looking UHF/CB radio experts!

tickford2001 · 09-10-2006, 11:58 AM

just wondering if anyone has any knowledge on UHF/CB radios.

what i need to do is put together a system that can be used for car to pit crew and pit crew to car communication...and i need to do it on a tight budget! My experience with radios extends about as far as using the little hand held units on car cruises!

from what i can tell a unit with between 3 & 5 watts output should do the job, although I think we could probably get away with 1.5-2 watts, but this might get a bit sketchy at places like phillip island and bathurst, so ill probably just stick to a 5w unit.

i think to start with im looking for a a hand held unit for the car, and one or two for team manager and no.1 mechanic. They would need to be able to take a headset for crew, ear piece for driver, and both would need ptt.

can anyone tell me how does the mhz level come into the equation? or anyone have any advice at all about radios that might affect what i include in my setup?

of course, anything i use for this purpose will need to be legal... :Reverend:

dave

frost · 09-10-2006, 01:39 PM

Ok you have 3 opitions

AM, UHF and VHF

VHF we will get rid of that opition as it is costly.

AM - Reltivly cheap no one uses it, got fairly good range, but no good as no one really makes them

UHF - The ****. What you need is GME Radios for handhelds as they run 5w on hand held where your cheap uniden **** only runs .5-1w. This is a TX6xxx series (GMEs Handheld) are around $300 a pop.

Uniden are ****, you can get the hand helds and they have the ability to have a headset plugin like the GME

Your biggest disadvatnge is not having an aerial on the car. Some GME you can get a detachable aerial off the radio even ICOM

Depends how cheap you want to go is going to be quaility of communications

mhz, with any Citizen band you just gotta make sure your not interupting anyone elses channel 0-40

tickford2001 · 09-10-2006, 01:46 PM

thanks for that frosty, UHF sounds like the way to go...

I can have an aerial on the car too if that helps. i have noticed a couple of other teams that use the handhelds actually run an aerial on the car - is it possible to remove the standard aerial and run a line to one on the roof of the car or something like that?

frost · 09-10-2006, 02:18 PM

Yep depending on radio but thats possible, if you get an aerial dead smack in the middle of the roof, you increase your signal range due to it having alot of metal to reflect off.

Maybe have a chat to the other teams and see what they run?

richardxr8 · 09-10-2006, 05:19 PM

Is security an issue at all ? If you use UHF CB, its pretty damn open ! ie no security....
UHF frequencys are pretty much line of sight, so height is might !! (Aerial must go top of roof of car, and base antenna should be high as possible.
5W is absolute minimum - dont consider less...

wodahs · 09-10-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frost

UHF - The ****. What you need is GME Radios for handhelds as they run 5w on hand held where your cheap uniden **** only runs .5-1w. This is a TX6xxx series (GMEs Handheld) are around $300 a pop.

Uniden are ****, you can get the hand helds and they have the ability to have a headset plugin like the GME

Your biggest disadvatnge is not having an aerial on the car. Some GME you can get a detachable aerial off the radio even ICOM

ive had a better run with uniden than gme

you can get hard sets (perm mounted till you remout it) cheeper than handhelds and the got a perm power supply

my latest handheld is a uniden uh050xr has the functions to run head sets , changeable aerials and is 5 watt and payed under $250 , got it 5 to 6 weeks ago

and i run a few hard sets (uniden)

when you can spend a bit more down the track they can add a frequence (or do it now) that is yours alone (like a channel 41)

where ever you get them tell them how meny you want and want a discount

Green X · 09-10-2006, 07:46 PM

Mate. I have a Uniden in my 4WD it’s 4 years old now and it has given me 0 problems, The best range I have got out of it is around 30km in open country running a 900mm 4.5Db Arial.

Get a in car unit you could probably get 2 used ones for the price of one new one, set one up in the car and one up in the pit to get you started the rest of the crew could probably get away with sone half decent hand held unit’s.

Just remember anyone with a UHF will be able to hear you if you are in range, you also don’t want to be on a repeater channel because you will be broadcast across the range of the repeater.

XRQTR · 09-10-2006, 08:55 PM

Whats a repeater channel??

Donny · 09-10-2006, 10:40 PM

If you get a car one, go looking on e-bay for a Philips FM92 remote head unit, they can easily be programmed, and they pump out 25 watts. I have 3 of them, and mine has the UHF cb bands in them, and police receive, or if you want new, get Icom IC-400Pro, fully programmable and capable of upto 40 watts output.
If hand helds, you get what you pay for here, and I recommend some decent Icom Units, (UHF CRS band 476.425-477.400 from memory), get IC40-G or the newer Programmable IC-40S, both full simplex/duplex. Full 5 watts standard, with hi/lo power levels. For the cheaper ones, the little Uniden models available are fine for short range, and you can get them upto 2 watts transmit, but you must pay xtra to add the duplex circuit into them, they are simplex only from standard.
GME Electrophone/Philips/Icom/Uniden are all good units. I prefer the commercial programmables as they are built to take more abuse, and the internals are usually over engineered (Philips and Icom)......

fmc351 · 10-10-2006, 04:57 AM

With UHF, aeriel position isnt important for keeping signal integrity if you get one with independent ground.

If you mount a basic UHF aerial straight to the car, it will effect it, and centering it is best. Basically, the aerial radiates out from the vehicle, and if not grounded with an independent ground, will have an eratic area of coverage, given a vehicles shape, without independent ground, centring will not help anyway. By using the independent ground, that is eliminated and the aerial can be mounted anywhere without effecting signal integrity. The independant ground is the short (maybe 20cms) fatter pole section, to which an aerial is mounted.

Any aerial can be used via coax and an appropriate connector to fit to one of the Uniden or GME handheld 5 watt units, and they should be able run of the cig lighter socket with a battery eliminator pack, if they dont have direct facility for it.

Something else to consider. UHF aerials come in dB ratings. The higher the db, the further it will reach, but sacrifices close range comms. A 9dbI aerial will get much further than a 4dbI aerial, but if for example you were 200 mtrs away, and 50 ft under the height of the sender, you could hear nothing. Whereas with a 4dbI, you would hear them. Picture a ball around your aerial, radiating out equally to the extent of the power output (say 10km for a 4dbI aerial), that includes vertical, its a 3d ball. If you increase the db to 9, the ball becomes more like a flat disc <=>. Anything that sits outside the shape hears nothing. They gain distance by flattening out the 3d range, using the vertical to create horizontal increases.

UHF is line of sight. Whereas AM and SSB (27mhz) will technically go around corners. UHF relies on reflected signals (or bounce) to get through when line of sight is not possible, if no reflection is possible, no communication is possible either.

There are repeaters for UHF. These serve to increase the distance of UHF transmission to anything upto a 100-150km radius. Ive heard of better with a homebased YAGI aerial and a decent UHF unit pumping an illegal 25watts. Yes, more than 5 watts, is ILLEGAL. Basically you transmit on one frequency to a tower somewhere, and that tower relays your transmission via an alternative frequency from a much greater height, at good output wattage. Your radio will automatically switch between the transmit frequency and receive frequency when you press or depress the transmit button without you knowing it. Ie: You select the channel that is reserved for the repeater and press the duplex button, repeaters are always on channels 1-8 (different repeaters use a different one of these, and only one in each area). For this example lets say ch 2, when you press the mike button to talk, the unit auto switches to 32 and transmits on that frequency, the repeater receives on 32, and rebroadcasts your message back out on ch 2, when you depress your mike, your unit auto switches back to 2. Anyone responding will hear it on ch 2, and they go through the same thing described to comm back to you. This is duplex mode, or repeater mode. All modern UHF radios and most quality old ones have this feature. The question is, is there a repeater in your vacinity? And is it constantly monopolised by a few imbiciles with converted commercial 25watt radios. UHF was once a refuge for decent radio folk to escape the imbiciles on 27mhz, now UHF is the new 27Mhz.

For car to car, short distance, ie: truck to truck for radar chit chat, UHF is perfect, and crystal clear. But has limitations.

Mhz.
The higher the megs, the tighter the signwave. The tighter the signwave, the more line of sight the unit is, however clarity is gained.

UHF is 477, whereas AM ans SSB are 27.

tickford2001 · 10-10-2006, 03:56 PM

wow thanks for all the info guys, seems there are a few fairly clued up people here when it comes to radios!

someone mentioned something about getting your own channel (ie. channel 41). How does that work? and how much does it cost?

i didnt think security was that big an issue, as we arent really transmitting anything "secret", but the fact that people could transmit in whenever they wanted would be an issue for sure, especially when we are at tracks like winton (next to the hume & truckies) and sandown (in a residential area with plenty of radio junkies!).

fmc351 · 10-10-2006, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickford2001

wow thanks for all the info guys, seems there are a few fairly clued up people here when it comes to radios!

someone mentioned something about getting your own channel (ie. channel 41). How does that work? and how much does it cost?

i didnt think security was that big an issue, as we arent really transmitting anything "secret", but the fact that people could transmit in whenever they wanted would be an issue for sure, especially when we are at tracks like winton (next to the hume & truckies) and sandown (in a residential area with plenty of radio junkies!).

CB (citizens band) can still suit. You could get one with CTCSS, or tonecall (Private lines) feature on the UHF unit. Its keys programmed (42) into the units to allow only transmissions with that key to be picked up by other units using that key. ie: you eliminate any other chatter from being heard, also provides some security. You can use the keys on each channel, so its 42 x 40 channels basically. However, there are limits as each key is not totally unique, and any radio with CTCSS etc, has those 42 keys. Or theres DPL (Digital Private Line) which is similar but has 83 per channel, and can be inverted giving an additional 83 per channel. So chances of getting someone elses are remote, but still possible. Id imagine these are the cheapest options.

But thats UHF CB, UHF CB frequency range is Ch1 at 466.425 mhz and runs upto ch40 at 477.460. By using a frequency outside that range (UHF covers 450mhz to 520mhz), you wont get the air traffic anyway, but still could. The channel just needs to not be in use by emergency services, or owned by a business or some such. But these require licences to do so legally. Im not sure what the licence is worth though, IIRC its something like $400 per year, maybe its for longer, plus the cost of radios.

Im far from an expert, Im barely scratching the surface of radio. Definately agree with XAGT Coupe on the Icoms, but I seem to recall budget being mentioned.

be careful buying hte Phillips FM series units off ebay etc, theres various bands, some of which are usable, others are uniquely commercial and require licences, or a new eprom fitted. That can get costly, and the techs usually like to detune them to the legal 5watts.

bathurst77 · 10-10-2006, 07:08 PM

Have a look at
http://www.jemmex.com.au/fdc/fdc460a.htm

We have been importing these 5Watt UHF handhelds for about 6 months now and they work fabulous. (and cant be beat for the price)
We also have speaker mics and car battery eliminators.

fmc351 · 10-10-2006, 07:26 PM

Thats a lot of features for $150. Who makes it, and where?

atec77 · 10-10-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickford2001

just wondering if anyone has any knowledge on UHF/CB radios.

what i need to do is put together a system that can be used for car to pit crew and pit crew to car communication...and i need to do it on a tight budget! My experience with radios extends about as far as using the little hand held units on car cruises!

from what i can tell a unit with between 3 & 5 watts output should do the job, although I think we could probably get away with 1.5-2 watts, but this might get a bit sketchy at places like phillip island and bathurst, so ill probably just stick to a 5w unit.

i think to start with im looking for a a hand held unit for the car, and one or two for team manager and no.1 mechanic. They would need to be able to take a headset for crew, ear piece for driver, and both would need ptt.

can anyone tell me how does the mhz level come into the equation? or anyone have any advice at all about radios that might affect what i include in my setup?

dave

Scan Ebay for Jingtong , a bloke in hongkong will help you with hand helds starting around $60.00 per unit landed , now which town you in ?

wodahs · 10-10-2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickford2001

wow thanks for all the info guys, seems there are a few fairly clued up people here when it comes to radios!

someone mentioned something about getting your own channel (ie. channel 41). How does that work? and how much does it cost?

i didnt think security was that big an issue, as we arent really transmitting anything "secret", but the fact that people could transmit in whenever they wanted would be an issue for sure, especially when we are at tracks like winton (next to the hume & truckies) and sandown (in a residential area with plenty of radio junkies!).

every channel is an independent frequency with a standard set got 40 standard frequency but you can go to two way shops (not just the retail store) and get an independant frequency fitted

where i work we have 25 trucks , they all have uhf 40 channel + our private channel + 8 cop channels (which we can only lissen to)

was cheaper to buy the 40 channel uhf and they came with cop channels and then add our uhf channel to the set (we already had our own channel) than to get sets that only ran our channel (our old sets started dieing so they got new ones)

MO · 10-10-2006, 08:25 PM

Well as I see it you have three options:
1.go uhf with your own private channel,

2. go hf its unlimited and no one else will be using.

3. go 27meg nobody uses this its so out of date.

As for car aerials use magnetic mounts.

tickford2001 · 11-10-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Have a look at
http://www.jemmex.com.au/fdc/fdc460a.htm

We have been importing these 5Watt UHF handhelds for about 6 months now and they work fabulous. (and cant be beat for the price)
We also have speaker mics and car battery eliminators.

that does seem like a good buy, and the accessories seem well priced as well - can you program in a channel for me like some of the other guys have mentioned?

Quote:

Scan Ebay for Jingtong , a bloke in hongkong will help you with hand helds starting around $60.00 per unit landed , now which town you in ?

hand helds for 60 bucks?! sounds too good to be true! im in berwick

Quote:

3. go 27meg nobody uses this its so out of date.

after reading what everyone is saying about 27meg i had been wondering about going with this option - seems more powerful from what i have read, and no one is using it...getting the units might be an issue but i suppose second hand is an option

bathurst77 · 11-10-2006, 09:27 AM

To answer your questions, They are made in China (but are very sturdy strong and reliable) and i do program them. I mostly sell them to Hams (Amateur Radio operators)
(there is also a VHF version (Marine and 2metre) available for hams)
Feel free to email me the email address is on the webpage.

tickford2001 · 11-10-2006, 11:44 AM

just to add something, can anyone clarify just what legal and what is not legal out of all these things that have been suggested?

i would like to ensure that my setup is 100% "by the book" so to speak...

fmc351 · 11-10-2006, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tickford2001

just to add something, can anyone clarify just what legal and what is not legal out of all these things that have been suggested?

i would like to ensure that my setup is 100% "by the book" so to speak...

Basically all is legal. Except >5watts in CB channels(Citizens Band, 40 UHF (477mhz), 40AM (27mhz) and 80SSB (27mhz) which is made up of (40 Upper Side Band, 40 Lower Side Band)) SSB is useless for your purposes, its for statewide, interstate and international comms.

your own frequency (channel) requires a licence though. Licences require a test, and a short course (weekend at a radio club) to illustrate you can operate it without interfering with other frequencies (you get a callsign, ie: vk????). There are issues with interfering with emergency response radios (police, fire, ambo, SES etc), and interfering with someone elses owned frequency (companies and couriers etc), so you have to know youre not on one of those, or bleeding into it.

If you want my advice, so far, the chinese handhelds above at $150 a pop sound good. You said price was a concern, so CB UHF is that as much as any can be. The alternatives require you to get a programmable radio like that anyway, plus the cost of the frequency licence. UHF CB can utilise CTCSS and give you some degree of privacy on that line. Reliability and so forth is your call, I have no knowledge of those units, but I am considering getting one now. Damn, they are packed with features for the buck. CTCSS being most useful to you. And the ability to add a frequency via programming later if so desired.

Just an FYI
27mhz is good for distance transmissions, like rally situations, but Sandown, nah, UHF wll cover that no worries. UHF is limited in distance (beyond ??20km?? without repeaters).
UHF is good at penetrating walls etc, whereas 27mhz will just bounce off it.

So, you could use UHF in a network of tunnels fairly successfully (within reason), while 27mhz would be useless in that situation.

flappist · 11-10-2006, 12:18 PM

Simple view of the law as far as this stuff is concerned.

Commercial operations must be by approved equipment on licenced frequencies by people described in the licence.
e.g. If my company has a licence for operation of a frequency then my company can use approved equipment on that frequency for the purpose of communication for my company. Others cannot use it and I cannot use it for other purposes.

UHF CB operations must be on approved equipment on the 40 channels of the 477Mhz CB band. This can be for any legal purpose. There is a 5w limit and the equipment must be approved by ACA.

Amateur radio (hams) can use anything within their allocated bands and are responsible for any interference. They have much higher power limits.

Possession of any radio equipment is legal, it is the usage of it that is not legal.

This is not end of the world stuff but some of this equipment is capable of transmitting in the 466-469Mhz band where most of the emergency services reside. This means they can potentially interfere with or purposely jam Police, Ambulance, SES or Fire services.

It is also capable of transmitting on a lot of the V8SC comms & telemetry freqs particularly the Holden ones (most of the Ford ones are around 500Mhz).

Basicly in the hands of an idiot these things can be dangerous.

Bottom line.....

If the radio you buy is approved for the use you buy it and you comply with the operating requirements then life is groovy.

If the radio equipment is not approved and/or you use it for illegal purposes you might find yourself in a world of hurt.
It would not be a long stretch in this time a paranoia and bureaucratic ramboism for the "powers that be" to suggest that possession of equipment capable of jamming police in a high powered motor vehicle (a dodgy CB in a slightly modded XR6T) to be a terrorist escape vehicle or whatever even if all you are doing is cruising with your mates on a Saturday night.

You are all adults, make your own decission.

LTDHO · 11-10-2006, 01:06 PM

What's the disadvantages from running 27Meg??

jimt3te50 · 11-10-2006, 01:13 PM

you can get an inter-glass aerial (like a car phone setup with metalised ground plane strip)- I've got one on mine and used them for about 6 years- they're fantastic and not ugly at all.

I get around a 10km-12km range on the open road on UHF 40. Also run it with the little TX3200 (I think) UHF- very small, neat and well featured UHF.

frost · 11-10-2006, 05:13 PM

So me running 2 25w Motorola MCS2000's are illegal?

Donny · 11-10-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frost

So me running 2 25w Motorola MCS2000's are illegal?

Who cares if they are illeagal, 25 watts may just be the diffrence one day between getting the coverage you need and not getting it. I have stuffed round with CB's since the mid 80's, and none of my riggs were ever standard 5 watts. Thats like having a 5 story turkey perch on a hyaundai......

fmc351 · 11-10-2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frost

So me running 2 25w Motorola MCS2000's are illegal?

If tuned to CB channels, yes. Only an issue if your state still has RI's (Radio Inspectors), they can confiscate units, and I believe vehicles if car mounted, and impose hefty fines. Without RI's, the focused policing is absent, but the laws remain. Police can act on them too, if they know. If you interfere with someone, you will only know once a complaint is lodged, and you are pursued.

Another drama is, its potentially possible for you to set off explosives which are detonated by radio detonation switches. Ever seen those signs that say switch off all transmitters and recievers? They are setup at a distance from the danger that is designed for 5 watts, at 25 watts, you potentially enter the danger zone kilometres before you are warned of it. Its not a certainty, but is a possibility.

The everyday drama of 25 watts, is no-one else can get over you. Might seem like the ideal plan, we've all had numbnuts who deliberately drop dead carriers over the air for kicks and giggles. They wont drown you out, depending. However, its a real drama when someone who needs help, can get out because youre chatting away at 25watts.

Just for reference, Ive got 2 SSB sets (27mhz), all at legal settings, and Ive spoken to Tassie from Qld in a mobile setup with a 1.1mt helical whip. Its more relevant to have a decent setup, power mike, and properly SWR'ed aerial.

My old Uniden 077 UHF is at 5 watts, and does exactly what its designed for. 6dBI ground plane independent aerial and keys the repeater from 20+ km away, and car to car upto 15km in open country.

flappist · 11-10-2006, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xagt_coupe

Who cares if they are illeagal, 25 watts may just be the diffrence one day between getting the coverage you need and not getting it. I have stuffed round with CB's since the mid 80's, and none of my riggs were ever standard 5 watts. Thats like having a 5 story turkey perch on a hyaundai......

Who cares about child pornography or speed limits or terrorism or drugs or rape or murder or anything....
Laws are for the other people, not me.......