RTA police cars??

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

WITH GATES OPEN, FFS

The Ute Muster is up the road from me and the gates are always open.

Will you concede the point and stop draggin it on. You are wrong - move on!

I don't know anything at all about the Qld drink driving case, and with out knowing anything, I bet he was driving on a public road when he was noticed by Police and was followed onto private land and arrested, and that is fine because the offence happened on a public road. Correct me if I am wrong

Im agreeing with you ****

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Im agreeing with you ****

The case of the Ute Muster is black and white, no gray about it

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Big Trev

The case of the Ute Muster is black and white, no gray about it

Move on ********......

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Move on ********......

so is that your admission that maybe you were wrong?

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by AMGC63

Yep, it becomes very grey when it needs to. Bottom line is don't think for one min because you're on private property that you have no obligation to comply with certain aspects of the road laws regarding driving of a vehicle.
People have been charged with reckless driving on private property (ute muster) and drink driving (Qld farm case) before. Both on private property.

And you missed what I said... the INTENT of the law is not designed to cover private property.

The UTE MUSTER is a PUBLC EVENT.
They are OPENLY inviting the public.
My back yard, front yard IS NOT A PUBLIC AREA.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

You read my post wrong too .

I said WITHIN 7 days. So what happens then?

Hypothetically I pull over, officer requests to inspect my car and I politely refuse. What happens? Does he then give me the option to bring the car to them within 7 days?

This reads as you MUST allow your car to be inspected and then you MUST present it for inspection within 7 days.

(5) A person who refuses or fails—
(a) to allow a motor vehicle or trailer to be inspected when required under this section;
or
(b) to produce a motor vehicle or trailer for inspection at the place specified in a notice within 7 days after service of the notice on that person—
is guilty of an offence.

Originally Posted by hawker

if pulled over and ask to see a warrant card,

Ask for a warrant card and they'd probably tell you to stop watching Pommy Police TV shows Just ask for ID.

Originally Posted by FgNewbie

ta Trev. "road related areas" gives me a headache. I've been given conflicting answers (from different authorities) about property I own.

Taronga Zoo IS a public area!

[Trevor 57]

Hey gas, many people don't understand how the read law correctly, what they need to do is read the first sentence (5), then read (a), then they need to read the first sentence (5) again, then read (b).

So it should be read like:

(5) A person who refuses or fails to allow a motor vehicle or trailer to be inspected when required under this section is guilty of an offence

or

(5) A person who refuses or fails to produce a motor vehicle or trailer for inspection at the place specified in a notice within 7 days after service of the notice on that person is guilty of an offence

to get the interpretation correct.

There is always a risk when post up law that people won't know how to read it correctly.

[GasoLane]

At least I have a good excuse Trev. I'm a Truckie, therefore I'm illiret... illitaret...alleteret.....I cant read!!

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

If the road rules extended to private land then why is farmers can drive unregistered farm machinery on their land?

How does a car yard keep unregistered/ unroadworthy vehicles in their lot without getting fines every single day of the week?

Or a wrecking yard which has a track on the premises?

You need to be a bit careful Jim in implying that all "Road Rules" don't apply on private land. Your very correct in your statement that Road Rules don't apply on private land, but a lot of things that the lay person would consider to be a "Road Rule" are actually contained within other supporting legislation and may in fact be enforceable in areas other than roads, including gated private property. In fact, in Victoria, the registering of vehicles for use on the road is in itself not a "Road Rule" as it's not contained within the Road Safety (Road Rules).

Using Victorian legislation as an example, look at the offence of "Improper use of a motor vehicle" (IE. Doing a burnout).
Linked here ==> http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/v...6125/s65a.html
Note that this is Section 65a of the RSA 1986, and is not contained within the Road Safety (Road Rules) 2009. However to the lay person, this would likely be thought of as a "Road Rule".

As linked, that offence clearly can apply on private land. It even goes into specific detail and circumstances where it doesn't apply on private land (Such as driver training, or during a function or event at a motor sport venue etc.). If the legislation wasn't enforceable on private land, there would be no need to do so.

Numerous other examples of offences, that could be deemed as "road rules", that apply on private land exist throughout the RSA in Victoria (including drink driving)..... I would assume the same is true in other states?

[Jim Goose]

[As linked, that offence clearly can apply on private land. It even goes into specific detail and circumstances where it doesn't apply on private land (Such as driver training, or during a function or event at a motor sport venue etc.). If the legislation wasn't enforceable on private land, there would be no need to do so.

No it doesnt CLEARLY link doing a burnout as being an offence on private land.
It is telling where you can do it legally in a PUBLIC place... totally different.

You cant do a burnout on a road or road related area... unless it meets the requirements set out in that legislation.

In QLD

TRANSPORT OPERATIONS (ROAD USE MANAGEMENT) ACT 1995 - SECT 3
3 Objectives

(1) The overall objectives of this Act are, consistent with the objectives of the Transport Planning and Coordination Act 1994, to—

(a) provide for the effective and efficient management of road use in the State; and

(b) provide a scheme for managing the use of the State's roads that will—

(i) promote the effective and efficient movement of people, goods and services; and

(ii) contribute to the strategic management of road infrastructure in ways consistent with the Transport Infrastructure Act 1994; and

(iii) improve road safety and the environmental impact of road use in ways that contribute to overall transport effectiveness and efficiency; and

(iv) support a reasonable level of community access and mobility in support of government social justice objectives; and

(c) provide for the effective and efficient management of vehicle use in a public place.

(2) This Act establishes a scheme to allow—

(a) identification of vehicles, drivers and road users; and

(b) establishment of performance standards for vehicles, drivers and road users; and

(c) establishment of rules for on-road behaviour; and

(d) monitoring of compliance with this Act, including by using alternative compliance schemes; and

(e) management of non-performing vehicles, drivers and road users; and

(f) control of access to the road network, or parts of the road network, for vehicles, drivers and road users; and

(g) management of traffic to enhance safety and transport efficiency.

This is the act which covers drink driving offences... clearly NO LINK to private property.
Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 below sets out where its applicable..

Part 2 Scope, effect, and
administration of regulations
5 Application of regulation to drivers, pedestrians and
vehicles
Unless otherwise stated this regulation in so far as it applies to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles shall apply to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles upon roads.

It sets out later in the act Offences Delt with under the act.....

Again, understand the INTENT of the acts... They are intended for drivers of vehicles and animals (horses) on roads and road related areas.

Police cant even breath test you (in some states) while your on private land even after they see you drive home and under what circumstances can Police legally enter your property to see if your drunk sitting in your car in the back yard?

[Dave3911]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

No it doesnt CLEARLY link doing a burnout as being an offence on private land.
It is telling where you can do it legally in a PUBLIC place... totally different.

You cant do a burnout on a road or road related area... unless it meets the requirements set out in that legislation.

Um..... no. Nowhere in that legislation I linked does it mention a road, or public or private land. It uses the term "highway" and directly references what circumstances a burnout can be performed on land "other than a highway" (IE. Private property that's not a road).

To direct link the legislation:
(1) A person must not drive a motor vehicle in a manner which causes the motor
vehicle to undergo loss of traction by one or more of the motor vehicle's
wheels.

Penalty: 5 penalty units.

(2) In a proceeding for an offence against subsection (1) it is a defence to
the charge for the accused to prove that he or she had not intentionally
caused the alleged loss of traction.

(2A) Subsection (1) does not apply to a person who drives a motor vehicle in
the manner described in subsection (1) on land other than a highway in the
course of-

(rest not posted due to length)


It's all very clear, (1) sets out the offence, with no requirement for it to occur ANYWHERE, just that it is an offence for it to occur and (2A) lists where that offence does not apply when it occurs on land other than a highway. Unless you meet the requirements of (2A) on land other than a highway, you commit an offence. Because there are no exemptions granted, it is always an offence on a "highway" and can be an offence on "land other than a highway" if conditions of (2A) are not met. If, as you say, it wasn't an offence on private land EVER there would be no need to have (2A) at all.

In QLD

TRANSPORT OPERATIONS (ROAD USE MANAGEMENT) ACT 1995 - SECT 3
3 Objectives

Just because it doesn't make it clear that offences can apply to areas other than roads in the the objective of the act doesn't mean it can't happen, where the act applies will be contained within it's scope. Which you have also posted:

This is the act which covers drink driving offences... clearly NO LINK to private property.
Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 below sets out where its applicable..

Part 2 Scope, effect, and
administration of regulations
5 Application of regulation to drivers, pedestrians and
vehicles
Unless otherwise stated this regulation in so far as it applies to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles shall apply to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles upon roads.

You bolded the "upon roads" section..... but you didn't bold he "Unless otherwise stated" bit..... selective reading? They've given themselves an out in the scope of the legislation, meaning that if they want to they can make offences apply to places other than roads. In fact, the offence of drink driving in QLD is one of these times:

79 Vehicle offences involving liquor or other drugs
(1) Offence of driving etc. while under the influence
Any person who, while under the influence of liquor or a
drug—
(a) drives a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel; or
(b) attempts to put in motion a motor vehicle, tram, train or
vessel; or
(c) is in charge of a motor vehicle, tram, train or vessel;
is guilty of an offence and liable to a penalty not exceeding 28
penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 9
months.

That is your general offence for drink driving from your Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 ,under the same section. Section 79 it then says this:

(11) Application of subsections (1)–(2L)
Subsections (1) to (2L) apply in relation to any person—
(a) who is in charge of a motor vehicle on a road or
elsewhere; or
(b) who drives a motor vehicle on a road or elsewhere; or
(c) who on a road or elsewhere attempts to put a motor
vehicle in motion; or
(d) who drives or is in charge of or attempts to put in motion
a tram or train on a road or elsewhere; or
(e) who drives or is in charge of or attempts to put in motion
a vessel that is being used, or is apparently about to be
used, in navigation.

Take note all of the "or elsewhere's". Clearly applies elsewhere to roads. The Queensland police even make it clear on their website: http://www.police.qld.gov.au/program...inkDriving.htm

Q: What are the different blood alcohol levels allowed for different categories of drivers?
Sections 79, 79A and 80 under Part 3 of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 (TORUM) are the applicable sections in relation to your query. Section 79A defines the three alcohol limits. Section 79 (2A) creates an offence for a person under the age 25 who does not hold an open licence, if they exceed zero. Section 79 (2) creates an offence for a person if they exceed the general limit, i.e. equal or exceed .050. Section 79 (2B) & (2C) creates an offence when driving etc certain classes of vehicles with a blood/breath alcohol concentration greater than zero (trucks, buses, B-doubles). Section 79 (11) identifies where the offences apply to, i.e. road or elsewhere. Elsewhere can be a car park, private property or a mining site.



It's all very clear... but you seem to keep flogging this horse that it isn't. A quick phonecall I just made to a mate who just left the Queensland police also confirm this as true. He advises me he has charged numerous people for drink driving on private property and never had a problem getting a conviction.

Again, understand the INTENT of the acts... They are intended for drivers of vehicles and animals (horses) on roads and road related areas.

And where exactly does it say that? You've already posted the relevant legilsation scope, and it clearly says "Unless otherwise stated".

Police cant even breath test you (in some states) while your on private land even after they see you drive home and under what circumstances can Police legally enter your property to see if your drunk sitting in your car in the back yard?

This is a whole other kettle of fish and not something that I'm questioning. Enter and search laws get extremely complex. I'm not saying that you'll get caught 100% of the time, or that the cops can walk onto your property whenever they want. All I'm saying is that it is an offence, and it does happen.

[Jim Goose]

And i have another QLD copper who will tell you they cant charge you on private property... which isnt open to the public.

A Woolies carpark is essentially private land, but its an open invitation to the public to enter. The example given about the ute muster... it was a "public" event so hence the Police can charge you there.

So as an example, I have 100acres and decide to hold a rodeo.
I apply and get all the council permits etc.... I am now opening my property to the public... Anyone drink driving there can be charged.

Once the event is over and I resort back to being a private citizen whose property is no longer openly inviting people in, they cant do anything.

Similiar to a wedding reception at a farm, its a private function, not open to the public, cant do anything until those drink drivers reach the front gate.


A house with no front fence (like in the newer suburbs) where the footpath and your property dont have a defined border would be open to interpretation by anyone.

My backyard isnt....

The verge, footpath, median strip, parklands etc are all public areas.

And you can under the law ask Police to leave your private property if they have no cause to be there.

As for intent of the law.... ask a lawyer/ solictor what it means.
Another term widely used is "in the spirit of the legislation"...

The intent of the law was in the opening "scope" ie:

Part 2 Scope, effect, and
administration of regulations
5 Application of regulation to drivers, pedestrians and
vehicles
Unless otherwise stated this regulation in so far as it applies to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles shall apply to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles upon roads.

The Tittle is.. ROAD USE ACT.... Its not the "motor vehicle act".. which would mean it affects you when you drive a motor vehicle... but an act which affects you when your on a ROAD (as defined...)

[AMGC63]

JIM, give in, just take note!!!!!!


http://www.police.qld.gov.au/program...inkDriving.htm

Q: What are the different blood alcohol levels allowed for different categories of drivers?
Sections 79, 79A and 80 under Part 3 of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995 (TORUM) are the applicable sections in relation to your query. Section 79A defines the three alcohol limits. Section 79 (2A) creates an offence for a person under the age 25 who does not hold an open licence, if they exceed zero. Section 79 (2) creates an offence for a person if they exceed the general limit, i.e. equal or exceed .050. Section 79 (2B) & (2C) creates an offence when driving etc certain classes of vehicles with a blood/breath alcohol concentration greater than zero (trucks, buses, B-doubles). Section 79 (11) identifies where the offences apply to, i.e. road or elsewhere. Elsewhere can be a car park, private property or a mining site.

[SEZ213]

Isn't this about RTA police cars?

[AMGC63]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Isn't this about RTA police cars?

Which also covers jurisdiction of powers.. all part of the same topic..

[Dave3911]

Jim, I take it your choosing to ignore the entirety of my post, respond to nothing contained within it and then post the exact same thing again, ignoring what is staring you right in the face?

Again.... to quote you and your supplied quote of the scope of the Queensland Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act 1995:

Part 2 Scope, effect, and
administration of regulations
5 Application of regulation to drivers, pedestrians and
vehicles
Unless otherwise stated this regulation in so far as it applies to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles shall apply to
drivers and pedestrians and the use of vehicles upon roads.

Unless. Otherwise. Stated. See those three words?? Stop ignoring them.
Now go to that same act... Part 3... Section 79(11).... that is an example of "unless otherwise stated". They clearly state in that section that the offence of drink driving (Part 3 Section 79(1)) applies on a road or "elsewhere". As also linked and provided to you, the Queensland Police website references the same section of law and puts it into layman's terms giving examples of what "elsewhere" can be. Specifically stating, car parks, private property and mining sites.

Regardless of all this specificness in relation to QLD drink driving - my initial point I made still stands. You made a statement that "road rules" are only enforceable on a road.... I simply said that in various pieces of legislation all over this fine country, there are bits and pieces that are certainly enforceable off the road. Don't get me wrong, in the far majority of cases the statement is true.... but there are a whole heap of individual driving offences, that vary from state to state, that can be prosecuted if committed on private property.

You won't be able to convince me otherwise as not only do I see it day in day out with my job (I am a civilian Police dispatcher in Victoria) - but I have personally been involved in an incident (as a witness) where, at 16, a friend of mine rolled his paddock bomb whilst drunk - injuring his passenger. He was charged, went to court, was found guilty. I know, I was there. I saw it with my own eyes.

[2011G6E]

Saw two Transport Department vehicles today. One was a Falcon ute with canopy, plain white, with a narrow strip up each side and at the rear it said "Department Of Transport". The other was a BA Falcon wagon in the same "colour scheme".
The lights consisted of a small bar across the rear part of the roof...probably more visible from behind the car than in front...with a small set of purple flashers in the middle.
Now, if one of them was standing by the roadside with uniformed officers around doing some sort of testing and pulled me over, fine.
However, if I, or more importantly my wife, was in the middle of nowhere out here and some guy in an older model white car with some odd purple lights was flashing me to pull over, I wouldn't. I'd ring the local police number on the hands free, and ask if it's legit, as they usually know what's going on out here on thier patch pretty well. As I said, when the transport mob first asked for this power, even the police union came on TV telling people, especially women, not to stop for anyone trying to get them to pull over that wasn't in a clearly identifiable police car. Even an unmarked cop car is more identifiable than a transport department vehicle.

They're not police, as much as they'd like to think they are, and there's no love lost between them from what I've heard from coppers and ex-coppers here...

[Rodgy351]

Here is some NSW info. Check this link http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/ma...11+2005+cd+0+N

Some of the key points....

Division 2Directions to stop, move or leave vehicles or combinations

135 Application of Division


(cf model provisions, s 27)

(1) This Division applies to a vehicle or combination located:
(a) on any road, or

(b) in or on any public place, or

(c) in or on any premises occupied or owned by the Authority or by any other public authority, or

(d) in or on any premises where the officer is lawfully present after entry under Division 4.

(2) This Division applies to a vehicle or combination seen on any road.

(3) This Division applies to the driver of a vehicle or combination who is apparently in, on or in the vicinity of the vehicle or combination


140 Manner of giving directions under this Division


(cf model provisions, s 32)

(1) A direction under this Division may be given to a driver or other person orally or by means of a sign or signal (electronic or otherwise), or in any other manner.

(2) A direction under this Division may be given to an operator orally or by telephone, facsimile, electronic mail or radio, or in any other manner.

This is all from the road Transport General Act 2005. (This is not heavy vehicle specific....)

Pay careful attention to this for the bush lawyer....(1) A direction under this Division may be given to a driver or other person orally or by means of a sign or signal (electronic or otherwise), or in any other manner.

Have you ever noticed the RTA cars have a message board and they use the words "Stop RTA"? have you ever seen them on the side of the road with a wooden paddle with the words "Stop RTA" I think anyone can see that these methods would be lawful directions..... Maybe a blind man could claim he didn't see the direction... (Probably would have crashed first) Have you seen that the RTA checking stations have signs electronic and other giving certain drivers a direction? seems lawful..... Doesn't seem to matter at all about light colour for the RTA.

As for inspecting vehicles... the RTA can lob on your doorstep and inspect your vehicle. It can also give you a direction to produce your vehicle at a time and place for inspection (Read the legistlation) Other than just relevant fines....Who holds the registration to your vehicle? Who can cancell or suspend the registration? seems like a viscious circle if you dont attend as required.....

Oh for those reading the legislation penalty units are about $120 each... 60 units do the math....do you want to hand over that sort of money?

Ask any trained Authorised officer to produce ID and I bet they will have a card with all the required authority.