lowering = springs (+ shocks)???

sumpPUMP · 04-02-2009, 02:55 PM

hey guys,

just a few questions:

i've found some lovell springs i might get, but if i lower it 55mm will i need shockies aswell?

and if i dont get some shocks, will it damage anything over time?

Also, will i need a camber kit or of the likes?

cheers..

819_FLY · 04-02-2009, 05:59 PM

I guess gettin shockies to match the springs is so that you have full stroke of your suspension still, lowering with your current shockies wont give you full stroke of your suspension and they will wear out faster. Matching shockies to springs will ensure you get the best ride quality possible and peace of mind not blowing any seals on your shockies when it bottoms out on something harsh. Apparently the rears have a tendancy to create camber, but I don't know the full details.

orsest170 · 04-02-2009, 08:14 PM

55mm?! You will have no end of problems! The car will lose almost all suspension travel (and yes the shocks will wear out much faster) and ride like a pig. You will definitely have negative camber issues, and the associated tyre wear problems. You'll also have to avoid curbs and speed humps like the plague.... But if looks are your primary concern, then go ahead, because there's no question it will look great. But if you want to continue actually enjoying driving the car, I'd get something like Eibach prokit springs. You'll only get about a 30mm drop (still looks much better), and it'll still ride nicely, and won't be totally impractical.

mudwaa · 04-02-2009, 09:41 PM

Similar drop to Kings SLs. Ride is still acceptable. Shortened shocks may be the go but ill wait til i put 30k on it to change the struts out. Rear camber may be a prob only if you cant afford to replace rubber. Speed humps are just that. Designed to be driven over slowly which i do and have no problem. Now getting in and out of the driveway with the Zetec front end, now that was an issue before i lowered it. Now just impossible. But of course it looks fast just standing still and combo'd with whiteline sways goes thru corners like nothing else. Make up you own mind.

Mullett · 04-02-2009, 10:34 PM

If you want to drop that low, get coilovers, and get good ones. You'll need rear camber bolts or an adjustable upper arm (if they make them) because the excessive rear camber will chew out tyres, kill wheel bearings and cause undesirable on-the-limit handling.

Next question: are you talking a 55mm drop on the standard CL ride height, or the lower Zetec/XR5 ride height?

-RM.

sumpPUMP · 06-02-2009, 11:48 AM

hmm im at standard zetec height at the moment, maybe i dont trash my car with it goin that low..

30mm sounds good, ive heard eibachs are really good quality and value for money but i guess i'll have to dig deep for them and the shorter shocks bcoz i love the quality ride in the focus.

thanks guys.

any estimate prices for these from WA?

thanks again.

Mullett · 06-02-2009, 01:09 PM

www.european-parts.net have them, including postage they'll be about $400 for the Eibach springs with the current exchange rate. For that drop the standard shocks will probably be fine for the mean time, of course better shocks are going to give you a major performance increase. Think carefully about your long term plans, because if you're paying for postage, you might as well pay in one hit, a set of really good quality coilovers from the same place will be about $1400-1600 including postage. Keeping in mind that Koni shocks are $1200 for the focus, that's not bad value, and when you sell the car you'll be able to sell the coilovers off again. If you're paying someone to install them, then I'd get the coilovers without a second thought...two lots of install racks up very quickly ($300-500), and nothing will compete with the coilovers for performance and adjustability. They're also very straightforward to install, much more so than just the springs as the coilover strut is a bolt-in unit.

-RM.

sumpPUMP · 06-02-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mullett

www.european-parts.net have them, including postage they'll be about $400 for the Eibach springs with the current exchange rate. For that drop the standard shocks will probably be fine for the mean time, of course better shocks are going to give you a major performance increase. Think carefully about your long term plans, because if you're paying for postage, you might as well pay in one hit, a set of really good quality coilovers from the same place will be about $1400-1600 including postage. Keeping in mind that Koni shocks are $1200 for the focus, that's not bad value, and when you sell the car you'll be able to sell the coilovers off again. If you're paying someone to install them, then I'd get the coilovers without a second thought...two lots of install racks up very quickly ($300-500), and nothing will compete with the coilovers for performance and adjustability. They're also very straightforward to install, much more so than just the springs as the coilover strut is a bolt-in unit.

-RM.

Are these the ones, the springs and shocks for front and rear?

http://www.european-parts.net/catalo...roducts_id=484

sorry ive never done this so im lacking a bit of knowledge.

orsest170 · 06-02-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumpPUMP

hmm im at standard zetec height at the moment, maybe i dont trash my car with it goin that low..

30mm sounds good, ive heard eibachs are really good quality and value for money but i guess i'll have to dig deep for them and the shorter shocks bcoz i love the quality ride in the focus.

thanks guys.

any estimate prices for these from WA?

thanks again.

I ordered a set from EP for a work mate (he's getting them fitted today by the Ford dealership) who has a black TDCI in Mandurah (you might see him around). They cost about $430 landed if you use the premium postage service, and about $370 if you are prepared to wait a while.

Lane Ford is charging him $250 for fitting, which means a total of $680 for him. One of the local Mandurah suspension shops quoted $200, so that would mean a total cost of $570 if you used the slower postal service. Better still, if you know someone who can fit them for you, it could cost as little as $370. Not bad for a seriously good set of springs.

The springs alone cost skyward of $600 if you buy them locally.

Mullett · 07-02-2009, 12:56 AM

*bilstein*

*eibach*

The Bilsteins will be $200 AU more, but either of them will be a very, very good package.

-RM.

dzl ford · 07-02-2009, 01:21 AM

Yeah thanks to orsest170 for all the help. I got them fitted today looks really good i will post some pics tomorrow after she gets a wash.

RJO89 · 07-02-2009, 01:37 PM

The rear springs are easy as pie to install. The fronts are a lot harder. I changed the rears in my car and got Pedders to install the fronts and do a wheel alignment, and it cost me $120. So consider your options of home installation too. And rest assured, rear installs are really, REALLY easy...

nickOH · 07-02-2009, 07:47 PM

No offence to the Eibach fan boys here.

But please stop lying. If you lower your car 50mm on King's SL's with stock shocks you will have NO PROBLEMS. I had it done to my car over a month ago and got a wheel alignment at the same time. The results of the wheel alignment showed that it had more camber than originally, BUT, it was all within factory settings.

The ride quality is fine. Take it from me, I have 17inch wheels on my LR with SL's and it's fine. If you wanted a nice soft ride you wouldn't lower in the first place. It feels like a car should and hugs the road. Also, 50mm looks FAR better than 30mm, it sits just above the wheels and overall looks great.

So obviously it's a common myth around here that any lower than 30mm is going to cause HUGE problems. There's no real difference. The rear can be aligned, unlike what I was told on here. I saw the guys do it in front of my very own eyes. If you want looks go for the SL's and you won't regret it. Otherwise be a euro fan boy and get the expensive Eibach, with a minimal drop.

Mullett · 07-02-2009, 08:52 PM

I think you're taking that a little far. King springs are a very, very basic spring, they pick on an stiffness (say, stock +30%) and a height (say -50mm) and they basically copy a factory spring with the new specs. If all you're after is the 'sick, bro' look, and height is the most important thing to you, then by all means get the king springs (which are no cheaper than the Eibachs unless you know where to get them). The key difference is that the Eibachs are produced from much finer grades of material, using a superior process, and they are carefully tuned in an actual car on a handling circuit. Think of the difference between Munroe shocks and Konis. Yes, they both dampen spring movement. Yes, they both have oil and gas inside them. Which one would you rather have?

-RM.

nickOH · 08-02-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mullett

I think you're taking that a little far. King springs are a very, very basic spring, they pick on an stiffness (say, stock +30%) and a height (say -50mm) and they basically copy a factory spring with the new specs. If all you're after is the 'sick, bro' look, and height is the most important thing to you, then by all means get the king springs (which are no cheaper than the Eibachs unless you know where to get them). The key difference is that the Eibachs are produced from much finer grades of material, using a superior process, and they are carefully tuned in an actual car on a handling circuit. Think of the difference between Munroe shocks and Konis. Yes, they both dampen spring movement. Yes, they both have oil and gas inside them. Which one would you rather have?

-RM.

The difference is almost negligible for daily driving purposes. While I agree with you to a certain extent, it's not going to make any real difference for your average driver. It's basically like taking the generic medicine and comparing it to the branded version. Sure, they are different, but it's nothing to write home about.

Eibach are a good spring, no doubt. But I am so sick of people bad mouthing King's SL's, or any spring other than Eibach. They are no problems using King's, much the same as using Eibach. I think people should be educating others with unbiased opinions, not with common myths. A 50mm drop is not a dirty word, it's easily achieved with no huge problems.

nickOH · 08-02-2009, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumpPUMP

hey guys,

just a few questions:

i've found some lovell springs i might get, but if i lower it 55mm will i need shockies aswell?

and if i dont get some shocks, will it damage anything over time?

Also, will i need a camber kit or of the likes?

cheers..

Speaking of which, your from Mandurah WA.

I would highly recommend Wilkinson Suspension for you. Bit of a drive, but well and truly worth it!

819_FLY · 08-02-2009, 02:02 AM

Some people just seem to think spending the money on a name brand item gives them the best. Sure having a set of Tuned Eibachs would look good in your list of mods, but for everyday driving it is negligable and to really prove any difference in the performance between springs such as Kings and Eibach you have to take it to the track. People easily get crossed up between the definition of a street car and a race car so easily. These items are designed for street applications so they would perform similar under normal driving circumstances on public roads. If you want the best in suspension performance you would need to go coilover to benefit a decent ride on the streets and perform well when you take it out on the track.

Mullett · 08-02-2009, 03:48 PM

Sigh...ok, I'm going to wade into this mire here.

For street use, for the average buyer, yes, king springs are fine. No, Eibach are not the be-all and end all, but if you're talking an extra $50-70 over the cost of a $600 supply+install, I'd spend the extra coin. The difference is not so much the on-track difference, it's the ride comfort, the progressive rate change and the body control. All of the above said, shocks are far more important.

Also-re coilovers. A coilover unit is no different to a standard strut, except that it is adjustable. For competition use, it's also an easy way to have a standardised spring (most coilover springs are interchangeable, making it much cheaper to play with different spring rates), but the cheapest coilovers on the market (think D2) are still more expensive than a really nice set of springs and Koni adjustable shocks, which will be a far, far better package. To get a *good* set of coilovers is often over 3k. To be honest, I'm amazed that the bilstein coilovers from EP are the price they are, but to get the adjustable ones is still 3k landed. Note that neither package converts the rear end to true 'coilover' setup, it's simply an adjustable spring seat and a better shock.

-RM.

P.S. Yes, wilkinson suspension are really good to deal with (and dealers for Koni and King Springs), i can also recommend Malaga Springs and Suspension (who are dealers for Bilstein and Lovells).

atec77 · 08-02-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumpPUMP

hey guys,

just a few questions:

i've found some lovell springs i might get, but if i lower it 55mm will i need shockies aswell?

and if i dont get some shocks, will it damage anything over time?

Also, will i need a camber kit or of the likes?

cheers..

SImply put 55mm might be to much , if this would drop the guard edge much below the tyre top then it involves camber kits and rolling edges , I did it on an el a while back with rebound problems and very hard response , I just lowered an ef this morning 45mm without a problem and the steering is fine after a quick sort.. even the 235x15" wheels fit fine

BlackLS · 08-02-2009, 06:39 PM

55 is probably from standard height. The tyre is more or less inline with the top of the guard. No rebound prob.

orsest170 · 09-02-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickOH

No offence to the Eibach fan boys here.

But please stop lying. If you lower your car 50mm on King's SL's with stock shocks you will have NO PROBLEMS. I had it done to my car over a month ago and got a wheel alignment at the same time. The results of the wheel alignment showed that it had more camber than originally, BUT, it was all within factory settings.

The ride quality is fine. Take it from me, I have 17inch wheels on my LR with SL's and it's fine. If you wanted a nice soft ride you wouldn't lower in the first place. It feels like a car should and hugs the road. Also, 50mm looks FAR better than 30mm, it sits just above the wheels and overall looks great.

So obviously it's a common myth around here that any lower than 30mm is going to cause HUGE problems. There's no real difference. The rear can be aligned, unlike what I was told on here. I saw the guys do it in front of my very own eyes. If you want looks go for the SL's and you won't regret it. Otherwise be a euro fan boy and get the expensive Eibach, with a minimal drop.

Fan boys? I doubt any of us are either fan boys or brand snobs, and I'd happily purchase a cheaper, less reputable brand if I thought the quality was the same (and if they offered a product with a 30mm drop). But I believe you get what you pay for (most of the time), and it seems so to does the manager of one of W.A's most respected suspension specialists. He had the various local springs in stock and did not sell Eibachs, and yet when I questioned whether I should just buy cheaper King or Lovells, or spend a few extra dollars on Eibachs, he said to me (and I quote) "mate if you can get Eibachs for a good price, then get them, there is no comparison.....they are in a different league"

Reading between the lines, you seem to be suggesting that there is basically no difference in quality or performance and that you are simply paying for the name. Well as you can see, this seems to be at odds with the opinion of at least one suspension expert.....

I don't think any of the "Eibach fan boys" are after "a nice soft ride" either, they just want improved handling and appearance without totally compromising the ride quality and having the teeth chattering, bone jarring experience that Super lows offer. Yes, I know plenty of people running SL's have convinced themselves that the ride quality is fine, but the reality is that on anything other than flat and smooth roads, the ride is choppy and harsh, simple as that. The Eibach prokit springs do compromise ride quality too, but not nearly to the same extent. And expensive? Yes they can be, but not necessarily. I paid $330 landed from EP when the Aussie dollar was strong and fitted them with a friend at no cost to me.

And to suggest that there is no real difference between going 30mm or 55mm, just reeks of denial to me. The car becomes much less practical - those curbs and speed humps that are still able to be negotiated with Eibach's, are a definite no-go zone with the SL's. The car will also be much more susceptible to 'bottoming out', and on rough bits of bitumen, it will have a tendancy to 'tram track' and get quite unsettled. Again, those with totally 'slammed' cars will claim that this isn't an issue, or they couldn't care less.....

I'm not about promoting Eibachs and dismissing all other brands, I just want people to understand some of the issues they will face when they go super low. At the end of the day, those who are hell bent on giving their car the 'fully sick' treatment will go for the slammed look regardless of any advice given, and some will even live in total denial of all the compromises associated with it.....and then without even a hint of objectivity, defend their decision to the hilt and accuse others of bias! :rolleyes:

Mullett · 09-02-2009, 01:50 AM

Quick question: How do you find the Eibachs compared to the stock XR5 springs? Notable improvement? Ride quality?

-RM.

orsest170 · 09-02-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mullett

Quick question: How do you find the Eibachs compared to the stock XR5 springs? Notable improvement? Ride quality?

-RM.

Definitely an improvement in the handling department (better turn in and much less body roll), except on really rough roads where the added travel of the stock springs helps soak up the bumps. And despite what many people will tell you, some ride quality is sacrificed (imo you can't expect to go lower and stiffer and not lose ride comfort). They are still comfortable, but you certainly get more 'feedback', and even at only 17mm extra drop (XR5 is already 15mm lower) over stock, it will occasionally bottom out on nasty dips. Which is why I would never even consider going more than 40mm, let alone 55mm!

sumpPUMP · 09-02-2009, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orsest170

Definitely an improvement in the handling department (better turn in and much less body roll), except on really rough roads where the added travel of the stock springs helps soak up the bumps. And despite what many people will tell you, some ride quality is sacrificed (imo you can't expect to go lower and stiffer and not lose ride comfort). They are still comfortable, but you certainly get more 'feedback', and even at only 17mm extra drop (XR5 is already 15mm lower) over stock, it will occasionally bottom out on nasty dips. Which is why I would never even consider going more than 40mm, let alone 55mm!

Wow guys, thanks for all the feedback and info.

so you got the "30mm" drop from stock in eibachs?

I think thats where my decision is heading, if i cant afford those in the next month, i'll just have to go lovells at a similar height..

sumpPUMP · 09-02-2009, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackLS

55 is probably from standard height. The tyre is more or less inline with the top of the guard. No rebound prob.

and you have/had no camber or tyre wear problems?

how much did you pay for your kings/ and install?

cheers.

BlackLS · 09-02-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumpPUMP

and you have/had no camber or tyre wear problems?

how much did you pay for your kings/ and install?

cheers.

Yes have a camber problem. Causes the rear tyres to last 5000kms less than stock. Makes the back end grip better than standard.

Bought the springs for around 200, and had them fitted for free. Lowest point of the underside of the car is 11cm.

nickOH · 09-02-2009, 07:01 PM

My experience:

Before:

After:

sumpPUMP · 10-02-2009, 05:02 PM

nice, sits quite well on supalows. cheers for the pics

mudwaa · 11-02-2009, 06:12 PM

Yeah yeah. Eibach, Eibach, Eibach. Just how often do you guys actually take your cars to the track?

orsest170 · 11-02-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mudwaa

Yeah yeah. Eibach, Eibach, Eibach. Just how often do you guys actually take your cars to the track?

What exactly does the race track have to do with anything? Last time I checked Eibach Prokit springs were for everyday road cars and not exclusively for track cars. Believe it or not, when you fit top quality suspension components to a vehicle, you can appreciate the difference in everyday driving (especially when you live near some very twisty roads

), not just on the race track. Anyway, it's not just the performance or quality that made me go for Eibachs, it was the sensible drop that they offer.

Sorry if a few of you are getting sick of hearing about them, but there are several people on this forum running Eibach springs who are very happy with their purchase, so when someone asks a question about lowering springs, then naturally we will recommend the Eibachs.