.

Now I'm not against LPG, I'm just annoyed at how some will jump on thier high horse & start calling people that prefer petrol powered vehicles sucker.

How many petrol tanks have exploded for no reason.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by johnydep

How many petrol tanks have exploded for no reason.

None that I know of (although they can explode too), but then, LPG bottles haven't either. Anything that happens in a motor vehicle happens for a reason, be it good or bad. In the rare case that they do 'explode', there's always a cause, a faulty part, leakage in an area that could have spark.. etc etc.

Although, your post is valid, not everyone will like/use LPG, nor do they have to. Same goes for every other fuel out there... petrol, diesel, methanol, ethanol, AVGAS etc etc...

[LeadFoot81]

I bought a dual fuel EF a few months ago, and it seems to me that LPG is great if you buy a car that has it already fitted (so you don't cop the cost of installation) and are able/willing to service the car yourself (lower servicing costs) and do high kays. The money I've saved in the last few months has outweighed the cost of different plugs/oil and even the cost of having the tank/sysetm inspected.
There are definitely more cons than pros to the LPG system, but if the system is installed and maintained properly, I can't see anything but a whole lot of money saved. I hate to do the usual 'gloating' thing, but: 0.41 vs 1.20...it's all good!

[gtfpv]

lpg tanks have a safety valve and an excess flow valve the . excess flow control valve is directly on the outlet to the service line which is copper . if this line were severed in an accident at the tank the lpg would rush out at 100psi for a second and then the excess flow spring would close off the rush to a minimum , so as not to be a flame throweer if a spark caused a fire at the same time it would burn like an oxy torch untill it ran out of fuel . now if the fuel line was not severed and the car was in a fire and there was a parked car next to it on petrol . and they were both in a fire the petrol tank would melt on the petrol car casing an explosion the car would burn to the groundthe lpg car would also burn to the ground , but before the tank ignites. the gas would boil in the tank the pressure would build up and then the safety valve would allow gas to escape like a flame thrower . by the time this happens the petrol car next to it would 've been dissintegrated and so would the gas car . so everyone would be ashes before the tank released the gas..

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

This debate is really split in two; those that want to save a buck no matter what, & those that want performance with reliability.

Now befor I get flamed, listen up.

Yes LPG if correctly fitted, with a good quality system, which is maintained & serviced correctly is fabulous. If you are clocking up 20,000km a year or more there is a substantial saving.
But, there is a cost. Spark plugs do not last as long, air filters must be changed more often, engine oil & filter must be change at the recommended intervals (no oops, I'm only 2 months over).
All LPG fittings, pipes, connections, converter, mixer, tank, solenoids, etc must be inspected on a regular basis for leaks, wear &/or damage by a licenced fitter. How many people do that?
These are all added costs.

Now I'm not against LPG, I'm just annoyed at how some will jump on thier high horse & start calling people that prefer petrol powered vehicles sucker.

How many petrol tanks have exploded for no reason.

Your points are both valid and reasonable but you can look at little further down the road too.
In my case and no doubt a few more people here ULP was not the answer to my performance requirements. And I am generalising to say that most people with performance in mind are wise to the fact regular servicing and tuning is paramount to longtivity of their ride, irrespective of the fuel they use...

A hi-performance install on a ULP car...
Injectors
High Pressure pump
Surge tank
Upgraded Regulator and fuel rail
Ported or modified throttle body
An ECU upgrade or piggy chip to make it all work...

Let’s be generous and say I could pick all that up and have it installed and tuned for $3500. The bottom line is $3500 later I now have a car that chances are will not pass emissions testing... That opens a whole new can of worms now doesn’t it?

I priced up a twin GRA set-up and have had it installed (although not tuned yet) for a touch over $2000... The adjustments are done with metering rods and screws, nothing fancy, and the car will pass emissions testing anywhere, anytime, meaning my car is always in a RWC...

To say you want performance and that is the only reason to stick to ULP is fine but if you start to exceed the limits of factory components an established LPG performance system might be a viable option.

[bindi]

And Johnny m'dear, how many LPG cars have you owned exactly?

Originally Posted by johnydep

This debate is really split in two; those that want to save a buck no matter what, & those that want performance with reliability.

Ok just what the hell are you talking about? I compromise the slightest amount of performance. I have both petrol and LPG on my EA and I can tell you now that it's not a big difference. And you CAN have performance with LPG (GRA setups, also there is the latest and greatest INJECTED LPG systems coming on the market now).

Originally Posted by johnydep

All LPG fittings, pipes, connections, converter, mixer, tank, solenoids, etc must be inspected on a regular basis for leaks, wear &/or damage by a licenced fitter. How many people do that?
These are all added costs.

Costs which I am quite happy to pay for the efficiency and GREENER GAS EMISSIONS. Ever thought about the environment in this debate? Cleaner fuel, cleaner emissions, the longer we are on this planet.

Also I get my car inspected at a specialised LPG mechanic every year, I have to by law at $10 more per pink slip registration inspection. And yet again, I am quite happy to pay for that. Anything suspect, it goes back to him asap.

Originally Posted by johnydep

Now I'm not against LPG, I'm just annoyed at how some will jump on thier high horse & start calling people that prefer petrol powered vehicles sucker.

Ummm no you're not a sucker, it's your choice. I'm just telling you how much I like MY decision and the reasons for it. It is in the original question after all.

Originally Posted by johnydep

How many petrol tanks have exploded for no reason.

Gtfpv is right, it is a safe system. Sure, there are the odd one or two that have exploded, but I too have heard of petrol exploding. It's more about static electricity than anything else. On impact, I can tell you that petrol will explode more than LPG. This is because of all the safety mechanisms involved in the gas lines and the tank itself is much harder to pierce than a petrol tank.

An old apprentice friend of mine was telling me he was at TAFE for LPG installation, & they watched a video where 2 identical cars (I think they were XFs!) were set alight - one was a straight petrol car and the other, a straight LPG car - and the PETROL ONE EXPLODED LONG BEFORE THE LPG ONE.

Anyway, as I said before, it all comes down to personal preference and we on LPG should NOT be vilified about our decisions.

BBQ fuel my ****! :evil_laug

[Racecraft]

To clear up a common myth or misconception here:-

A car on dual fuel will not have a noticeable difference in HP on the bum-o-meter when switching between fuels. It gives no credence to the performance capabilities of LPG because the exact car running only ULP with no LPG system (read:-restrictions associated with a mixer ring/plate set-up) will always run harder than its dual fuel counterpart.
That is not an opinion that is a fact...

[bindi]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

To clear up a common myth or misconception here:-

A car on dual fuel will not have a noticeable difference in HP on the bum-o-meter when switching between fuels. It gives no credence to the performance capabilities of LPG because the exact car running only ULP with no LPG system (read:-restrictions associated with a mixer ring/plate set-up) will always run harder than its dual fuel counterpart.
That is not an opinion that is a fact...

BUT! As I stated before, I talked to various LPG ppl about my options recently as I was going to go straight LPG. I was told not to bother as it would make no real difference because of the CFI setup. Although the guys in the LPG forums on here begged to differ, I tried four (count them, FOUR) different and totally unrelated LPG mechanics/specialists to discuss this with.

Originally Posted by bindi

In other words, the old carbie on my HZ benefitted from the full gas carby and the straight gas setup but there would be no real benefit for the EA as it has the two injectors, therefore you can't put a gas carby on there - well that's what this guy was saying.

So in the end, I stayed with a dual fuel system because although the guys on here were saying "go straight LPG!", the four mechanics told me not to bother and in a way, almost refused to do it as they reckoned there'd be no difference. Also I do have a different system (positively pressured) so that may be another factor, it's not as common as Impco etc.

So, where do I go now and what options do I have left oh wise ones?! lol

[Racecraft]

they were right to an extent, the configuration of the cfi manifold where the T/B sits verticle opposed to horizontal would make a conventional (GRA) LPG throttle body install alittle more expensive as you'd also need the 90 degree adapter plate.. Even then it might not clear the rocker cover and some custom fab work would be also needed. You could go to a BBm or EB/ED log manifold (more$$).

So the mechanics you took it too gave you the right advice, for what benefits you would get it wouldn't be justified by the bill they wrote for you upon completion. The difference of the opinions here are that a manifold change etc are no big deal, but to an LPG mechanic that hasn't done one before how does he charge the customer?

[Bluehoon]

Bindi,

i can vouch for the safety of LPG.

Had an oldpaddy basher, on LPG, one of the last bush fires to go though my area, burnt out the car.

It has half a tank of LPG in it.

We open the boot, and the tank was burnt, but un exploded.

This tank survived a very BIG bushfire......

LPG is safe.
LPG is cleaner.

Cost and wear and tear on engine - not going there.

BUT is you can get 400000 plus on LPG from a bashed up TAXI, what does that say????
:

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by Racecraft

To clear up a common myth or misconception here:-

A car on dual fuel will not have a noticeable difference in HP on the bum-o-meter when switching between fuels. It gives no credence to the performance capabilities of LPG because the exact car running only ULP with no LPG system (read:-restrictions associated with a mixer ring/plate set-up) will always run harder than its dual fuel counterpart.
That is not an opinion that is a fact...

I'll back that up 100%, and also add it works both ways. Changing from dual fuel to straight LPG will give significant performance gains also.

An example of this. My car simply won't (and I mean won't) rev beyond 3000rpm on petrol when setup for dual fuel, and therefore only makes around 140rwkw. On LPG, it will rev beyond 3300rpm but will lean out dangerously so it's never done, it makes the same level of power on LPG, 140rwkw at much the same point stage in the revs.

If I change the setup to one of straight petrol, the car revs freely to 5000rpm +++ and makes 164rwkw. It will be interesting to see what it produces when put on straight LPG when I purchase the appropriate setup.

Originally Posted by EF_Dave

got any specs for the EF/ELs on Gas

My parents owned two factory fitted (by tickford) dual fuel falcons, and still own one. One was a 98 XHII Panelvan manual the other a 98 AUI Forte wagon auto. There is absolutely no difference in performance between the choice of fuels driven on in those cars, and economy difference was less than 5%. Neither car have had an issue to date beyond blowing the cover on the air box off a few times, or needing a new set of leads. Beyond that they have received standard spaced service intervals from the local Ford dealer. Both cars have clocked up over 120,000 private km's and going strong!

The XH consistently achieves economy figures of 600km+ on a tank of LPG, which I believe is about 65L of filling capacity. On petrol it achieves the essentially the same economy figures. Both fuels on rare occasions have cracked 700km's a tank, but it is a rare occurence.

The best thing is that both cars have donut tanks fitted in the spare wheel well, and the spare wheel fitted in the back standing upright to the side, so rarely gets in the way, and is easily removable if necessary. In a sedan this would certainly be more annoying!

[johnydep]

OK for those asking, Ive personally owned two LPG vehicles;
1) Worked 5.0L/308, Chevy pistons, bored, block decked to suit pistons, blue printed fully ballanced, Yella Terra type L34 heads also worked, race bearings & all the other usuall stuff. This was a dual fuel set up & went like a rocket.
2) Four cylinder with mild rebuild for my wife. Also went well.

I had both vehicles for several years and sold the V8 to a mate which still has it today.

IMO the gas savings were great, performance loss on the V8 was negligible, but they did suffer from some problems. Which I can't be bothered explaining as it is impossible to express a view without gettng hammered.

For those that maintain the LPG system correctly, that is fantastic not many people do & enjoy your fuel cost savings.

For those that think it is impossibe for an LPG cylinder to explode, you are wrong. There have been numerous incidents, some through stupidity, some through lack of maintenance and some through faulty parts.
There was one case not long ago reported in the media, the driver filled up his LPG tank and when he got back into the car a rear passenger lit a cigerette, bang, 60% burns. Tank was leaking.

Again, I have nothing against LPG if it is maintained correctly and dealt with as a highly explosive substance.

[johnydep]

If you have a recent LPG system, read these letters & then have your system checked if you think it may affect you.

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by johnydep

For those that think it is impossibe for an LPG cylinder to explode, you are wrong.

So who would those people be that think it is impossible for a LPG cylinder to explode???

Yes it can happen, things can go wrong, and it can happen with Petrol and LPG tanks alike. I think the information contained in this thread shows LPG tanks are equally, if not safer than petrol tanks. What regular enforced actions are taken to inspect petrol tanks? None that I know of down here in Vic.

Hopefully anyone using the specified safety releif valve will get their system checked immediately!

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Pilch

So who would those people be that think it is impossible for a LPG cylinder to explode???

Yes it can happen, things can go wrong, and it can happen with Petrol and LPG tanks alike. I think the information contained in this thread shows LPG tanks are equally, if not safer than petrol tanks. What regular enforced actions are taken to inspect petrol tanks? None that I know of down here in Vic.

Hopefully anyone using the specified safety releif valve will get their system checked immediately!

The difference with petrol & LPG tank explosions is pressure; because LPG is stored in a liquid state under pressure, heat will cause it to expand at a very high rate, a faulty relief valve will stop the pressure from being expelled in a safe manner, the pressure will continue to increase until something gives.

A petrol tank is not subject to the same pressure problems that LPG causes, the only reason for a petrol tank to explode is an ignition source.

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The difference with petrol & LPG tank explosions is pressure; because LPG is stored in a liquid state under pressure, heat will cause it to expand at a very high rate, a faulty relief valve will stop the pressure from being expelled in a safe manner, the pressure will continue to increase until something gives.

A petrol tank is not subject to the same pressure problems that LPG causes, the only reason for a petrol tank to explode is an ignition source.

So don't you think that the chances of an explosion are probably much the same for both fuels. I mean, for an explosion to occur, something has to go seriously wrong! Be it a car accident, or a dodgy pressure relief valve, these are rare possibilities.

It seems that in summary of the danger of explosion in relation to tanks, LPG is more dangerous in the sense it can explode with no external cause beyond it's own faults, whereas in a car crash a petrol tank is far more likely to explode as it is more likely to be punctured and be exposed to air and potential for being ignited.

Can you conclusively say one is safer than the other? Both have their pro's and con's, once again.... the safest fuel in this regard is probably diesel as it is so slow to combust!

[johnydep]

OK this is my last reply to this thread, make of it what you will;

http://www.fireservicecollege.ac.uk/...le%20fires.PDF

The most likely explosion is likely to be a boiling liquid and expanding vapour
explosion (BLEVE) and may include some ‘rocketing’ or projection of the tank
itself. Such an event is likely to be the result of heating or direct flame
impingement, which raises the contents of the tank above critical temperature.
In this type of vehicle the risk of explosion poses a real risk to firefighters and
will require a strategic re-think of traditional car fir tactics.

As the evidence has shown the potential for certain items on a modern car to
explode is ever present but the bigger question remains. Do fuel tanks
explode? Yes…and…No. Yes under extreme circumstances it is possible for
the fire conditions to cause an explosion. No because both the motor industry
and the government would not allow such incidents to become a common
occurrence.
The true danger only occurs when you take a potentially dangerous piece of
machinery and place it in the hands of the most unpredictable species on the
planet. Human behaviour, as history as catalogued, cannot account for what
any persons actions may be, especially concerning their love of the motor
vehicle.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Pilch

So don't you think that the chances of an explosion are probably much the same for both fuels. I mean, for an explosion to occur, something has to go seriously wrong! Be it a car accident, or a dodgy pressure relief valve, these are rare possibilities.

It seems that in summary of the danger of explosion in relation to tanks, LPG is more dangerous in the sense it can explode with no external cause beyond it's own faults, whereas in a car crash a petrol tank is far more likely to explode as it is more likely to be punctured and be exposed to air and potential for being ignited.

Can you conclusively say one is safer than the other? Both have their pro's and con's, once again.... the safest fuel in this regard is probably diesel as it is so slow to combust!

Considering some of the monkeys that do LPG installs, things dont have to go too far wrong. Specially in a Dual Fuel setup where the LPG tank is directly above the petrol tank. Direct heat applied to the LPG Cylinder from a burning petrol tank will heat it quickly. If the relief valve opens as a result you are going to have a nice fire and a possible rocket if it is heated quickly enough. If it doesnt open at all and is faulty you will have a nice explosion.

In general Petrol tanks burn rather then explode when ruptured and ignited, this is because the vapours of petrol are much heavier than air and tend to fill the tank completely to the top. The vapour pressure of petrol is such that it tends to form a mixture with air in the tank that is above the explosive limit and can not be ignited.

In regards to LPG performance, as a fuel it has limitations(All fuels do, but noone wants to hear that), which is why we dont see it in any professional racing catagories. Fuel delivery velocity in traditional mixer setups when normally aspirated limits power thus requiring supercharging, but even then it has limits, which is why we see aviation fuel and other variants in racing, or in cases where supercharging is disallowed we see petrol variants because its easier to deliver fuel for more power.

Octane alone is not proof of superiority. As I have said before, neither petrol, nor LPG is superior to the other. One is a vapourized liquid, one is a gas. They both have different properties and achieve different things for different people who are looking for different things from their vehicles.

If you want a more worthwhile comparison, compare LPG and CNG for example. They both suffer from similar issues as they are gasses, but have differing properties.