ABS Breaking threshold

[donno]

ATM I'm really starting to get ****ed off with it. I learnt to drive in an XE on a dirt road, and think I could brake harder at times in that before ABS kicks in on the ED. I was really ticked off the other day in the city when a lady in the lane to the left of me decided to take a right turn across my lane, when I was around her C pillar. Naturally I hit the breaks, but was nowhere near where it would lock. ABS for some reason kicks in and the break pedal sinks to the floor. ABS then clicks off when I get under 10km/h, so with my brake pedal sitting on the floor, you know what happens next. Thankfully she saw me half way through the turn and managed to accelerate out. If she didn't it would have been a nice tbar.

It might sound stupid, but I've almost had enough and want to disable it. :

So, my question is does anybody know at what point ABS kicks in? Is it when it hits its breaking threshold (lockup) or a bit before? I can just feel in the car its got alot more braking potential there. Cheers.

[klawsterfobik]

AFAIK it kicks in when the wheels have stopped moving (ie started skidding), and then releases them til they lock up, and so on (in some cars up to 100 times a second)

If your feeling a slight *pop* under your foot, your not pushing hard enough, you really need to push right into the pedal, and learn where the best point for your car is.

Defensive Driving course... for less than the cost of your excess on your insurance its well worth it.

[OED666]

i used to have a similar problem... my abs would come in really easily...

when put my x drilled and slotted rotors on, i noticed the tone wheel on the front rotors were chockers full of , like dust and crap... since the new rotors have been on, i have to be very hard into them for the abs to come on... yes it still works...

[GTENVY]

i have the same problem with my EB. I fitted cross drilled/slotted DBA discs, new pads and brake fliud and does the same thing. I am upgrading my brake booster, master cylinder and abs module to an EF one. I took a stock EF XR8 for a test drive and it braked waaaaay better than the EB even with the disc upgrade.

I believe the ABS module in a EF is 4 channel where as in the EB/ED it is only 3 channel - can anyone clarify this ??????

Have a look at an EF onwards booster, they are way different to what you and I have.

once the conversion is done (amonst other things) I'll post on ff.au if its better. :

[ratter]

ABS or not, your pedal should not go to the floor, if it does you have problems.

The abs kicks in when a wheel stops turning.

If you are better than braking than the ABS system, you do not need to disconnect it to out brake it, just brake better than the system can pick up a locked wheel.

But different brake pads, different rotors, different tyres, different tyre pressures and different road surfaces all change at what point a wheel will lock up and cause the ABS to kick in.

[donno]

Ratter, don't get me wrong, I don't mean I could brake better then an abs system, an F1 driver couldn't, let alone myself only been driving on roads for just over 3 years. But for some reason it just seems there's alot more braking power in it then the ABS is letting on, i.e. there's either something in the system that's out of whack, and not doing its job properly, possibly what OED666 was refering too.

Oh sorry to, with the pedal going to the floor I was only figuratively speaking. It just drops away from your foot suddenly, not a feeling I like particually.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by donno

Ratter, don't get me wrong, I don't mean I could brake better then an abs system, an F1 driver couldn't, let alone myself only been driving on roads for just over 3 years. But for some reason it just seems there's alot more braking power in it then the ABS is letting on, i.e. there's either something in the system that's out of whack, and not doing its job properly, possibly what OED666 was refering too.

Oh sorry to, with the pedal going to the floor I was only figuratively speaking. It just drops away from your foot suddenly, not a feeling I like particually.

No worries

If the ABS is coming in way too early, there is a problem, whethers it's a ABS problem or a wheel locking problem you need to get to the bottom of it.

[Stevo]

did you scream swear words and grasp the wheel like you were going to die ?
i find that usually helps in breaking situations

[XR Martin]

I guarantee you I can break better with the ABS disconnected on my ED than with it connected.
In dirt you are actually better off locking the brakes as the wheels dig into the ground and slows you faster.

F1 is a bit different when they can spend tens of millions on the software, where Ford just got an off the shelf Bosch system.

[ratter]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

I guarantee you I can break better with the ABS disconnected on my ED than with it connected.
.

How?
The ABS releases the wheel once it's locked up to gain braking traction, if you can out brake the ABS you should be able to do it with the ABS connected as well.
The ABS only works once a wheel is locked, if your manually braking and lock a wheel, you have to get off the brakes and then re apply them, the ABS will do this a lot quicker than you or any other human could.

[InitialD]

Originally Posted by Stevo

did you scream swear words and grasp the wheel like you were going to die ?
i find that usually helps in breaking situations

Maybe I Should have done that lol

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by ratter

How?
The ABS releases the wheel once it's locked up to gain braking traction, if you can out brake the ABS you should be able to do it with the ABS connected as well.
The ABS only works once a wheel is locked, if your manually braking and lock a wheel, you have to get off the brakes and then re apply them, the ABS will do this a lot quicker than you or any other human could.

It not as simple as that, ABS is reliant on the software in the ECU, which on EB-ED Falcons was developed up to 15years ago. It basically comes on too early, it thinks the wheels are locked, but in reality there is still more available braking before it will actually lock.

Now a late model system, especially those of Merc or BMW which can individually control the braking on each wheel is a much better system.

[CruizinEB]

my ABS breaking threshold seems fine to me, it mite differ from year to year and use.

[donno]

Originally Posted by Stevo

did you scream swear words and grasp the wheel like you were going to die ?
i find that usually helps in breaking situations

Lol. There was alot fo that happening, but more so directed at the lady in the other car rather then my braking efforts.

Would yanking the ABS fuse disable it? Wouldn't mind finding a deserted road and seeing how much harder she'll go.

[Trevor 57]

There is a very common misconception out there, and that is "that ABS will stop you in a shorter distance".

Nothing is further from the truth, in fact, depending on the road surface ABS use can actually increase you stopping distance.

ABS allows your wheels to keep turning, a stopped wheel will not steer, ABS allows you the luxury of steering.

ABS also eliminates tyre flat spotting.

I would not recomend anybody disconnect ABS, coz if you are in a prang and the Insurance Co. checks out your, guess what? - NO INSURANCE!

[geckoGT]

I dispute the idea that a driver can not outbrake abs. For abs to work you have to lock at least one wheel (depending on the unit). With this thought in mind you have already lost the most effective braking. The unit will then lock and release the brake at a very high frequency. This situation is better than a locked wheel and allows steering through the obstacle but in terms of stopping distance an effective driver with good threshold braking technique will out brake it every time.
An example of this was when I was doing a driving course for work. We had an exercise where we had to steer an abs equipped unit through a wet hazard situation under abs. In my first 2 runs I used effective braking (threshold) and actually pulled up before the obstacle (not the idea of the exercise). My instructor said that although that was the best method of dealing with the situation, it was not the idea. I then had to do a further 2 runs where I was told to jam the brakes on to get lock, I did this and abs came in, allowing me to steer through the obstacle but the stopping distance was some 15m longer than threshold braking. I discussed this with my instructor and he agreed that a good driver will out brake your average abs unit, and that abs opertaing is a signal that you failed in your braking technique.
In my belief abs is an aid that will help you get through a bad situation, it should not be relied on (technology fails) and it is always better to avoid the situation in the first place.
On the subject of the thread, if the unit is coming into play without at least one wheel locking, there is certainly a problem. The question may be are you detecting the lock, the computer picks it up in a split second, before the tyres start squealing. I imagine it would also be illegal to remove a braking system or part of it from a car (guessing on that one)

[ratter]

A good driver can outbrake ABS for sure, but they can do it whether it's connected or disconnected.

NO human could detect a locked wheel then release the brake and reapply the brake quicker than the ABS unit can.

Once you have locked a wheel, there's no way you could outbrake the ABS.

[Way2go]

Non-ABS vehcles will stop in a shorter distance on loose surfaces (but obviously will not let you steer).

It has long been accepted that stopping on gravel, dirt, snow, etc. takes less distance when the wheels are locked up and allowed to accumulate matter in front of them. For this very reason, my ur-quattro turbo coupe came from the factory with an ABS on/off switch on the dash (fully legal).

Obviously for the 'joe bloggs' average driver on the road (hard surface), ABS allows them the ability to steer around an obstacle, though if you've never done an advanced or defensive driving course, the majority of people in such a situation grab the wheel tighter, keep the foot hard on the brakes, scream/close their eyes, and don't even think about steering!

[XR Martin]

Alot of people get off the brakes in ABS equipped cars when they feel the pedal vibrating...

[Street Sleeper]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Alot of people get off the brakes in ABS equipped cars when they feel the pedal vibrating...

As did I the first time I experienced it.
I try avoiding making the ABS come on because it feels unatural.

[CruizinEB]

Originally Posted by Street Sleeper

As did I the first time I experienced it.
I try avoiding making the ABS come on because it feels unatural.

it dose ha, once it felt like it was going up and down:(

[donno]

Originally Posted by Way2go

It has long been accepted that stopping on gravel, dirt, snow, etc. takes less distance when the wheels are locked up and allowed to accumulate matter in front of them.

Unfortunately doesn't work that way on the gravel roads I grew up driving on. The roadbase was hard, and the surface was strewn with rocks from the size of pebbles to about my fist. If you locked up on this stuff (and did so many times when I first started driving, dad wouldn't let me go over 40 until I didn't anymore), you'd just skid across the surface, and due to the hard roadbase not dig in at all, you could stop in 3/4 the distance when you didn't lock up. ABS is a different story though, its totally useless on that surface.

[donno]

Originally Posted by Street Sleeper

I try avoiding making the ABS come on because it feels unatural.

Same here. I can feel the car though the brake, and it gives me the craps when that source of feedback and control is taken out of my hands.