Goodbye Holden Commodore?

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Its the best thing to come out of australia as well.

I take it your talking of Holdens PR folks / marketing dept. and not the car itself. :

[burnz]

Originally Posted by prydey

there are a touch over 60 models on sale in australia and the falcon is in the top 10, so is selling more than many other cars.

how about others realise that their 'real world' isn't the same for everyone else.

this thread is about commodore's future, which looks as bleak as falcon. not sure why falcon needs to be singled out all the time.

yeah thats 60 brands, 485 models

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by fte50

Using Falcon as an example - world renowned i6, VERY EFFICIENT relevant to capacity - size - weight, class leading performance, world renowned auto, excellent active & passive safety, superb comfort etc etc.

I agree with all the points that you've raised, especially those about the inline six.
However:

Originally Posted by fte50

excellent IRS

Are you sure? As an AU TE owner, why do you say this? I'd much rather have the Watts link, let alone the AU IRS. In my opinion, it's the most important area where the Falcon can be improved upon.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by fte50

I take it your talking of Holdens PR folks / marketing dept. and not the car itself. :

Can't argue with you there. The Holden marketing team could sell any car this side of an Epica.

[Ford Falcon XR6]

I presonally don't see the big deal about having IRS it adds a lot of weight and the benfits aren't that great. Its more the spring and shocks you put under it the effect ride quailty and handling. That's just my opinion but...........

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

I presonally don't see the big deal about having IRS it adds a lot of weight and the benfits aren't that great. Its more the spring and shocks you put under it the effect ride quailty and handling. That's just my opinion but...........

The purpose of IRS is to improve ride quality (as well as make the car more marketable, which is why Holden persisted with the primitive swing arm IRS for so long, and why Control Blade POS is standard). I certainly don't mind having it there, but I'd prefer if the system at least delivered handling as good as the live axle that it replaced. I'd also be happy if the system didn't fail at every opportunity. It seems like the diff bushes in a car with Control Blade IRS fail as soon as someone so much as sneezes in the car; the system is unsuited to rear wheel drive applications, and I really wish Ford gave us the option of the Watts link in the Falcon! I'd be willing to pay extra for AU rear suspension (be it the AU IRS or live axle) on a Falcon sedan.

Edit: Your car is awesome. I miss the AU days, when Ford of Australia put some real effort into everything they designed and produced.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

I agree with all the points that you've raised, especially those about the inline six.
However:

Are you sure? As an AU TE owner, why do you say this? I'd much rather have the Watts link, let alone the AU IRS. In my opinion, it's the most important area where the Falcon can be improved upon.

The Watts link is very very good, also 1 of my picks - lightweight and alot easier to service but comes NOWHERE near the AU Double Wishbone IRS.
This is by far without doubt, THE BEST underpinned rear end in any falcon fullstop. Drive one and you will know....its all in the drive.

The mention of IRS though was for comparing our offerings vs imports

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ford Falcon XR6

I presonally don't see the big deal about having IRS it adds a lot of weight and the benfits aren't that great. Its more the spring and shocks you put under it the effect ride quailty and handling. That's just my opinion but...........

Ford is on record as saying that Control Blade IRS has no weight penalty compared to Solid Rear Axle suspension.
The weight gain from AU to BA came from strengthening the shell.

[4.0i OHC]

Originally Posted by fte50

The Watts link is very very good, also 1 of my picks - lightweight and alot easier to service but comes NOWHERE near the AU Double Wishbone IRS.
This is by far without doubt, THE BEST underpinned rear end in any falcon fullstop. Drive one and you will know....its all in the drive.

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I stated that I am no fan of Control Blade IRS, and that I far prefer the Watts link, and I find the AU IRS to be an even better system. I have driven one, and I've had extensive experience in an AU with a Watts link (and Ticky suspension). The Watts link was great, but the AU IRS was magical.

My point was that Control Blade leaves me cold, especially compared to both AU suspension systems. I was wondering how you felt that they compared.

Edit: I'd just noticed the amendment to your post. IMO it depends on which import.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

My point was not about platforms. It was about singular models. The VE is unprecedented in terms of the time it's been around for an Australian car.

Why do you think this was the case - only coz GM werent getting enuff return on their investment outlay...$1Billion baby

[fte50]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I stated that I am no fan of Control Blade IRS, and that I far prefer the Watts link, and I find the AU IRS to be an even better system. I have driven one, and I've had extensive experience in an AU with a Watts link (and Ticky suspension). The Watts link was great, but the AU IRS was magical.

My point was that Control Blade leaves me cold, especially compared to both AU suspension systems. I was wondering how you felt that they compared.

Edit: I'd just noticed the amendment to your post. IMO it depends on which import.

Stupid to say but id almost prefer leaf springs then control blade - atleast theres less weight.

[svo supporter]

IRS means each individual wheel at the rear works independantly over bumps. A fixed rear, be it leaf sprung, or coil sprung works together, rather than seperately. So it tends to be a little harsher over rougher roads.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by fte50

Park assist ....If you cant park you simply shouldnt be driving
Adaptive cruise control....... A benefit though not a car choice decider / deal maker breaker
Blind Spot info system.....If the design was good there would be no blind spot

A bit blingy but useful -

Massaging seats.......another weight adding gimmick - then the critics complain of fuel efficiency, but a space saver spare is acceptable ??
rain sensing wipers.....In my experience these are pathetic - i switch to manual override in the Renault Laguna
Intelligent access......Yet to own a car that boosts my IQ

You can diss it all you want, but these sorts of things distinguish one from another. Lets say all the above features where available in the FG, would it sway the average punter towards the Falcon?

I'd also argue most of your replies from a non car enthusiast point of view -

Park Assist - This may appeal to females, especially if they have to drive large cars, not all drivers are car nuts like us and want it easy.

Adaptive CC - In itself it MAY not be a deal decider, but together with other features i'd almost guarantee it was. It's also a worthwhile active safety feature, similar to ABS.

Blind Spot system - Fact is, in this world nothing perfect and removing blind spots isn't always as easy as it seems. Therefore his feature is yet another safety feature, just like a LH rear view mirror.

Massaging seats - I can see this being handy on long distance drives, could be appealing to fleets?

Rain sensing wipers - a mate has a new Hyundai Elantra with this, he loves it, therefore i'd suggest we are all giving our personal opinions.

Intelligent access - your reply to this didn't do much for your argument. Still its a bit ****y, but I can see it would be handy for someone returning to the car with kids/shopping etc as they don't have to dig out the car keys.


Sure many of these features are for convenience and you can do without, but same applies to many options on cars that are now the norm -

left had rear view mirrors
manual tune vs push button radio
single cd player vs stacker
Intermittent wipers
Climate control
Trip computers
Power steering
etc
and the big one -
auto transmission vs manual transmission, i'm fairly sure many people on this forum drive autos. Autos are chosen as a convenience item generally.

Point is, going global allows FOA to introduce these features economically. In the 70's, the Japanese cars came out with gimmicks/features etc which eventually forced the big 3 to introduce them. Now its the Korean cars doing it, Ford/Holden will have no choice but to lift the features to what the world is offering.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by fte50

Why do you think this was the case - only coz GM werent getting enuff return on their investment outlay...$1Billion baby

Exactly my point!

[Djrystofer]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I had to actually Google "Belmont". Google seems to think it's an old Holden Kingswood type deal? I'll assume by your comment, that you think the current Commodore/Falcon cars have high equipment levels? You pay $85k for the top of the line FPV GT-P and get no Xenon headlights, no rain sensing wipers, no dusk sensing headlamps - things that aren't necessary, but things you get all the same in cars half the price. The reason I bring it up is to support my argument of "equipment levels".

You pay 85k for a 335kw rwd 4 door sedan.
Name another car of that price, with those things.

If you're buying a GT-P for pure luxury, maybe you should rethink your purchase.

[whales]

Originally Posted by davway

it isnt hard to glue a Commodore badge to a Cruze and call it a Commodore.
They glued Holden badges to Daewoos and suckers still bought them thinking they were Holdens.

Exactly!!

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Djrystofer

You pay 85k for a 335kw rwd 4 door sedan.
Name another car of that price, with those things.

If you're buying a GT-P for pure luxury, maybe you should rethink your purchase.

If anyone thinks Merc or BWM dont have problems, they are DREAMING!!

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Kieron

You can diss it all you want, but these sorts of things distinguish one from another. Lets say all the above features where available in the FG, would it sway the average punter towards the Falcon?

I'd also argue most of your replies from a non car enthusiast point of view -

Park Assist - This may appeal to females, especially if they have to drive large cars, not all drivers are car nuts like us and want it easy.

if you can't park without this feature, you shouldn't hold a drivers licence

Adaptive CC - In itself it MAY not be a deal decider, but together with other features i'd almost guarantee it was. It's also a worthwhile active safety feature, similar to ABS.

Geez, got me buggered how us older people managed before this marvellous invention

Blind Spot system - Fact is, in this world nothing perfect and removing blind spots isn't always as easy as it seems. Therefore his feature is yet another safety feature, just like a LH rear view mirror.

First driving lesson incorporates learning how to check your blind spot

Massaging seats - I can see this being handy on long distance drives, could be appealing to fleets?

Load of crock. If anything, it'd make you too relaxed, therefore causing you to drift off to la la land, doing 100 KPH

Rain sensing wipers - a mate has a new Hyundai Elantra with this, he loves it, therefore i'd suggest we are all giving our personal opinions.

Isn't that why you have eyes?

Intelligent access - your reply to this didn't do much for your argument. Still its a bit ****y, but I can see it would be handy for someone returning to the car with kids/shopping etc as they don't have to dig out the car keys.

What used to happen before this invention? get a stranger to open your doors up for you

Sure many of these features are for convenience and you can do without, but same applies to many options on cars that are now the norm -

left had rear view mirrors Still driving cars without this option...Yet to prang it
manual tune vs push button radio Or radio delete
single cd player vs stacker Nothing wrong with changing them manually. Keeps the mind active
Intermittent wipers That's what your eye site is for
Climate control Called 2, 4 or 6 windows
Trip computers No wonder people are useless with maths these days
Power steering etc
and the big one -
auto transmission vs manual transmission, i'm fairly sure many people on this forum drive autos. Autos are chosen as a convenience item generally. Got both, so depending on my mood, depends which transmissioned car I drive. Eather way, I don't care, nor does the misses

Point is, going global allows FOA to introduce these features economically. In the 70's, the Japanese cars came out with gimmicks/features etc which eventually forced the big 3 to introduce them. Now its the Korean cars doing it, Ford/Holden will have no choice but to lift the features to what the world is offering.

All these features you've suggested are pure **** features, which promote lazyness. No wonder there are so many useless drivers on our roads these days.....Need all these fancy gadgets to think and do the work for you, instead of using your own brain, eyes and ears to do the work.....Pity if any of these gadgets stuff up at the most inconvenient time...People would be stuffed

[Nic85]

I guess those gadgets are so useless that the highest selling car in Australia must not have them. Oh wait, IT DOES.

Get past your own egos for a second, and look at what's selling in this country, what those cars have as standard equipment, then understand why they're important in a car. Anything outside those parameters is useless hyperbole.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

All these features you've suggested are pure **** features, which promote lazyness. No wonder there are so many useless drivers on our roads these days.....

These gatdets for the most part aren't available to most people so don't blame them for making people lazy.

Need all these fancy gadgets to think and do the work for you, instead of using your own brain, eyes and ears to do the work.....Pity if any of these gadgets stuff up at the most inconvenient time...People would be stuffed

Any driver assistance initiatives that improves poor driving have to be a positive,
a device that can help the useless park ten times quicker and get out of my way gets my vote.

Bad, lazy drivers are already out there, either make driving tests harder or help them with gadgets.

[Nikked]

Useless gadgets sell cars!


just look at all the adds, they talk about Park assist, Voice control etc...


Remember the fuss Ford made about the Territory having so many storage compartments? Or GM inventing the cup holder?


Standard features are a big selling point, its what salesmen talk about, and what buyers think about in a cost/value decision.

People ask why large cars a facing falling sales, ands that's why. Small-medium cars offer more of this gadget stuff, and offer enough space for most needs.

Its not rocket surgery.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

All these features you've suggested are pure **** features, which promote lazyness. No wonder there are so many useless drivers on our roads these days.....Need all these fancy gadgets to think and do the work for you, instead of using your own brain, eyes and ears to do the work.....Pity if any of these gadgets stuff up at the most inconvenient time...People would be stuffed

you got that right, in my day it was a **** to have a radio in the car!! dam option's.
what; people were to lazy to drive down to the T.A.B to find out who won?

and why the option for disk brakes? drum's were perfectly adequate.
and to top it off for the lazy people, they made them power assist the cheeky buggers.
and now lazyness is so bad people have power steering and cruise control!! "what the accelerator peddle too heavy now" wimps

and this bluetooth crap; what 300 songs from ya phone, fossil FM has a wider selection.

[Kieron]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

All these features you've suggested are pure **** features, which promote lazyness. No wonder there are so many useless drivers on our roads these days.....Need all these fancy gadgets to think and do the work for you, instead of using your own brain, eyes and ears to do the work.....Pity if any of these gadgets stuff up at the most inconvenient time...People would be stuffed

You drive an auto which was once **** and promotes lazyness.

do you turn the A/C on? that was once ****.

single cd vs stacker, do you think changing a CD whilst driving isn't a potential hazard?

Ahh, I couldn't be bothered. The real point is what I have said multiple times. FoA have to compete in this market, other manufacturers WILL bring these features out, some will just die (HUD, 4WS for instance) and other will float, therefore FoA have no choice but to introduce them.

If they continue as per now, then they are reactive in many cases. IF they are able to tap into Ford's exisitng model range, ie Taurus badged as Falcon, they will be closer to being the innovators in our piddly little market, therefore be in a stronger position.

[fte50]

kieron, i do get wht ur saying, but you gotta decide what you want from a car - others offer gadgets packed into a smaller car/capacity whilst others offer large size / capacity to suit a different kind of buyer.
Now assuming the potential consumer is chasing a family type (large car) i really dont see them forgoing falcon for say a Lancer coz it has rain sensing wipers.
The majority of the decision is based on size, capacity, styling & color - what its packaged with or without is more of a secondary concern for better or worse.
As i stated earlier though, the new generation seem to distinguish excellence on the basis of what has more gadgets, as opposed to the engineering feats of the core design itself.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Kieron

You drive an auto which was once **** and promotes lazyness. Yeah, I'm a bit of a **** driving an auto. But in my defence, my work vehicle is a manual...Does that win some brownie points back

do you turn the A/C on? that was once ****. Nope...I wind my windows down. A/C doesn't exist in my cars...I've actually removed it from 2 of them, because I didn't want it (I have 4 on the road)....The work vehicle A/C doesn't work either and I don't want it fixed..... The windows work fine

single cd vs stacker, do you think changing a CD whilst driving isn't a potential hazard? Did I say I do it whilst driving? Nope. That's what the radio is there for. No need to change discs. When I'm going on a length trip, the misses changes them....Keeps her occupied


.

Now you can say I'm an old fuddy duddy not wanting all these ****y features in a car

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by jpd80

These gatdets for the most part aren't available to most people so don't blame them for making people lazy.

Having them promotes it

Any driver assistance initiatives that improves poor driving have to be a positive,
a device that can help the useless park ten times quicker and get out of my way gets my vote.

You're definately Russian
Bad, lazy drivers are already out there, either make driving tests harder or help them with gadgets.

Still won't improve their driving...

Bad drivers will always be bad drivers unless they're willing to change their ways. No gadget will change that

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Bad drivers will always be bad drivers unless they're willing to change their ways. No gadget will change that

so very true!!! I'm more concerened with wether my temperature gauge works properly then have reverse sensors etc. I use my mirrors.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Bad drivers will always be bad drivers unless they're willing to change their ways. No gadget will change that

My attention is on the things we can change, not the things we can't and as the victim of many car park smash and runs,
it's our cars that end up in the shop for three weeks after a hit, anything that reduces that chance gets a tick.

Parking sensors, park assist, blind spot warning... if any of these stop a wacker running into me, I'm for it.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by jpd80

My attention is on the things we can change, not the things we can't and as the victim of many car park smash and runs,
it's our cars that end up in the shop for three weeks after a hit, anything that reduces that chance gets a tick.

Parking sensors, park assist, blind spot warning... if any of these stop a wacker running into me, I'm for it.

I know where you're coming from and I've been there as well.


At the end of the day, these gadgets can and will fail, so relying heavily on them will create a false sense of security. Example. I have reverse sensors in my work van, with a gadget that judges distance to the object mounted on the steering column. This didn't prevent me hitting a trailer draw bar and wrecking a door on the van. (The draw bar was above the sensors, so it didn't register). And yes, it was my fault for relying on this stupid gadget and no you couldn't judge the distance by sticking your head out the door.

Nothing will prevent an idiot being an idiot behind the wheel.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by fte50

kieron, i do get wht ur saying, but you gotta decide what you want from a car - others offer gadgets packed into a smaller car/capacity whilst others offer large size / capacity to suit a different kind of buyer.
Now assuming the potential consumer is chasing a family type (large car) i really dont see them forgoing falcon for say a Lancer coz it has rain sensing wipers.
The majority of the decision is based on size, capacity, styling & color - what its packaged with or without is more of a secondary concern for better or worse.
As i stated earlier though, the new generation seem to distinguish excellence on the basis of what has more gadgets, as opposed to the engineering feats of the core design itself.

Maybe not. But they'll most likely forgo the Falcon for an SUV that has more gadgets, a diesel engine, and is more frugal.