air conditioner gas to go up 220% june 30th ?

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Wrong... the industry CANT EXPLAIN why the price has gone up...

You keep saying this, yet I'm never saying any facts to back it up.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

...and now a funeral parlour has been caught out lieing to people.

The cemetery incident was a receptionist.
The cemetery have gone on record to say that their prices are always revised on July 1.
My guess is that the receptionist was trying to be light hearted, and/or ditsy, in saying "even the dead can't escape the tax". She may even have genuinely thought that the carbon tax was the reason behind their price increase.



I think you said it best J.G.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Seriously people just lap it up and believe what they are fed.

[Windsor]

Gents.
I work for a large Refrigeration company and am involved with purchasing etc. The price i PAY for R134a refrigerant has increased by more than 300% - ( and we get very good prices / deals due to the amount we buy) - directly due to the carbon tax, we mark it up obviously but our large customers actually negotiate fixed mark ups with us so we wont be price gouging (never have). And in a referb. or a new Shop a system can hold hundreds of KG's. All the extra costs to our customers will be seen on the grocery bill.
Cheers Steve B.


Wrong... the industry CANT EXPLAIN why the price has gone up...

Seriously people just lap it up and believe what they are fed.

Is the refrigerant industry Australias BIGGEST polluter then?

Jim Goose - ... sorry to inform you mate but im not wrong, i did explain why the price has gone up- directly due to Carbon Tax .. above is fact ...several years ago the goverment introduced levies ($1.30 per KG) on refrigerants in an effort to reduce usage / encourage development of alternatives (one of these being hybrid systems using CO2), the Carbon Tax now applies to Refrigerants and is i said above as an example on R134a is FACT, no reason why i would lie .. i dont own the company ..i work for the company and this Carbon Tax introduced by this half witted government will have a direct effect on the employment of people where i work. Jim Goose .. when you get a moment Google House of Representatives Questions without notice Carbon pricing dated 23 May 2012 and read a question from Mr Truss (nationals) to Gillard - a direct Question that she could not answer. if you cant find it i can email it to you and you can post it up in this thread (i have no idea how to post it otherwise i would). Read it .. then re read what i stated mate ... we are regulated / dictated too by the large clients we provide services for ... they actually tell us the mark up we can apply to parts etc we sell to them. Sounds crazy but 100% fact mate.
Cheers Steve B.

[MAD]

Here ya go, found it. (her response doesn't surprise me one bit either)

Mr TRUSS (Wide Bay—Leader of The Nationals) (14:15): My question is to the Prime Minister. Is the Prime Minister aware that her $23 a tonne carbon tax will result in a tax of $75,000 a tonne on refrigerant gas, and that this will cost a large meatworks an extra $55,000 a year, and a supermarket $17,000 a year; and that the cost of servicing a home refrigerator will be an extra $300? Does the Prime Minister expect those extra costs to be passed on to consumers?


Ms GILLARD (Lalor—Prime Minister) (14:16): To the question by the Leader of the National Party, I would say that, as usual, what we are seeing is an attempt by the opposition to make wild claims and cause fear in the Australian community. We have seen it consistently with the claims about astronomical increases in the cost of living. We have seen it consistently with the Leader of the Opposition saying the coal industry would close. We have seen it consistently with the Leader of the Opposition saying Whyalla would be wiped off the map. We have seen it as the Leader of the Opposition has used working people as if they were props in a drama or a play that he was directing—standing next to a steelworker whose job he was not prepared to vote to support, or standing next to a car worker whose job he was not prepared to support. We have seen all of these tricks from the opposition as part of their fear campaign. To the opposition I say this: on 1 July we will see the truth, and the reckless claims of the opposition will crash to the ground at that time. The Leader of the Opposition will then have to explain to the Australian people why he spent month after month after month after month making such wildly inaccurate claims about carbon pricing, whilst doing absolutely no work on the policies that would make a difference to the nation's future.

Mr Truss: Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise on a point of order going to relevance. The question is about refrigerant gas and the Prime Minister has not even approached the subject.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will ask the Prime Minister to be relevant to the question before the chair.

Ms GILLARD: The point I was making was, like with the many other wild claims by the opposition, we will see the truth on the 1 July.

[Yellow_Festiva]

What a joke.... so typical... Saying all that dribble while in the end saying NOTHING...

Reminds me of the other guy who liked to impress people by using big words in his long-winded answers to even the most basic of questions...

What happened to him again????

[MAD]

EPA US reckon approximately 20% of all R134a, in equipment, leaks to the atmosphere each year.

That equates to the equivalent of 35,090,770 metric tons of carbon dioxide.


I think it's a good thing to try and push the developement of alternative refrigeration gases but, depending on the real impact, it maybe should have been phazed in for refrigeration gases.

Here's an interesting article on the developement of alternatives.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/newac2k.htm

[aualright]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

chambo please stop talking sence the good people of this forum dont wanna hear how its going to work and might actually be affective they wanna shout down the government and blame them for all lifes issues and problems the fact electricity and water prices will rise naturally and were actually to cheap to begin with is of little consequence they need someone to blame.

Electricity has gone up by plenty over the past 5 years and will continue to do so due our current infrastructure limitations in this area. Someone has to pay for new infra and it and its been reflected in my power bills for sometime, and increasingly so.

Carbon pricing on coal generating power companies will have an effect on power cost and hopefully it does in order to encourage alternative power solutions, including R&D.

Remember BOTH parties have a policy in this area. The so-called commies want to use the free market through an ETS, eventually. The so-called free market party wants to pay polluters to reduce carbon emissions - funded directly from the budget (your taxes).

If you don't believe that we need to reduce pollution by reducing carbon emissions, you have nobody to vote for. Got it?

****

[robbo/region15]

Carbon,Rego- Stamp duty ,gotta love a sunburnt country.........

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2011...ng-admin-28124

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Wrong... the industry CANT EXPLAIN why the price has gone up...

Seriously people just lap it up and believe what they are fed.

Is the refrigerant industry Australias BIGGEST polluter then?

Power has not gone up 300% yet coal fired stations pump out millions of tons of pollution... so explain how refrigerant companies pollute MORE ?

Are any of the refrigerant companies listed in the 300 top polluters?



Its not a TAX.... for gods sake... how hard is it?
Its a PERMIT TO POLLUTE which is paid by Australias biggest pollutors... of which there is 248 companies listed who actually pay for it.

If the company is NOT on the list... they dont pay it.

Sadly trying to debate/ discuss/ argue something on here is truely pointless when people dont understand how it works, dont want to listen, dont want to read whats being said.



Nevermind the fact that Brumbys was caught out.... and now a funeral parlour has been caught out lieing to people.

Lets just pretend that didnt happen.... and whinge about how the government has screwed us all... when infact blind freddy can see that the companies involved are the ones ripping us off.

And again.. for the record I dont support it.

Julia Gillard was asked to answer some questions on the Herald Sun website from the public. She answered one question by saying "its a fixed price for the first three years, effectively a tax, and then an emissions trading scheme".

So even the PM is saying its a tax. But you somehow say its not.

[Franco Cozzo]

Anyone know if the price of Hychil is going up by a metric crapload too?

Might be its time to shine if not.

[ratter]

hychill is not a good option for many late model cars

[bingoTE50]

Hychil and other derivatives unfortunately will be , and always will be crucified by the HVAC industry.I for one support their use. The beauty of these refrigerants is that you use approx 30% of the original charge and they have a lower condensing temperature than R134A.
There are replacements already for R134a being used in vehicles in the States.
I believe there is refrigerators in the country with R290 refrigerant ( propane) already.
R134a is not widely used in Commercial Refrigeration . R404 and R507 are the main refrigerants and attract less carbon tax than R134a. ( correct me if I am wrong)
Commercial Air Conditioning , particular chillers use quite a lot of R134A initially , but are very dependable as far as leaks go ,and most new installs require leak detection systems.R123 is also used but specifications for project works pretty much demand R134a and oil less compressors.( magnetic bearings -Turbocors)
Industrial Refrigeration ,such as very large cold storage ,abbatoirs,etc use ammonia. R717a.
Anyway probably bored you all now ...

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Julia Gillard was asked to answer some questions on the Herald Sun website from the public. She answered one question by saying "its a fixed price for the first three years, effectively a tax, and then an emissions trading scheme".

So even the PM is saying its a tax. But you somehow say its not.

Seriously... if you dont want to inform yourself why bother?

Its been said over and over... sadly even the ministers themselves are too stupid to call it what it is.

A few media commentators have also commented on it. the fact that the pollies themselves call it a tax. When it isnt.

And its palying right into the hands of the opposition and people like yourself who dont want to understand what its all about

Ill say it again.. ITS NOT A TAX... ITS A PERMIT TO POLLUTE.
The top 300 pollutors in the country pay $23 per ton of pollution.
NO ONE ELSE PAYS IT.

And again QUESTION why refrigerant gas has gone up 300%....
Are they the BIGGEST POLLUTER in the country?

People on here keep saying... "oh the reason why is because of the carbon tax.." really... so again why hasnt ELECTRICITY gone up 300%? as coal fired stations pollute a hell of a lot more then one or two refrigerant manufacturers in this country.

The mere fact i have shown articles related to Brumbies and a funeral parlour LIEING TO PEOPLE doesnt even register.. SO WHY BOTHER???

[pottery beige]

the sky is blue.. no its green.. the sky is blue.. no its green.. the sky is blue.. no its green.........

[graham7773]

I was just quoted $300 for gas plus $250 installation labour (putting the system in) to regas my split system house air con. WTFH! The system uses about 1 kg of refigerant gas. I know that's a rip-off!!! And another clown wanted to charge me $500 plus $300 for gas on top. Ned Kelly would be proud of these people ( scum) It is about 2 hours work, straight inside/outside installation in the same position on the wall. How do I know how long it takes? I know one of the people doing the work and I watched the people who did my daughters instal. In and out in 2 hours. Does anybody on FF actually know the price per kilo of refrigerant gas?

[BHDOGS]

What Jim is saying is nobody is paying tax there paying the increased costs to the buisness's who pay the carbon price the government isnt getting your money the company your buying from is

[BHDOGS]

And to further that the company's are Paying money for how much they pollute your environment you live in so I guess it's up to each individual what it's worth up until currently it was free

[MAD]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

And again QUESTION why refrigerant gas has gone up 300%....
Are they the BIGGEST POLLUTER in the country?

People on here keep saying... "oh the reason why is because of the carbon tax.." really... so again why hasnt ELECTRICITY gone up 300%? as coal fired stations pollute a hell of a lot more then one or two refrigerant manufacturers in this country.

It has been mentioned Jim, you must have missed it, or ignoring it so you can continue ranting.

Refrigeration gas, especially in mobile installations, is very prone to leaking so it is assumed to be a consumable. That is why it is attracting the carbon tax.
The reason the increase is so large is because of its Global Warming Potential. Each kilo of R134a is equivalent to around 1.3 tonnes of carbon dioxide.

So each kilo of refrigeration gas gets 1.3 x 23 added to it.

Here's another document explaining it some more. It's even from the industry.
http://www.heatcraft.com.au/webdav/s...xUpdate_LR.pdf

[BHDOGS]

This might help for people

example: 1kg of R134a equates to 1.300 metric tonnes of carbon. It's from the source you just quoted

Also this For example: R134a carbon price Jul ’12-Jun’13 equates to 1.300 x $23.00 = $29.90/kg.
The above pricing relates to the carbon element only and therefore does not take account of product price, financing costs or any other taxes or levies which may be applicable.

[BHDOGS]

So it's going up 30 dollars a kilo due to the carbon price according to that source?

[MAD]

Something like that, which is where the 220% increase, in the title, comes from.
It was mentioned earlier that it was priced at $25/kg. That plus 1.3 x $23 = $54.9 which is 219.6% of the cost. But not an increase of 220%, so maybe there's something else to it.

[BHDOGS]

Quite simple really when you put it into perspective

[MAD]

Another newsletter from the industry.
http://www.vasa.org.au/wp-content/up...e2012LoRes.pdf
It suggests some of the other possible causes of further increases to the price.

This is the June newsletter, it will be interesting to see the next one.

[bingoTE50]

Refrigerant 2012 / 13 2013 / 14 2014 / 15
R134a $29.90 $31.40 $33.02
R404A $74.98 $78.73 $82.80
R410A $39.68 $41.66 $43.82
R407C $35.09 $36.84 $38.75
R507 $75.90 $79.70 $83.82

This is the carbon tax component only for refrigerant , via Heatcraft.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ratter

hychill is not a good option for many late model cars

It can replace r134a too.

[bingoTE50]

The first price is the per/kg price of refrigerant only .The second price is with all fees and charges ,inc carbon I believe.


Heatcraft List Price Increase Schedule1
Refrigerant Type List Price - 13 June, 2012, $/kg List Price - 9 July, 2012, $/kg2
R23 748.80 1690.15
R134a 65.72 181.82
R404A 92.88 377.71
R507 111.38 384.69
R407C 97.87 213.10
R410A 90.58 227.91
R424A 153.40 308.71
R434A 153.40 370.08
R437A (Isceon MO49+) 124.22 251.52
R438A (Isceon MO99) 153.40 296.40
R22 108.36 170.83
R123 113.90 228.03
R408A 154.74 296.40
R409A 149.69 186.17
Notes:
1) Heatcraft Terms and Conditions of Sale and Hire apply to all purchases. Prices are exclusive of GST.
2) From July 9, 2012 Heatcraft Refrigerant prices will include all levies and charges (other than GST) in a single
line invoice price.

[MAD]

Hychill also has the benefit of being a heavier gas therefore less prone to leaking.
If it does leak, as per most a/c leaks, it is so gradual that the possibility of having a flammable air/fuel ratio would be very minimal I'd say.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

It can replace r134a too.

and many late model automotive compressors have a failure a short time after using it

[bingoTE50]

Originally Posted by graham7773

I was just quoted $300 for gas plus $250 installation labour (putting the system in) to regas my split system house air con. WTFH! The system uses about 1 kg of refigerant gas. I know that's a rip-off!!! And another clown wanted to charge me $500 plus $300 for gas on top. Ned Kelly would be proud of these people ( scum) It is about 2 hours work, straight inside/outside installation in the same position on the wall. How do I know how long it takes? I know one of the people doing the work and I watched the people who did my daughters instal. In and out in 2 hours. Does anybody on FF actually know the price per kilo of refrigerant gas?

Install Minimum price used to be @ $450 back to back up to 3.5kw and $550 up to a 6.5kw.
Depending where you are and what state . I know in regional areas people were paying $700 back to back . Add aprox $100 per meter other than back to back.

To recharge your system the following should happen .

Recover any refrigerant left in the system after leak checking . Fix source of leak , evacuate the system making sure it holds vacuum . Could take 3 hours on a split . Re-charge system and test functions .
You got quoted $550 ? Maybe a bit exxy . Would you pay that for a car service ?

[bingoTE50]

Originally Posted by ratter

and many late model automotive compressors have a failure a short time after using it

If the source of the leak is the shaft seal it will not matter what refrigerant you use. The only way to fix it is replace the seal and unfortunately you would be very hard pressed to find someone who will do it let alone someone stocking the seal.
In the eighties it was common place,in fact I used to stock them when I worked at Lovelocks/Heatcraft.

Throw away society now..

[XR_Strider_GuY]

OK just to feed my curiosity. Called a main stream Ford dealer here in Melbourne. For an air conditioning gas R134a recovery and recharge for a BA MKII Falcon assuming the system has nothing wrong is $240.00.

Service guy said its the gas that has gone up but labor stays the same.